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I've said it once and I'll say it again: Stalkers have one trick, and one trick only. You take away their ability to be the assassin class (which is what they're SUPPOSED to be) and you may as well remove the whole AT from the game.
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Nobody is suggesting we take away the stalkers ability to stalk or AS effectively, we're suggesting we make it harder for them to walk up to a circle of 8 heroes all covered in tactics, hiding behind overturned tables and wearing empty dishes as helmets, wearing 15 pairs of IR goggles each (wile-coyote style), then stand in front of said hero group wearing a full compliment of supernova-grade christmas tree lights, and use the dance and slap emotes for 15 hours without being spotted.
At the same time, if a stalker can stand nose-to-nose with a character/group running several +perception powers, for an extended period of time without even a flicker of visibility, something needs to be changed. That isnt removing a stalkers ability to stalk, thats called making a stalker WORK for their kill. Similarly, no hero should ever be able to instantly see a stalker either. I have heard of individuals spotting stalkers the moment they appear on the horizon, and whilst I find that sadisticly funny for some reason, that is just as unfair.
Its not hard to comprehend :
Stalker that cannot hide at all = Crippled, entirely unfair.
Stalker that can rub its bum in the face of a hero for 4 hours, whilst screaming out the "Crazy Frog" tune, but still be completely undetected save for hovering local chat saying "Baaaababadeeebabababaaaafweeee!!!11one" = Also totally unfair.
Balancing shouldnt just be just about tweaking the potency of powers, and as much as i'd love to say stalkers hiding abilities (not strikes) are just overpowered, I think the entire hide/detect deal is off balance. I dont mind being AS'ed if the stalker actually puts a remote amount of effort into stalking me, rather than just putting me on 'follow' whilst hidden, and having broadcast conversations until they so feel like AS'ing me.
For those stalkers who have found a hero who seems to detect them without fail, did you manage to take note of what level they were? Likewise, for us heroes who seem to have tried everything and cannot see a stalker, if possible, sacrifice a respawn to find out their level through the info..
[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, if a stalker can stand nose-to-nose with a character/group running several +perception powers, for an extended period of time without even a flicker of visibility, something needs to be changed
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They cant, 1 +perception yes, 2 +perception no. Can we bypass it breifly by dropping from sky and having AS ready to be clicked? yes.
Tactics + IR = seeable stalker
Tactics + Targeting Drone = seeable stalker
Tactics + SR = Seeable stalker
Targeting Drone + IR = Seeable stalker
etc
etc
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Obot, how many times do I have to point out that Tactics + IR goggles DO NOT REVEAL STALKERS (at least stalkers that has both Stealth and Hide). And I've also said that in a team where more than one person had tactics running, I still couldn't see stalkers untill "ASSASSIN STRIKE" appeared over the other person's head. (the one thing I HAVE learned is not to stay still for more than half a nanosecond at a time. HE apparently, hadn't learned this.) This was also with IR-Goggles.
I think maybe QiSnake made the point I've been wanting to make all along. With the current setup a stalker has ALL the initiative ALL the time. I have to work like a madman 100% of the time I'm in a pvp zone not to be one-shotted by a stalker (And yet, the one-shotting is NOT the problem), but a stalker can just stumble [cencored] drunk up to most anyone and fumble their weapon into someones eye without them noticing. there's no EFFORT on their side of the fight.
Now, if there is only three powersets that's able to even SEE the stalker, there's something wrong. EVERY at should have the POTENTIAL to see stalkers, but at the COST of something else. Tactics + IR-goggles don't work, there's no point in arguing about it. I know, I've been trying for -many- hours. I have sacrificed a lot of things that would have made me much more über in pve, just to be able to PvP against stalkers, and everything has been wasted, because I STILL can't see them, whatever I do. THIS IS ALSO A FACT. I wouldn't be complaining if it wasn't.
And to G_Zeus: -I- am not crying out for a nerf, I've said this -many- times. I just know it'll come, so I'm making suggestions to how they can do it instead.
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Sarcasm and/or exaggeration also are tools of somebody who is unable to remain 'on the level' when engaded within adult debate
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No, it's the tool of someone who is speaking to children that don't pay any attention to what is being said, because you OBVIOUSLY DON'T.
BTW: Riddle me this, sweetypies, if stalkers AREN'T über in pvp, howcome there's so many of them? I can honestly say that I've seen three times as many stalkers as any other villain AT combined. MM/Cor/Dom I see maybe a couple pr. week, Brutes I see maybe a couple every coulpe of days, but every time I go into sirens, there's at least one, but more often there are 3-5 of them. "oooh! It'th becauth thalkerth are the only new AT apart from MathterMind."... Yeah. and still, in PvE there are hardly ANY stalkers. Hmmmm... I REALLY have to put my brain in a vice to work THIS ONE OUT!
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I have heard of individuals spotting stalkers the moment they appear on the horizon, and whilst I find that sadisticly funny for some reason, that is just as unfair.
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I hadnt actually noticed this until today. I spotted a stalker coming towards me then quickly dissapear. Looks more like some sort of bug than a feature.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
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Obot, how many times do I have to point out that Tactics + IR goggles DO NOT REVEAL STALKERS (at least stalkers that has both Stealth and Hide). And I've also said that in a team where more than one person had tactics running, I still couldn't see stalkers untill "ASSASSIN STRIKE" appeared over the other person's head. (the one thing I HAVE learned is not to stay still for more than half a nanosecond at a time. HE apparently, hadn't learned this.) This was also with IR-Goggles.
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*sigh* how many last posts are you going to make? And to be honest I no longer care if you are able to get it working for you but the simple fact is I spend a great deal of time in Sirens call and know it DOES work as I speak to all people in there and we chat about things, "hmm you can see me now got IR goggles + tactics?" and so on
I run Stealth + Hide, 2 +perception powers (including the IR goggles temp power) CAN see me. Of course you could ahve been up against a stalker who had invisibility applied to him AS WELL, but thats a different issue
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
heh i do love stalker thread, personally i have no problem with stalkers on my defender and controller, for the same reason preparation, the only stalker i have a problem with is spines, mainly because of impale that ranged crit really does it for me, i think botty just needs 1 hit with BU and another to floor my troller and im a stormy 
. I run tactics +IR and i see all stalkers except from stealth +hide from a distance i can spot the stalker for a second and then closer i go in he disappears usually i pop an insight or 2 just to take those stealth stalkers.
As for stalkers having one trick hide, bah!!!, they have placate which is an excellent power. For the record on stalker defence if you haev 1 accuracy on youra ttacks and are fighting a well slotted stalker you have no chance and deserve to be ASed 1 accuracyin your attacks is NO way near enough for PvP. That is the problem your having right there.
Also for the OP there really aren't any problems in PvP, peronally i feel that concept builds just don't cut it in PvP, from your posts i think you need to rethink your build to make it more effective in PvP or rethink your tactics. thats all thats needed.
My Eng/Eng blaster is very concept, but at the same time, i know he will be good in PvP from past experiences with both power stes
If your going pure range on your blaster, don't have powers like bonesmasher and energy punch ie. seriously lacking melee damage, your not going to do well in PvP
Call it the urge to have the last word, and it's pretty clear that I'm not the only one that has it. 
I base my comments on personal experience, and what you are suggesting isn't working for me, and based on that, I'm guessing it doesn't work for other people too.
Another thing is that what I've suggested WOULDN'T ruin the Stalker AT like a nerf would. They'd still have an advantage over 90something % of the ppl. Problem is that you people aren't willing to give a centimeter of ground. You want all the advantages for yourself.
And I'm not suggesting these things because of the stalker AT, it's because of 95% of the PEOPLE that play the stalker AT. It's because it's WAY too easy to use for ganking, and THAT'S being done EVERY day. If stalkers sucked as much as you guys say, there wouldn't be so many people going through the trouble of lvl'ing one up to PvP levels.
Edit: To PowerNova, I use en/en, have bonesmasher and a couple other melee attacks, and I also have 2 acc SO's slotted in each attack.
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If your going pure range on your blaster, don't have powers like bonesmasher and energy punch ie. seriously lacking melee damage, your not going to do well in PvP
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I can testify to his hardness - also he knows what he is doing and has all the essential powers like your bonesmasher.
(edit) Getting confused now as thought was talking about deluges concept blaster.
Heros
Max Powerz: Lv 50 Tanker
Villains
Max Khaos: Lv 50
Overlord of E.V.I.L.
My Brute - http://maxy-khaos.mybrute.com/
LF SG! Arc ID# 193083
/em yawn
If you want to settle this about whether you can see stalkers or not i'll happily come to Sirens or the arena to let you test out your +perception powers if your on Defiant. That should put it to rest once and for all.
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At the same time, if a stalker can stand nose-to-nose with a character/group running several +perception powers, for an extended period of time without even a flicker of visibility, something needs to be changed.
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But they can't. I can put two CM's on someone, and they can quite easily spot a stalker. Even one with Stealth + Hide.
Hell, even with just IR goggles I can usually get a glimpse of Botty, so I'll either pop some yellows or get ready with BU and take advantage of my defiance
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No, it's the tool of someone who is speaking to children that don't pay any attention to what is being said, because you OBVIOUSLY DON'T.
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In other words, you cannot debate 'on the level'. If you feel that you need to inject that into regular debates, then you'll find that people will react badly towards you. If you can refrain from such actions, you'll find they will have more respect for you and you will not have to 'speak to them like children'. Little worldly advice for you there
Asking for any change which will make the Stalkers life that much harder is a 'nerf'. As has been pointed out already, your suggestions to prevent any 'nerf' could lead to the stalker having superior hide/stalk skills anyways. Thus we have arrived back at square one.
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Hmmmm... I REALLY have to put my brain in a vice to work THIS ONE OUT!
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Personally, I'm not going to talk you out of that particular action, do whichever aids you best. Sure there are loads of stalkers in PvP zones, but how do you think they got to the respective lvls for the PvP zones? By playing the PvE game of course! So by that very same calculation, there *must* be at least as many, if not more, Stalkers playing PvE as there were/are playing PvP!
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By playing the PvE game of course! So by that very same calculation, there *must* be at least as many, if not more, Stalkers playing PvE as there were/are playing PvP!
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Go STRAIGHT to the bottom of the class for this shameless falsehood. The number or proportion of stalkers (or any other AT) in the PvE environment have little or no bearing on the number or proportion in the PvP environment.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Sure there are loads of stalkers in PvP zones, but how do you think they got to the respective lvls for the PvP zones? By playing the PvE game of course! So by that very same calculation, there *must* be at least as many, if not more, Stalkers playing PvE as there were/are playing PvP!
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Thank you J_Sus! And thank you, G_Zeus, for fleshing out my point for me. If stalkers are so crapola as some ppl in this thread want us to believe. Howcome so many people are playing them? I.E. Playing PvE to get XP to level up to lvl 20 (Hey! That rhymes!), so they can get into Sirens. Because, as you would have known if you'd been playing PvP, there is no xp for defeating players. 
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you J_Sus! And thank you, G_Zeus, for fleshing out my point for me. If stalkers are so crapola as some ppl in this thread want us to believe. Howcome so many people are playing them? I.E. Playing PvE to get XP to level up to lvl 20 (Hey! That rhymes!) (Soul edit: Hey, it really does! ), so they can get into Sirens. Because, as you would have known if you'd been playing PvP, there is no xp for defeating players.
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Hold on... I think I lost the point here.
Stalkers ARE poor in PvE. Sure, they can complete missions, they can team with others, and they can AS minions quickly. But IMHO playing as a stalker in PvE is a bit boring, and much, much slower than playing... oh, let's say a corruptor (and don't even mention brutes... fury anyone? ). (EDIT: If someone mentions dominators; I'd like to point out that a dominator in a team has a LOT more uses. And I'd risk saying that some missions are VERY hard to complete without a dominator in the team.) A stalkers has also much less uses in a bigger team (AS, hide, AS, hide, A... damn, they hit me, hide...). So I wouldn't be suprised if people were making their stalkers with PvP in mind. This also means, that should the stalker be nerfed too much, a lot of people are gonna be less than happy. All the above is, obviously, only my opinion on the matter... I'm sure there's a number of stalkers who enjoy PvE content and have no intention to go PvP. That said, I still think such people are a minority.
So... now, what does this all have to do with the number of stalkers PvPing and PvEing? Cos *ehem* I seem to be missing the point of this argument.
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Sure there are loads of stalkers in PvP zones, but how do you think they got to the respective lvls for the PvP zones? By playing the PvE game of course! So by that very same calculation, there *must* be at least as many, if not more, Stalkers playing PvE as there were/are playing PvP!
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Thank you J_Sus! And thank you, G_Zeus, for fleshing out my point for me. If stalkers are so crapola as some ppl in this thread want us to believe. Howcome so many people are playing them? I.E. Playing PvE to get XP to level up to lvl 20 (Hey! That rhymes!), so they can get into Sirens. Because, as you would have known if you'd been playing PvP, there is no xp for defeating players.
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Not seen anyone claiming stalkers are crapola, as all ATs they can be as effective as you make them. And despite popular opinion there are not hoards of stalkers rampaging around Sirens call, its rare for there to be as many as 4 and there are often more than that amount of specific hero ATs in there (4+ blaster, 4+ scrappers I mean) 4 of one type of archetype is not a lot in an entire zone IMO
Dominators seem to be the smallest group in PVP atm which is a shame as they are very useful to say the least
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure there are loads of stalkers in PvP zones, but how do you think they got to the respective lvls for the PvP zones? By playing the PvE game of course! So by that very same calculation, there *must* be at least as many, if not more, Stalkers playing PvE as there were/are playing PvP!
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you J_Sus! And thank you, G_Zeus, for fleshing out my point for me. If stalkers are so crapola as some ppl in this thread want us to believe. Howcome so many people are playing them? I.E. Playing PvE to get XP to level up to lvl 20 (Hey! That rhymes!), so they can get into Sirens. Because, as you would have known if you'd been playing PvP, there is no xp for defeating players.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why are you just making things up now? Who said Stalkers are [censored]?
If they are the one trick pony ppl say they are, they can't be much good. If it's the same trick over and over and over. hide+stealth, sneak up, AS, run away like headless chicken. Can't be much fun.
And I have read in more than one stalker-thread, that the stalkers are no good in PvE. (And these are the ones arguing FOR the stalkers)
Edit: But this isn't the issue, sorry.
[ QUOTE ]
If they are the one trick pony ppl say they are, they can't be much good. If it's the same trick over and over and over. hide+stealth, sneak up, AS, run away like headless chicken. Can't be much fun.
And I have read in more than one stalker-thread, that the stalkers are no good in PvE. (And these are the ones arguing FOR the stalkers)
Edit: But this isn't the issue, sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Being a stalker is a different game to the other ATs (though you can adopt a similar role with a traps blaster) Its more strategic and surgical, taking out a crucial member of a heroes team for example. I play my stalker tactically and sportingly and work my way through a team and dont just kill the same person over and over again (except for gandrel ) I enjoy it and hope that the people who play against me enjoy playing me too.
Stalkers are not the best PVE AT at all, but then neither are (solo) Controllers or Dominators generally. I can solo missions well enough with my stalker as I get mobs of 3 by an AS, placate, impale and kill a second enemy then finish off the 3rd. its quite simple and fast enough but thats my build and my tactic, not all brutes rampage through PVE missions as fast as my brute. Fact is its not a great PVE AT, its not the super AT in PVP people think it is either, only the inexperienced PVPers think that way (no offense to anyone, I know plenty who changed their mind from playing in Sirens)
People who spend time PVPing will soon learn the stalkers ways and how to avoid it, its getting MUCH harder to kill the cadre of regulars that I play with in Sirens and they havent fundamentally changed their powers, just gained experience.
I like stalkers, I like playing my stalker, I like killing stalkers (lingering rad followed by bebuffs and chain holds, run away from that mwahahaha) Stalkers are an AT that makes PVP interesting, it keeps you on your toes and you become alert, they are NOT the strongest PVP AT by any stretch of the imagination, they are just different.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Well, maybe im just bad at PVP then :3
If two CMs can reveal stalkers well, then thats great, now all I have to do is sucker an empath into PVP with me when I go.. but the place is normally pretty deserted when I go..
One thing that I do seem to keep seeing, is that for every 10 strangely blind heroes who cant seem to detect stalkers no matter what they wear, use or have active, there are just as many stalkers who cant quite seem to get within a miles distance to their targets without hearing "NINJA!!1, sound the village alarm!"..
There is definately some gray area here, and it seems if you're not part of the strong detection/strong hiding elite, you're screwwed. In PVP, the strong should thrive, I agree, but the mediocre should not be made completely unable to respond to stalker threat, or even get close for a near-hit.
The weaker will always have harder times in PVP, but it shouldnt be impossible for them either. A mediocre hero should at least be able to spot a stalker at the last moment and make a panic effort to stay alive, and a mediocre stalker should at least be able to dash into melee from a nearby place without being instantly spotted and revealed.
Its nice to know the PVP crowd is 'feeling' the stalker balance right now, but we shouldnt need to excel just to get a sliver of a chance, im just saying that there are far too many people stuck in a gray area to really be ignored (because if you ignore us, we'll breed, then we'll invade your homes). When the house of omnidetection gets stronger, so must the house of omnihiding. The better just keep getting better to just be able to compete, and us mere mortals (casual/passing PVPers) simply dont get a look in.
Or maybe im just bad at PVP as I originally said, but I still think its too much when some stalker is humping my leg, screaming "Jeeeeziz loves ya baaaybeh!" repeatedly, I think I should be able to see them, or at least make a wild guess that if I wave my machete around randomly I should be able to scratch them. :P
Personally I didnt have any problems with stalkers until I really started to compare them to my own favourit AT blasters. Im Ice / Nrg, and many would agree that its prolly the leading blaster for PvP. Damage wise A stalker can one or two hit 3 of the ATs and kill most scrappers in sirens or below. Something I cant even come close to do, even with aim and build up.
I can fight against anything but trollers and spines scrappers and have a decent chance to live, and if they arent played well I can fight em with ease. Against a stalker 1 on 1 I have NO chance if he is just a bit quick and have SO's.
That leaves me to think perhaps a stalker have more damage than me, and surely his two hit combo does more damage than I can do as a blaster. Hell any high level attack with a crit and build up( and he can have two with placate ), does more damage than I can deliver with my hits. So in PvP I would say that the build with most damage is a stalker. Lets see what he gets beside better damage than me, hm... Mez protection, Much better defences, and an allmost undetectable stealth. The problem with stalkers however is that aside from PvP, they cant really do anything, because in PvE you need to chain your attacks and its pretty hard to chain something that is only up every 20-30 sec's.(Build up + AS + Placate and so on).
But you dont need to do that in PvP, so In my opinion its pretty screwed up with the ballence atleast when I compare blasters and stalkers.
My solution is a bit strange from what every one has sugested, I say nerf their mez protection to about a mag 4 protection in PvP. That way they will put them self to great risk if they go against most groups but not if they target an individual.
50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr
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But you dont need to do that in PvP, so In my opinion its pretty screwed up with the ballence atleast when I compare blasters and stalkers.
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But thats a blaster, the faceplanter AT of COH and lets face it, if not for stalkers who would be giving you a challange in the PVP zones? What I find annoying in PVP is that NRG blasters can batter fully slotted brutes. Surely an AT which is specifically for damage and defense should not be detoggled quite so easily, get into a fight with a NRG blaster, start pounding, defiance kicks in, all toggles drop and you dead, why play a brute if thats just gonna happen? Its all swings and roundabouts.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
[ QUOTE ]
Stalkers ARE poor in PvE
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So far I have soloed 3 elite bosses with my lvl 15 stalker (set to rugged). Stalkers are completly viable in PvE. They just dont lvl as fast as other toons cause you have too much downtime.
A Paragon Defender
I'll ignore the rest of the waffle you posted and go straight to where you were *actually* posting about the subject we're discussing:
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Hide is getting the nerf I feared
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I was under the impression that AS is the thing on stalkers that is getting 'nerfed', not through play balancing on part of the Devs, but because of all the pathetic moaners who take their dodgy and backwards builds into PvP zones and then wonder why their human targets don't lay down in front of them.
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MY problem is moot
[/ QUOTE ]
No, your original point was moot, hence why you've had a bunch of people replying to you to explain why it was moot.
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but the stalker's problem is not
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First */storm controllers, now stalkers. On a very serious question, what AT will be next on your 'lets nerf' list because your precious Blaster can't take them out?
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I know I said the previous post would be the last
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Its always best to never contradict your own words/actions. It makes any point you have make/are making invalid. Sarcasm and/or exaggeration also are tools of somebody who is unable to remain 'on the level' when engaded within adult debate