[ QUOTE ]
1) Three of any sort can beat certain characters with ease.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's always someone who can beat you, there's never a way to win every single fight you come against.
[ QUOTE ]
2) Certain powers can be switched off; others can't.
[/ QUOTE ]
What you mean like Auto powers? Any power can be taken down by another player as long as it isn't an auto or a click - End Drain, Toggle droppers.
[ QUOTE ]
3) Secondary effects rule
[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone has secondary effects...
[ QUOTE ]
4) Preventing people gaining certain inspires/powers makes the playing field completely unlevel.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't really argue there.
[ QUOTE ]
5) A full volley from a Blaster (leaving Stamina on near to zero and no recharged powers) is required to floor a Mastermind (The Squishiest AT)
[/ QUOTE ]
...
Why does it take a team of Blasters (The most Damaging AT) to take down a MM when I know for certain I take them out frequently solo with my Scrapper?
[ QUOTE ]
6) Secondary powers that come under the main defence sets are close to useless.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't get what you mean.
[ QUOTE ]
7) Certain Powers bypass others with no problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like...? You mean like holds being able to stack over mez resist?
[ QUOTE ]
8) Defence is so low on some AT's that first strike wins.
[/ QUOTE ]
If someone takes the bother to sneak up on someone thus getting the advantage I think they deserve to win. How the hell else can it work?
[ QUOTE ]
9) -ability powers last far too long.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree here.
[ QUOTE ]
10) Once either side has gained a significant advantage; there is no longer a viable alternative to challenge them excepting getting twice the number of attackers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gained an advantage? Like how? You mean like Control of Sirens. Hmm, that's never stopped me or the people I speak with from kicking opposing [censored].
[ QUOTE ]
Nice try, but gankers and PvP Min/Maxs just rule the PvP zones, so what's the point in playing something built for the worst excesses of the game?
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, my Scrapper's build isn't PvP'd out yet I still own PvP zones. 
And by the way, Min/Maxers own PvE too.
[ QUOTE ]
PvP is and has always been a different game to PvE; so why run the two concurrently?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because PvP in this game is fun, and because PvE in this game is fun.
World of Jackcraft.
Winning specific fights would be nice. There is no point in me taking on a Controller or a Brute that's on full health because my effects cannot take place before they can effect me once and then kill me at leisure.
Powers like Flight etc. can be disabled for 30 Seconds; Hide recharges in 4. There is no way to re-enable flight if a -fly is applied to you. This is from one 'carrier' effect of a power; nothing to do with Toggle Drops/End Drains (which will floor most people)
Some secondary effects are better. Hold >> Sleep >> KB.
Team of Blasters? That's one blaster and 5 3slotted attacks on the weakest AT...
Most defence sets focus almost entirely on Smash/Lethal with Fire/Cold/Energy second. With almost no defences against Toxic/Psionic; these powersets will be at a considerable advantage for no reason.
Like AOE effects on Stealth/Hidden characters. I have been terrorised and AS'd whilst invisible. This is almost primarily due to IR-Goggles and/or Leadership which renders these powers useless. Can you think of any power which renders another Defence set useless?
With Defence being lowered to silly levels; there is no real strategy over First Strike Wins, as the secondary effect of the First Strike usually forces the Second strike to bypass all the defences unless it's a defence based character. Why else have they given the Range masters abilities only useful in Close Combat?
-abilities last for 10-30 Seconds. Any reasonable AT can finish me in 5. That's too long without any escape route. (Considering I will have lost any travel powers; and theirs will still be active)
Once the Heros/Villains have control over Siren's Call; the winning side is able to one-shot; and the losing side is not able to purchase defences. This seems very overpowered.
Scrappers/Stalkers have High Damage Inherents, High Defence
Powers and played properly 'should' dominate any Close Combat. PvP has been forced to Close Combat due to the inherent problems with making combat ranged. The Inherent problem with Ranged Combat only can be easily seen in PvE; where Stalkers/Scrappers are left at a disadvantage.
PvP is fun when you're winning; PvE is fun even when you're losing.
I have had fun in the PvP zones, but there's an element of competitiveness above and beyond normal fair play which turns a lot of PvP into 'avoid the gankers'.
That's not really fun; and the game encourages it.
Just a couple of things.
Stalkers do not have high defensive powers I can assure you, in my Ninjitsu set I have Kuji-In Retsu, and that lasts a few minutes, after that I'm down to using hit and run tatctics.
As for close combat, if an AS has the desired effect it may be worth for CQC, otherwise against a tank or Regen it's a waste of time without the appropiate back up.
Stalkers aren't built for 1 v 1 in PvP
Step 1: Open your attack with Assassin Strike ALWAYS
Step 2: Finish your opponant depending on their Build/AT
Step 2 b: Fall into the Shadows =p
4 seconds when I can't target you as an Inherent against being targetted instantly with a tier 2 power pool?
That means the Squishy part of a team is rapidly removed; and I think the 5 Stalkers could pile on a Granite Tank after they've removed the Invuln Scrapper, Blaster, Controller and Defender who can't see them coming?
Masterminds also add the element of PvE that PvP builds cannot properly deal with.
As a constructive soloution, I'd prefer to see MM pets using the PvP targetting; and the Hide recharge increased; but the range of Stalkers other attacks/defences increased slightly to cope.
There's no point in having a character that is excessive damage/ineffectual defence as ED eliminated the chance for other AT's to take that choice.
[ QUOTE ]
Winning specific fights would be nice. There is no point in me taking on a Controller or a Brute that's on full health because my effects cannot take place before they can effect me once and then kill me at leisure.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're talking about your Blaster right? And you're afraid of Brutes? And you're */Energy aren't you?
Let me guess you didn't take Bone Smasher/Energy Punch because when you use them in missions 'you die'. Well let me tell you now not only are Bone Smasher/Energy Punch some of the most feared powers in PvP, they're also damn good powers in PvE. As a matter of fact I'd be willing to go as far as saying Blasters can't be very effective anymore without their very high damage melee attacks from their secondary. In PvE.
That part is purely assumption on my part, correct me if I'm wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
Powers like Flight etc. can be disabled for 30 Seconds; Hide recharges in 4. There is no way to re-enable flight if a -fly is applied to you. This is from one 'carrier' effect of a power; nothing to do with Toggle Drops/End Drains (which will floor most people)
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh but what happened to all the +perception powers which render invisibility useless?
[ QUOTE ]
Some secondary effects are better. Hold >> Sleep >> KB.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I disagree, you can't get knockback protection from Break Frees, but you can get protection from hold/sleep from Break Frees.
[ QUOTE ]
Most defence sets focus almost entirely on Smash/Lethal with Fire/Cold/Energy second. With almost no defences against Toxic/Psionic; these powersets will be at a considerable advantage for no reason.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sets that do Toxic/Psi damage don't tend to do very high damage in the first place...
[ QUOTE ]
Like AOE effects on Stealth/Hidden characters. I have been terrorised and AS'd whilst invisible. This is almost primarily due to IR-Goggles and/or Leadership which renders these powers useless. Can you think of any power which renders another Defence set useless?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually Focused Accuracy makes SR Scrappers cry, Tactics and Fortitude too. But when someone doesn't have an acc debuff they aren't getting hit by as many secondary effects as the resistance sets are.
[ QUOTE ]
-abilities last for 10-30 Seconds. Any reasonable AT can finish me in 5. That's too long without any escape route. (Considering I will have lost any travel powers; and theirs will still be active)
[/ QUOTE ]
Break Frees for the win?
[ QUOTE ]
Once the Heros/Villains have control over Siren's Call; the winning side is able to one-shot; and the losing side is not able to purchase defences. This seems very overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have mixed feelings about this system which I can't be bothered to go into.
[ QUOTE ]
Scrappers/Stalkers have High Damage Inherents, High Defence
Powers and played properly 'should' dominate any Close Combat. PvP has been forced to Close Combat due to the inherent problems with making combat ranged. The Inherent problem with Ranged Combat only can be easily seen in PvE; where Stalkers/Scrappers are left at a disadvantage.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're saying a Scrapper should dominate a melee let's say... Blaster in close combat? Please...
[ QUOTE ]
PvP is fun when you're winning; PvE is fun even when you're losing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I couldn't agree less, PvP is actually challenging, where as the PvE game is completely predictable. I find PvP fun when I'm losing, and for the record I don't even find PvE fun at all anymore since it's not a challenge.
World of Jackcraft.
[ QUOTE ]
That part is purely assumption on my part, correct me if I'm wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, you're right. But that just points to the fact that PvE/PvP are different games. Certain AT's need to respec between modes and that seems silly. Respecs are a personal bane as they take ages, cost a lot and ruin the idea of RP.
+Perception I mention later. Rendering a Power Pool useless is a workaround rather than a viable use.
KB has it's uses; but it doesn't work on Aerial foes; doesn't toggle drop and doesn't stop powers being queued.
[ QUOTE ]
Sets that do Toxic/Psi damage don't tend to do very high damage in the first place...
[/ QUOTE ] But have a high rate of damage and crippling secondaries.
[ QUOTE ]
Break Frees for the win?
[/ QUOTE ] Which you can't buy if the other side is dominating; and with my 20 slots (BF's working for about 5 seconds) that gives me a five minute fighting before I have to leave the zone. That's not inculding the space I'd like to leave for CaB's and Respites.
[ QUOTE ]
You're saying a Scrapper should dominate a melee let's say... Blaster in close combat? Please...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yes... Scrappers are 'Boss Killers' so a competent Scrapper should be able to decimate any AT in fair, close range 1 on 1. That's their original vision. Blasters have range for a reason.
Chuck Norris will kick Rambo's guts if he can get in to use a roundhouse. If Rambo sees him coming and gets the drop on him, he's gonna get a severe case of lead poisoning.
Challenge is good. Having to de-rationalise RP, ignore PvE and then fall prey to 'ganking methods' (TP Foe/Permahold) isn't.
[ QUOTE ]
No, you're right. But that just points to the fact that PvE/PvP are different games.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought I pointed out that Bone smasher/Energy punch were VERY good PvE powers, just as good as they are in PvP.
Here want some build advice? For PvE? Drop Power Bolt and get Bone Smasher, you'll do more damage that way, which is what you're meant to do as a Blaster anyway.
[ QUOTE ]
But have a high rate of damage and crippling secondaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't have a higher rate of damage than other things, actually, they need the secondary effects to be anywhere near in line with the rest.
[ QUOTE ]
Which you can't buy if the other side is dominating; and with my 20 slots (BF's working for about 5 seconds) that gives me a five minute fighting before I have to leave the zone. That's not inculding the space I'd like to leave for CaB's and Respites.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually you can't buy them at all in Sirens which is obviously where you're talking about. Tier 1 Break Frees actually last for 30 seconds, you don't need to use them all the time. I'm getting from your posts that your tactics just aren' great. As a Blaster, having no mez resists or defences you need to stay the hell away from anyone who can and will hurt you bad, pick your targets, go for the kill and if you don't get it get the hell away and better luck next time.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, yes... Scrappers are 'Boss Killers' so a competent Scrapper should be able to decimate any AT in fair, close range 1 on 1. That's their original vision. Blasters have range for a reason.
Chuck Norris will kick Rambo's guts if he can get in to use a roundhouse. If Rambo sees him coming and gets the drop on him, he's gonna get a severe case of lead poisoning.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, any good Blaster (yes that includes PvP and PvE) will ownge a Scrapper in close quarters. Fact. (Ok, not including Devices Blasters but they need to use different tactics.
Well it's more like Silvester Stilone (Blaster) vs Clubber Lang. Rocky beats Clubber in a punch up (going by the second fight here 
) and Rambo blows the [censored] out of Clubber at a distance. Unless we're talking Spines Scrappers.
World of Jackcraft.
[ QUOTE ]
KB has it's uses; but it doesn't work on Aerial foes; doesn't toggle drop and doesn't stop powers being queued.
[/ QUOTE ]
It might not stop powers from being queued, but it sure does stop them from being triggered, which gives you a big advantage. I always try to get a knockback in my attack chain, because I can always follow it up with at least 2 more attacks before the target is back on it's feet and attacking back.
Also, I don't completely agree that PVP builds nuke your PVE game. At least not for blasters. Both my blasters are PVP built and they kick serious [censored] in PVE as well. It's just how you tend to play them. To me PVE is like PVP with really stupid enemies.
I agree with the roleplaying comment you made though. I personally don't see high concept Roleplay characters being effective in PVP, unless maybe their concept is being kick [censored] in PVP 
. The same can be said for roleplaying characters in PVE though.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, yes... Scrappers are 'Boss Killers' so a competent Scrapper should be able to decimate any AT in fair, close range 1 on 1. That's their original vision. Blasters have range for a reason.
[/ QUOTE ]
Disagree a bit. Scrappers shouldn't be able to kill Tanks in melee 1 v 1. Well they might be able to, but it will take forever. And a competent scrapper can still kill a blaster in melee range, but i really have to emphasize the word competent here(and maybe put an exclamation mark behind it or something).
I do agree a little bit on the range issue you bring up. I do think Blaster have an advantage in range, but i also think that that range is basically nullified by the damage of our ranged attacks after ED. Toggle dropping was always important, but now it's basically impossible to do any lasting damage without dropping toggles first. So a bit more ranged damage would be nice.
[ QUOTE ]
Step 1: Open your attack with Assassin Strike ALWAYS
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope
I usually favour impale, build up, placate, AS
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
[ QUOTE ]
You're talking about your Blaster right? And you're afraid of Brutes? And you're */Energy aren't you?
Let me guess you didn't take Bone Smasher/Energy Punch because when you use them in missions 'you die'. Well let me tell you now not only are Bone Smasher/Energy Punch some of the most feared powers in PvP, they're also damn good powers in PvE. As a matter of fact I'd be willing to go as far as saying Blasters can't be very effective anymore without their very high damage melee attacks from their secondary. In PvE.
That part is purely assumption on my part, correct me if I'm wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're completely correct. It would be very difficult for any blaster to kill even a defender or controller without melee, let alone a tank or a brute.
I personally find tanks and brutes (and scrappers to some extent) the easiest ATs to take down now in PvP. This is because after sniping them, they instantly want to get in to melee range with me to damage, which is exactly where I want them to be. I can then hit:
Build up, Energy punch, Bone smasher, Total focus(or not depending on zone), power thrust(3 slotted acc, rarely misses after the toggle drops), Zapp (which will activate before they get off the ground)
and more often than not, it equals a dead tank or scrapper. The stuns and toggle drops from Energy punch and Bone smasher are vital for doing this, aswell as their damage (only TB and Zapp have more damage then Energy punch in my Elec primary).
Obviously this doesnt always go as smoothly when fighting someone with more experience or with one of the particular powersets that cripple my game, but if you're struggling to kill anything with lots of toggles (invul especially) you're not using the set correctly, or to it's potential anyway.
I can also 2 shot any mastermind you like.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't completely agree that PVP builds nuke your PVE game. At least not for blasters. Both my blasters are PVP built and they kick serious [censored] in PVE as well. It's just how you tend to play them. To me PVE is like PVP with really stupid enemies.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do still enjoy PvE with mine, but it's built purely for PvP so I have no Aoes except TB, which can get very annoying.
Jupiter is slow looking into his notebook, but he always looks.
The [b]Retribution[/b] is coming.
[url="http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Valens_ii/"]Some of my toons[/url]
1) Three of any sort can beat certain characters with ease.
Three on one odds are fairly tight for most characters without using inspirations, and certain ATS are going to be weaker than others.. As a blaster I expect most enemies to get in close to kill "the glass cannon".
2) Certain powers can be switched off; others can't.
3) Secondary effects rule
As they do in pve, the only bonus to playing some powersets is the secondary effects, ive been saved many times in pve by my stuns or sleeps.
4) Preventing people gaining certain inspires/powers makes the playing field completely unlevel.
Thats something I find challanging, it means that I have another reason to do the missions in PvP so myself and other heroes can access them.
5) A full volley from a Blaster (leaving Stamina on near to zero and no recharged powers) is required to floor a Mastermind (The Squishiest AT)
Not allways true, but as a blaster I find that to take down any boss I must do this and more, and thats in pve.
6) Secondary powers that come under the main defence sets are close to useless.
7) Certain Powers bypass others with no problem.
8) Defence is so low on some AT's that first strike wins.
9) -ability powers last far too long.
10) Once either side has gained a significant advantage; there is no longer a viable alternative to challenge them excepting getting twice the number of attackers.
As a PvP "dabbler" I have great fun in sirens call, I play one of the weakest blaster sets you can have and I have made no effort to tailor my character for PvP, and I still can make villains run occasionaly
The problems I have in PvP are ones I think have their basis in the flaws of the AT, our damage output at range can be lower than our melee damage output and we are far from the "glass cannon" ideal.
I've seen ice blasters dominate the zone for hours, sending all they face running, or forcing them to gang up for protection.
And energy blasters seem to have great fun throwing people around, or just smashing stalkers and other ATs in melee.
problems i have in pvp is >
Hero to Villain ratio is like 10:1 lol
everytime i go to have a nice pvp fight i get multiganked/[censored]/pwnd and am ussualy dead by time i go to get 2nd hit in >>captain freon u will die someday :P <<
But nicest ever time i have had in PVP is a nice 1on1 with SinghMC lol , duel was going for a good 10mnutes or so lol
Over the last couple of days, I've clocked nearly 10 hours in Siren's, and the only time I didnt have fun was when I was the only character in there :-/ Still, the general thrust of this thread suggests that PvP is unbalanced. Sure, I'd agree. In the same way that Rock, Sissors, Paper is unbalanced. True, it can get more intricate, but can I point out something?
THERE IS NO DEBT FROM BEING KILLED BY ANOTHER PLAYER.
Even Silver Weasel, when cornered the other day, ran away with his sliver of health, instead of just accepting defeat. It's unsporting. Granted, I'll happily run through Siren's Call chasing ya (I have Super Jump triple Slotted with TWO SO's and a DO) with "Focus" armed and ready for you to fall within range. But when you've stood toe-to-toe with a scrapper (And against me, a Stalker no less) and you've lost all but a drop of your health, why not just accept it? Would you rather I ran away if I nearly lost? I doubt it.
Just wish people were a bit more sporting, considering there's no consequences.
I never run away. I make strategic withdrawls until such time as the odds are more favorable. Sound military tactics. To fight on when the battle is lost is the sort of stupidity that got so many soldiers killed during the first world war.
I really should do something about this signature.
Nah, I'd consider that running away. If you've stood your ground, and you're losing, and dead in one or two shots, then why bother running away?
NO DEBT.
Don't drag poinless semantics into the conversation. We're talking about a game where people run away, not a military campaign.
[ QUOTE ]
Nah, I'd consider that running away. If you've stood your ground, and you're losing, and dead in one or two shots, then why bother running away?
NO DEBT.
Don't drag poinless semantics into the conversation. We're talking about a game where people run away, not a military campaign.
[/ QUOTE ]
Running away is part of the game, and a skilful part aswell. Knowing exactly when to run and when to invis/phase takes practice, and there's nothing wrong with it at all!
Running to the safe zone is a whole different matter though..
Jupiter is slow looking into his notebook, but he always looks.
The [b]Retribution[/b] is coming.
[url="http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Valens_ii/"]Some of my toons[/url]
Thats what I mean. Running back to the hospital is nothing short of yellow. I mean, give me a second, I'll give you a shortcut at no extra charge...
[ QUOTE ]
5) A full volley from a Blaster (leaving Stamina on near to zero and no recharged powers) is required to floor a Mastermind (The Squishiest AT)
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're having that much trouble killing a MM then something is wrong...
My blaster can take down a brute and still have endurance left at the end (Ice/nrg...which is pretty end heavy anyway)
As people have said...you really need your melee powers here, and they are great in PvE as well.
[ QUOTE ]
Why does it take a team of Blasters (The most Damaging AT) to take down a MM when I know for certain I take them out frequently solo with my Scrapper?
[/ QUOTE ]
To both Hobo and Silver, when does it take an entire volley or a 'team' to take out a MM? I can easily 2 shot them into oblivion unless they have PFF running...
[ QUOTE ]
And by the way, Min/Maxers own PvE too.
[/ QUOTE ]
But they dont directly effect the level of dificult and enjoyment of others in PvE. Of course balancing is often done on min/maxed builds but people can see the effect directly in PvP.
Guild Wars covers PvP and PvE well, you dont have to have one "build" for both. If its in one game you have to decide what you're going to be good at, or try to do both well (and most likely be second best, not the worst).
I think that was the OP's point, but I dont know his mind.
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
But when you've stood toe-to-toe with a scrapper (And against me, a Stalker no less) and you've lost all but a drop of your health, why not just accept it? Would you rather I ran away if I nearly lost? I doubt it.
[/ QUOTE ]
If i beat someone down to a sliver of health of course I dont so much want them to stand there and wait for the finishing blow, I want to get the finish blow in before they run away. I certainly wouldnt stand around waiting for defeat unless it was an agreed fight to the death.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
distance blasters are good but some change in tactics are needed to maximise your chances in pvp. An effective but dangerous practice is defiancing which Daedra uses to deadly effect to one shot MMs
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why does it take a team of Blasters (The most Damaging AT) to take down a MM when I know for certain I take them out frequently solo with my Scrapper?
[/ QUOTE ]
To both Hobo and Silver, when does it take an entire volley or a 'team' to take out a MM? I can easily 2 shot them into oblivion unless they have PFF running...
[/ QUOTE ]
When the Blasters haven't slotted damage? 
World of Jackcraft.
[ QUOTE ]
To both Hobo and Silver, when does it take an entire volley or a 'team' to take out a MM? I can easily 2 shot them into oblivion unless they have PFF running...
[/ QUOTE ]
Aim and Build Up will allow you to 2 shot ANY mm, even with PFF running.
Jupiter is slow looking into his notebook, but he always looks.
The [b]Retribution[/b] is coming.
[url="http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Valens_ii/"]Some of my toons[/url]
1) Three of any sort can beat certain characters with ease.
2) Certain powers can be switched off; others can't.
3) Secondary effects rule
4) Preventing people gaining certain inspires/powers makes the playing field completely unlevel.
5) A full volley from a Blaster (leaving Stamina on near to zero and no recharged powers) is required to floor a Mastermind (The Squishiest AT)
6) Secondary powers that come under the main defence sets are close to useless.
7) Certain Powers bypass others with no problem.
8) Defence is so low on some AT's that first strike wins.
9) -ability powers last far too long.
10) Once either side has gained a significant advantage; there is no longer a viable alternative to challenge them excepting getting twice the number of attackers.
Nice try, but gankers and PvP Min/Maxs just rule the PvP zones, so what's the point in playing something built for the worst excesses of the game?
PvP is and has always been a different game to PvE; so why run the two concurrently?