Why don't people start teams?

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... didn't like the responsibility of grabbing new teammates, worrying about team balance or picking missions. ...

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That's what broke me of it. My experience, on both Freedom and Virtue, has been that:
<ul type="square">[*]Nobody will settle for anything less than a 6 person team. They would rather stand around for another hour, if that's what it takes, than enter a mission door with fewer than 6.[*]If you persuade, say, a 3 person team or a 4 person team to enter the first mission, every single one of them will quit if you don't have a 6-8 person team by the time they finish the first mission ... and they expect you to carry your weight on the team while you're scrolling through the /search window and corresponding with 10 or 15 potential team recruits via simultaneous tells. There are people who can multi-task that well. I'm not one of them.[*]People care a great deal about XP efficiency, reward, and risk avoidance. They also resent 5 minutes of travel time more than they resent 45 minutes of standing around while the team leader recruits. As a result, it's possible to recruit a team for AE boss farms. It's possible to recruit a team to grind /newspaper and police radio missions, if (and only if) you promise to stick to Freakshow when you can get them, and Council as your only fallback. It's usually possible to recruit a team for task or strike forces. Zone story arcs? Double (at least) your expected time to recruit. Classic CoH story arcs, mayhems, safeguards, Ouroboros, street sweeping in hazard zones, anything in a PvP zone? Forget it, never going to happen, period, no matter how long you spend trying to recruit.[*]After doing at most 3 missions with a 6-8 person team, one person (not unreasonably, since it took us an hour to recruit) has to log off. Five other people will take this as an excuse to quit the team, themselves, because "obviously" the team is breaking up. At that point, my choices are two: take another hour to recruit more people, or give up and go back to soloing.[/list]At this point, I have, in fact, given up on teaming for anything but strike forces. Until I have them all memorized, I'm letting other people recruit for them, because when it comes to strike forces, people expect the person with the star to know what parts can be stealthed, what ambushes are spawning when, what zone to go to next while the leader is traveling to click some contact, and all other aspects of strategy for the TF/SF. And I don't blame them, it really does improve the experience when a SF is lead by someone experienced. When I'm closer to being that guy, I'll recruit more teams.

But teaming for zone (let alone regular) story arcs, Ouroboros arcs, mayhem or safeguard missions? I gave up long ago. I can solo three times as many of them as I could get done with a team in the same amount of time, because of the drastic reduction in standing-around time.

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Me, I'm kinda anxious about starting teams. The moment I have the star next to my nick, I feel responsible for the enjoyment of the whole team. When someone quits without the same old "bye, thanks for playing", it feels to me like they didn't have fun, and I take that as an enormous personal failure. It's extremely silly, I know, but I just can't help it.

Thankfully, the game is extremely soloable. For me, the only real reason for teaming is the social interaction aspect, and by now I learned to just chat in global channels, so I get my fix there while planning. Still, if there's something I really want that requires a team, I'm quick to form one. If I come across a GM, within five minutes I'll have a full team of eight ready, which is usually enough to take most GMs down. If there's a TF I wanna do that's not the ITF, I'm not going to wait for someone else to start one.

The best part is that being the team leader isn't even such a big deal. Essentially all you do is set the current mission and the team's good to go. I am consciously aware of that, and I made enough team-leading experiences to cement that fact, but it'll never change the fact that I'd rather take the advisor than the leader position. All the influence without any of the responsibility, real or imagined.

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(Also, we're supposed to still be on DOs, which requires a level spread of zero.)

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1.) lol wut? - you can have a level spread on DOs and do just fine. I've done it on Trainers!
2.) You can slot SOs at 23.
3.) I grabbed those levels out of my butt. I see this happen at all levels in every zone all the way up to G-Ville.

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Most things in the paper at this level are going to, ah, generate downtime

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Um.. what?

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The best part is that being the team leader isn't even such a big deal. Essentially all you do is set the current mission and the team's good to go.

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Yup. This isn't the most tactics heavy game in the world. As long as you're playing with a group where *most* of them know how to play their AT, you'll do fine with just everyone sticking together and playing Follow The Brute/Tank.

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I don't start teams because I intensely dislike trying to pull my weight on a team while continually trying to recruit to the tune of dead silence [unanswered tells].

I also dislike it because if the leader is not on highest difficulty, then everyone is outta there.

I dislike it currently because I am sick and tired of AE babies who have been in the game 5 minutes trying to tell me and entire teams how to do things. As if they have a clue NOT

I will form teams for raids and Giant Monsters ONLY. And those teams do really well.

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I don't start teams because I intensely dislike trying to pull my weight on a team while continually trying to recruit to the tune of dead silence [unanswered tells].

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Probably shouldn't be trying both of those at the same time. If I need to recruit I do it between missions, not during.

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I also dislike it because if the leader is not on highest difficulty, then everyone is outta there.

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Never a problem for me

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I dislike it currently because I am sick and tired of AE babies who have been in the game 5 minutes trying to tell me and entire teams how to do things.

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Haven't run into this yet. If I do, then &lt;kick&gt;

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/reads thread

//yay for soloing!

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Be well, people of CoH.

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The answers she provided were interesting. But mostly boiled down to the fact that she didn't like to take responsibility for leading.

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Most people don't like to be in charge. They like to have someone else take initiative and lay out a path for them to follow. I'm a little like that, with the difference that, if no one else will step up to the plate, I'll man up and fill that role. I'm not entirely thrilled with it, but sometimes it's the shortest route to what I want to accomplish.



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That reminded me of my 6th Grade Science class.

I myself am not a leader, never was, never will be, I'm just a worker. In my science class I was almost always put in charge of the group projects when the teacher made groups. I almost always got stuck with those with the lowest grades in the class due to my A being one of only two, I'm guessing because the teacher wanted my brains to balance out their lack of one.

I lead the group, but I hated it. It was more like trying to get a mule to go where you want it than having other kids work as a team.

Thankfully it's not quite THAT bad here in CoH, but I still hate leading.

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I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

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I don't know about you, but I've basically become a PERMANENT team/TF starter. I only play in full teams nowadays (unless I'm working at the same time ) and I almost always form and run them.

Stop by Justice sometime to see what I mean, heh.

P.S. LOLteambalance

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When I'm forming a team, I send a tell to everyone that's A) not in a team and B) doesn't display "accept no invites". I figure out SK/Exemplaring later. I send a TELL mind you, not a direct invite.

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Wow, where are you when I play on Justice. Sometimes when I play there I wonder if I got bugged somehow and wound up on everyone's ignore list. Other servers not such a problem, Justice you can hear the crickets chirp.

Like Bruthaman, if I'm the leader I feel obligated to act like one, which isn't needed, and therefore the whole thing feels really uncomfortable. I avoid it when possible, and if I don't see a team, I either solo or play a character that can.

Team "balance" is a really silly idea.

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Hay i like people like that. There easier to control.

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Yeah. Good luck with that.

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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

Because I'm a misanthrope. Now, any other questions, dirtbag?

All kidding aside, I rarely lead teams because I feel like a cruise director when I do. I'm probably overreacting, but I worry if the team members are satisfied with the XP, the choice of missions, the general pace, etc. I like things done right, and I'm not confident to in my ability to lead properly.

It's weird, but the team leader role ends up seeming more like a waiter at a restaurant in my mind.

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I don't like all the paperwork, so to speak. I'm a rather passive person who doesn't like to organize/start things. Just ask my roleplaying group who are always trying to get me to run games to little avail.

In game I invariably claim to be allergic to stars, and if someone passes it to me I will often quit the team citing said allergy. I'm generally not picky about teaming - I'm often perfectly happy to duo, even. But I'm not the guy to recruit people or get/start the missions. I'm just along for the ride.

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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

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Wow, where are you when I play on Justice.

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Well, where were YOU, I just ran the First and Second Respec Trial AND Numia's TF today. All on full teams that I formed out of random people that said "yes". All teams started less than 10 minutes after starting to search for people.

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It's weird, but the team leader role ends up seeming more like a waiter at a restaurant in my mind.

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Then don't. It seems this is a popular sentiment here for why people don't lead teams. They feel like they're "serving" people.

Well, I don't serve anyone. I run my teams like a benevolent dictatorship. I tell people before they join what we're going to do, I tell them how I run my teams (I have a couple quick macros set up for that) and then I set the mission.

Everyone, goes, kill stuff, get eXPeez, and has fun. Then I just set the next one that *I* want to do, and the next one. That's it. If anyone doesn't like it, well nothing is making them stay.

I don't tell people HOW to play, unless they get their teammates killed. That's when I step in. Other than setting the missions and deciding what we're going to do (which is whatever *I* want), the team pretty much "runs" itself and I'm nothing but another player.

So, yeah, that's about it:

<ul type="square">[*]Form a team full of people that know that you're in charge.[*]Set your expectations of them at the start simply and quickly.[*]Set the mission, let them kill stuff.[*]Between missions, fill any empty spots.[/list]
That's it.

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I started to run lowbie villain teams on Virtue because I really hate the Kalinda/Burke missions already.

My first few outings were awkward because I'd continually poll the group for what missions we do next or I'd try to suggest who should do what. For the first question, I'd usually get a big "whatever is fine" and for the second instance, it just never felt right.

I'd either be talking to a much older vet or a new player who isn't quite interested.

Nowadays, though it's been a while, I'll just form the team and then run the missions I choose. We'll start off with my missions, but it doesn't have to be that way.

What I like best is synchronizing missions with team members. I've been doing this with the Midnighter Arc from good ol' Monty in Steel Canyon. I've run that thing so much, it's just nicer to have company.

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Because I'm a misanthrope. Now, any other questions, dirtbag?

All kidding aside, I rarely lead teams because I feel like a cruise director when I do. I'm probably overreacting, but I worry if the team members are satisfied with the XP, the choice of missions, the general pace, etc. I like things done right, and I'm not confident to in my ability to lead properly.


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When leading in CoX, less is more. Just pick a mission from whichever player you want. I generally do mostly mine, but then randomly pick ones from other teammates as long as their CL is set high enough (or I say "we can do one of yours, if you don't mind bumping your difficulty up"). Then switch back to mine. Then switch to theirs. Etc.

If people stick with the team, they're happy. If not (or if they have something else to do) they move on.

Generally, most people don't care which missions they do. They will be happy with anything white or harder. The one thing they generally want to do is keep moving. Long delays make them impatient, but even then they'll usually start without you and keep mowing down foes.

Leading a team means "being the guy to recruit when no one else feels like it". Beyond that, it's just a clerical job of clicking on the next mission.

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InfamousBrad's list covers a lot of the reasons for me. I actually used to form/lead teams quite a lot, way way back at release. But gradually over time I've become more of a follower than a leader. A lot of it is (perhaps just the perception of) increasing expectations: expectations of travel time/distance, xp efficiency, team size, farming &amp; AE, etc. Also the decline in use of the lfg flags; time is maybe clouding my memory, but I remember people using the lfg flags a lot more often in times past, setting them when they wanted a team and leaving them off when they didn't. Now very few people set them, or it seems check for them, and we have this big mass of people half of whom consider "Not Looking" to mean "Do not try to invite me EVER" and the other half who use it for "I might team, just ask me" (and lots of people who are actively looking for a team - you see the broadcasts and tells - but stay on "Not Looking").

Unfortunately I'm a pretty shy, socially awkward kind of person with a serious aversion to confrontation of any kind, so the general grief that can go with all that (perceived or otherwise) has become increasingly offputting. Also general laziness can kick in - sometimes everything else aside I just don't feel like putting in the effort. On that note, I'd probably "lead" teams a bit more often if we got some kind of LFM interface similar to some other games - let me mark myself LFM, set a level variation, add a note saying what I'm doing, and just let people self-invite as I go. Leading for lazy people!

All that said, I don't generally complain when I can't find a team - I have enough alts across 3 servers that, combined with global channels watching for TFs, I'll usually find something sooner or later (though probably not redside on Victory ).

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I don't lead teams for the same reason I don't LOOK for teams - I don't need to play a bot match. If I'm going to play with other PEOPLE, I'd like to play with other people, not simply with other warm bodies with a brain. Though, given the skill level of some players, I might be better off with bots.

I have a certain way I like to do things, which includes a bunch of different facts, but does NOT include "important" things like efficiency, risk avoidance, ease and so forth. I don't really like playing with other people, as what they want to do is very different from what I want to do. Seeking to be on a team, therefore, is pretty much stupid, because why would I want to specifically LOOK to play the game in a way I don't want to?

Of course, being on a team with total strangers isn't always a bad thing, as long as I set my mind that I won't be doing what I want. It's good for a mission or two every few months. But why would I want to LEAD such a team? People say "Well, just ignore them and do your own thing!" but that doesn't work. I can tell when people are satisfied and when they aren't, and since I don't feel like spending ALL MY DAMN TIME recruiting more people because the current ones left, I don't bother to begin with.

It's a simple matter of cost vs. effect. Leading a team costs, and it gives ABSOLUTELY NOTHING back for that cost. So, why bother?

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For the record, I think it's important to be as versatile as possible. To that end, I've become proficient at leading. For me that means reading the team.

Are they (blissfully) the sort that can get on by themselves?

Are we herding, then wait around this corner.

Are we sniping or trapping?

Do we have a dedicated healer? Believe it or not some Defenders take offense if you expect them to actually defend. Go figure.

Do we have any credible lockdown (ie good Controller work)

There are diferent working strategies for each of these scenarios. For my money any leader worth his/her salt, will take these various situations into account. And be flexible enough to adapt his/her strategy accordingly.

It is also my considered opinion that part of holding a team together involves taking the time to sort throught his/her teammates various undone missions and pick the ones that will be most advantageous to the team. That means picking the closest one of the right level. And spreading this around so everyone gets a turn at having the team do their mission.

I promise you, that sometimes all it takes, is a word of encouragement, cajoling or thanks at the appropriate time, to hold a team together. Sometimes, in order to inspire my team, I will tell them from the outset, that I will be dedicating myself to guarding the Healer. Believe it or not, sometimes that's enough to put them in the correct cooperative and heroic frame of mind.

But these practices involve skullsweat and patience. And I fear that these commodities are in dreadfully short supply these days.

My natural inclination is to be a follower. So leading will always be a tad uncomfortable for me. But I honestly believe that taking the time to develop serviceable leadership skills pays dividends both here and in the Real World.

Remember, if a thing is worth doing at all, it's worth doing well. And just because that sounds sappy, doesn't make it any less true. Are we not heroes, after all?

OMG! You see how inspirational that sorta stuff is? I'm ready to take that friggin hill all by my lonesome, right now!

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I'm only laughing on the outside
My smile is just skin deep
If you could see inside, I'm really crying
You might join me for a weep

My Roster

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It's funny, this is based on actual messages I've seen in broadcast:

Player1: Level 23 brute, lft!
Player2: Level 24 corr, lft!
Player3: Level 24 MM, lft!
Me: Why don't you three all join up together?
Player1: Level 23 brute, lft!
Player2: Level 24 corr, lft!
Player3: Level 24 MM, lft!

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More common than you know. It's not uncommon in other MMOs either - I used to see this in Planetside back in 2003-2004 - but on teaming in COH, there's definitely a mentality of "feed me, pay my bills, just don't make me make a decision" when it comes to teaming.

And conversely, all it takes is two seconds of inviting to cure it. Sure, I see these follower types on Freedom, but thankfully, there are plenty of "leader" types as well where I do it 50/50 when it comes to leading or being led. It's a mentality, and luckily there are people who buy into that mentality more these days.

So yeah, City of Wallflowers is a good name for it, but I'd prefer MWO Syndrome to genericize the phenomenon more.

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I'm a supervisor in the real, and I deal with many people under me in all aspects.

That said, CoX is my escape. I like to come home and chill by punching virtual people in the face, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. I do start teams often, but more often than that, I really don't want to be bothered. Let someone else hold the reins. Being in charge of throngs of employees and a multi-million dollar building full of equiptment kinda sucks a little life from you stress wise at times.

I love playing with other people, but I have to say, unless I am on a 30 to 40+ character I won't be teaming much on Virtue. Especially redside to which I enjoy much more.

I have been playing a little game latley, I'll check all of the peoples globals in the AE buildings that are doing farms, and I like to chuckle when I see those that post on the forums that say that AE ruined the game, and see tham asking or on farm teams.

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This seems true to me also here.

At work I work in the NOC, and monitor thousands of sites in my department. Aside from doing RL recruiting of techs to move out and fix physical problems, and make sure the customers are happy it gets on ya.

When I play CoV I am not looking for a team unless it is a SF. Why would I go through annoyances of trying to appease others or do extra work when all I wanna do a slam some NPC skulls in?

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I started playing around launch and then took a long extended break until a month and change ago. When I returned, my highest level character was 18 (now 37). It seems that everyone I talk to in the game is on their -nth trip up to 50 and going through the motions.

I don't start groups because I usually feel unqualified.

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Hey, I start teams all the time, very often with my own SG members (said SG was the result of me and two other cool people playing together on a team someone else started!) and my GF, but often asking random people to join us if they're the right level and seem to be cool people. Playing with a PUG is fun because of the mix of new and old teammates; plus, it gives me extra chances to complete harder arcs or to get extra folks I'd never see otherwise to play my MA arcs!

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I'm out of signature space! Arcs by Tubbius of Justice are HERE: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=218177

I love starting teams and being the leader, it's way more fun for me then just filling my role on the team. Plus, it kind of gives me a sense of accomplishment if I get a really kick [censored] team together and we steamroll through the missions

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