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Im'ma keep quoting this until this thread dies, this is old, either do something or shut up, what we're doing here is making NO DIFFERENCE. Please, if you're concerned about the future of CoX, start a thread and try to come to a decent fix, comprimise, don't RAGE, or better yet, someone should send out PMs and get a general opinion, keeping the opinions anounomous(splol) so that zealots like alt can't refute the opinions with flawed logic. Otherwise, pls shut up, just thinking about Altoholic makes me consider nyquil as a beverage and downin 4 bottles just to escape the reality that there are people in the world that are so ignorant.
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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
BTW, the devs will not listen to us until we set aside the RAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGEEE DOOOOOOOOM OMG RAAAAGE HULKSMASH RAGE RAGE ROOOOAAAAR that we're basically doing now and come to a decent conclusion. Now please, if you want to further degrade the game, act like alt and ignore anyone who thinks differently then you, actually, if you act like alt, get off the forums, a forums is a place for discussion, not blind rage in the form of Anti-MA zealotry.
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Bad Rep-
"AE stopping the farming
08-11-2009 12:58 AM
Please don't tell other people to shut up. If a thread bothers you, don't read it. "
Luv you too ignorant one.
Ok, my point seems to have been lost in associasion.
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It's not so much that there are 'people' encoraging players to farm, it's that the Game Itself, is encoraging it. By attaching such a disproportionate reward to a very narrow band of content (easily access content to boot) the game not only encorages players to play that content, but encorages players to play it repeadativly at the expence of other content that they may enjoy more.|
Originally Posted by Bright_Shadow
Do you see anyone ENCOURAGING people to farm? I have not seen any scenario like that. If you think that just because there is too much farm spam in Atlas Park, this leads new players straight into AE, I'm afraid to say my experience tells me otherwise. Many new players also go the other way.
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Originally Posted by Bright_Shadow
. . .They've just chosen to stick to farming because (this is an actual paraphrasing of a quote I heard from a new player) "I have played way too many MMOs in the past. I just wanna explore the end game content.".
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Originally Posted by Bright_Shadow
That is their choice. And we should respect it. They are not breaking any rules. They're merely doing what was told to them: "Mission Architect Tip: You can level from 1 - 50 within Mission Architect." |
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Heh, pretty much why I left too, though . . . I miss the pretty ships, I miss them soo.
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Originally Posted by bricktop
QFT. That is why I left EVE. But there you had to work just to survive.
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Excellent suggestions!
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Originally Posted by sigma1932
K, I didn't bother to read all 16 pages, but to put it simply, if you wanna stop people from farming in AE, limit them from getting any rewards after they've earned 10 bars worth of XP (even at 50, count up what it would be for 10 bars), and then cut them off from all rewards... no XP, no Inf., no Tix, nothing... well, they can still get inspirations I guess. Then, reset this counter once per day, at an arbitrary time. If people decide they want to farm, then they're done in half an hour, and have to leave the building if they want to make real progress, or wait until the next reset time.
Something like this would cover all the marketing points on the box on shelves in stores: a player could still level from 1 to 50 using only AE, and they can still use it starting at level 1. IF that's too harsh, give "double-XP" credit similar to Patrol XP (could even have it stack with patrol XP-- giving 3x XP... normal once, patrol second, AE bank third) after the cap has been met for the day (but still no inf. or tix). I'd say this doubleing effect could count while earning real XP in while playing in AE, but the doubled part should count against that day's cap before they just start earning more banked XP again (so theoretically, if someone spends 30 minutes hitting the cap one day by farming, then keep farming and earn another 10 bars of banked XP, then come back the next day and farm again and do the same farm, they'll actually be done farming in 15 min before they just start banking XP again). The idea here is to discourage the ridiculously fast XP/inf. gain and promote playing actual story arcs, which is what the AE was meant for. Typically we don't gain a full level by playing 2-3, even 4 arcs, depending on the level of the arc, especially with no end-of-mission bonuses, so it really won't hamper people who are creating/playing real arcs. To balance all this, lower the price of tickets needed for rolls as people would be getting fewer per day. |
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Can you be any more elitist and self-righteous?
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
AE Babies are wrong because of the things you mentioned, they dont slot, they take the wrong powers, they constantly make mistakes that land people in a hosp.
They dilute the player base with lazy morons...it's like inbreeding. The fact that you would favor a stupid player that doesnt take breaks over a skilled player that does have to pee or other stuff is foolish. As soon as I see a level 50 without the three month vet badge I ask for the star and I kick them out off the team. I hold a vey stong policy on AE PL'd toons on my teams, that policy is that if they like to gains levels fast they can go with their own kind and stay in that ugly building (and not figurative...that building is physically ugly) |
I'll give my opinion by first pointing to BaB's twitter where he posted a link to a good article:
BaB's twitter:
http://twitter.com/CoHBABs
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=> http://news.mmosite.com/content/2009...34657392.shtml| http://tinyurl.com/mrtt4u . I'm convinced author is one of our forum users, seen same 'points' there.11:04 AM Aug 6th from web |
To specifically talk about AE:
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| The debacles centering around the Mission Architect left a bad taste in many people's mouths. There were problems with the Mission Architect, centering around how easy it was to powerlevel (i.e., level much faster than the developers intended) using the MA, when Issue 14 (the update that included the MA) was in closed beta testing. Those, and other MA problems, were virtually ignored by the developers and the update was allowed to go live with massive exploits. It wasn't until after a "free" weekend designed to lure old players back into the game that punishments were retroactively handed out to the biggest "offenders." The whole thing was handled very poorly, and for those who were iffy on staying with City of Heroes in the first place, this was plenty enough to push them over the edge. A more minor, but still poorly handled, Mission Architect issue had to do with the game's badge system. Dozens of MA-related badges were removed from the game because, according to the developers, they led to people creating easy-to-farm badge missions in the MA. They never really satisfactorily answered questions about this, or suggestions for a different fix to the supposed problem, at least not in my eyes, or the eyes of many others. Even ignoring these problems, many City of Heroes player believe that the Mission Architect has actually taken away from the game itself, because so many players focus on nothing but the MA and ignore the rest of the game. |
1. There is no reason to go anywhere else than AE in Atlas Park if you intend to "level","ticket farm"
2. This is detrimental to the rest of the game
As a powergamer (with an excellent SG) trapped in a casual player time schedule , I still like to do some pickup teams and pickup TFs sometimes when I feel like it. This is particularly true for some of my characters who are basically totally a chore to solo with like my sonic/sonic or TA/A defenders
That said, I am also taking my part in the farming that goes on. It's ridiculous. I leveled from 6 to 20 in a single farm (sk-ed to 46 fighting 51s). It's like everyone has access to the former PI farms 100% of the time. How are players supposed to get out of that mindset? Especially as it gives XP AND TICKETS (and consequently loot).
There are still some cool people around that are ready to take part in mission teams though (even ones with no vet badges).
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How is Pl'ing and farming detrimental to the game? Pl'ing and farming have been in the game since the very beginning.|
Originally Posted by _dEOS_
I'll give my opinion by first pointing to BaB's twitter where he posted a link to a good article:
BaB's twitter: http://twitter.com/CoHBABs => http://news.mmosite.com/content/2009...34657392.shtml To specifically talk about AE: The first and last sentence are really what I am thinking. 1. There is no reason to go anywhere else than AE in Atlas Park if you intend to "level","ticket farm" 2. This is detrimental to the rest of the game As a powergamer (with an excellent SG) trapped in a casual player time schedule , I still like to do some pickup teams and pickup TFs sometimes when I feel like it. This is particularly true for some of my characters who are basically totally a chore to solo with like my sonic/sonic or TA/A defenders That said, I am also taking my part in the farming that goes on. It's ridiculous. I leveled from 6 to 20 in a single farm (sk-ed to 46 fighting 51s). It's like everyone has access to the former PI farms 100% of the time. How are players supposed to get out of that mindset? Especially as it gives XP AND TICKETS (and consequently loot). There are still some cool people around that are ready to take part in mission teams though (even ones with no vet badges). |
I mean you even said yourself:
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| It's like everyone has access to the former PI farms 100% of the time. |
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AE is more efficient. AE gives out experience in greater quantities. AE gives out experience with less effort. That's the difference.|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
How is Pl'ing and farming detrimental to the game? Pl'ing and farming have been in the game since the very beginning.
I mean you even said yourself: So the Pl's are already in the game Pre-MA it's just that now you go form a team in Atlas instead of PI? Whats the difference? |
If that wasn't true, people would still be farming in PI.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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Not really, no, no, and they still are.
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Originally Posted by Barata
AE is more efficient. AE gives out experience in greater quantities. AE gives out experience with less effort. That's the difference.
If that wasn't true, people would still be farming in PI. |
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Yes really, yes, and yes. And yes, some people still farm in PI. Anyone who says that the amount of AE farming is less than PI though is just kidding himself. As for whether or not an AE farm mission gives more or less experience..... more people farm AE than any other mechanism. It's obvious. Go to AP and look at how many farm teams are forming in AE. Then go to the other zones and add up those farm teams. You'll see that AE is being farmed much more than any other mechanism.|
Originally Posted by Geek_Boy
Not really, no, no, and they still are.
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So if AE is not offering better rewards than PI farming, then why have the majority of players who farmed in PI now farm in AE? AE guarantees that every mob in a farm mission is boss level or higher, yielding the highest rewards and experience. No other content in the game guarantees that. AE can guarantee that every mob you face does the damage type that you are most resistant to. AE can guarantee that every mob you face has the least resistance to your own damage type. Do you debate that? Having guaranteed mobs of boss level, susceptible to your damage type, and inflicing the damage you are most likely to resist or avoid is efficient. So how is AE farming less efficient or lucrative than PI?
I'm not saying I'm for or against AE farming, or even farming in general. Someone asked what the difference was between PI farming and AE farming, and I explained. Those are the differences, and I'm not sure how it's debatable.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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AE is more efficient FOR THE RIGHT TEAM. AE does NOT give experience in greater quantities (custom bosses offer less XP than bosses in-game, Patrol XP is not taken in AE, and there is no end-mission bonus). AE does NOT give out experience with less effort because farming level 54 bosses isn't really a walk in the park.
Originally Posted by Barata
AE is more efficient. AE gives out experience in greater quantities. AE gives out experience with less effort. That's the difference.
If that wasn't true, people would still be farming in PI.
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In Influence, depending on drops.|
Originally Posted by Barata
So how is AE farming less efficient or lucrative than PI?
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Which, I imagine, is likely why there's still some farming going on in PI.
Otherwise, sure, AE is the preferred option.
Though, I think there is a big reason for this, which didn't make it onto your list: Convenience.
In that regard, I16 is going to change the dynamic considerably.
I look at farming and PLing as two different behaviors. As it stands, someone looking for the latter can benefit from the former, and someone pursuing the former has incentive to include someone wanting the latter.
That changes in I16, though. Farmers will no longer need padders.
I think that's going to result in a lot of "AE Babies" standing around looking for something to do, and a lot of crying on /broadcast.
But we'll see.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
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Yes. Like you said, with the right team, it's more efficient. But that exact same reasoning applies to all content within the game. It's not like you can pick up a mission outside of AE and team build doesn't matter. Also, you don't need to use custom bosses with reduced experience, you can pick out standard ones that your build does well against.|
Originally Posted by Bright_Shadow
AE is more efficient FOR THE RIGHT TEAM. AE does NOT give experience in greater quantities (custom bosses offer less XP than bosses in-game, Patrol XP is not taken in AE, and there is no end-mission bonus). AE does NOT give out experience with less effort because farming level 54 bosses isn't really a walk in the park. |
As for it being a walk in the park.... it very well can be a walk in the park. I've run through a couple of those. Lots of experience, capped out ticket rewards, zero risk, little effort.
If PI farming teams are just as lucrative as AE, then why aren't more people in PI farming? If AE doesn't have all these advantages, why is it so popular? I'm serious. When people farm, they choose the most rewarding content. That's why you don't see farm teams running radio missions. So if AE does not offer advantages to the normal PI farm teams, then why do the farmers, people who admit and pride themselves on their knowledge of maximizing rewards, concentrate on AE?
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Quote:
Yes, it's convenient. That's one advantage that has nothing to do with experience. But like I said in the post preceding this one, serious farmers pride themselves on maximizing their rewards. That's not a derogatory statement I'm making, it's merely acknowledging what farmers have been saying for a long time now. Convenience accounts for some of AE's popularity, but it's not going to attract as much farming as it does if it didn't offer good rewards that at least match what you can get elsewhere.|
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
In Influence, depending on drops.
Which, I imagine, is likely why there's still some farming going on in PI. Otherwise, sure, AE is the preferred option. Though, I think there is a big reason for this, which didn't make it onto your list: Convenience. In that regard, I16 is going to change the dynamic considerably. I look at farming and PLing as two different behaviors. As it stands, someone looking for the latter can benefit from the former, and someone pursuing the former has incentive to include someone wanting the latter. That changes in I16, though. Farmers will no longer need padders. I think that's going to result in a lot of "AE Babies" standing around looking for something to do, and a lot of crying on /broadcast. But we'll see. |
I'm looking forward to I16. I decided I have nothing against farming other than I think it's boring, and I'm very much looking forward to upping the virtual team size and running through some of my missions.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Quote:
I have to admit I chuckled at that. I started envisioning the broadcasts in AP.|
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
...
I think that's going to result in a lot of "AE Babies" standing around looking for something to do, and a lot of crying on /broadcast. But we'll see. |
"10 Tank LFF! I has skillz. Why wont ne1 invite me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Quote:
I think you're still underestimating the impact of convenience. It's a time saver. Less time spent foraging for padders = more time spent farming = greater rewards.|
Originally Posted by Barata
Yes, it's convenient. That's one advantage that has nothing to do with experience. But like I said in the post preceding this one, serious farmers pride themselves on maximizing their rewards. That's not a derogatory statement I'm making, it's merely acknowledging what farmers have been saying for a long time now. Convenience accounts for some of AE's popularity, but it's not going to attract as much farming as it does if it didn't offer good rewards that at least match what you can get elsewhere.
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When was the last time you got a /tell asking you to pad?
AE has created an easily accessible social hub--Atlas for blueside, Cap for redside--that concentrates farmers and PLers in one place, making teaming for their pursuits much, much easier. Naturally, under the current dynamics, that's going to be a very attractive scenario. It results in increased rewards for time spent.
That attraction largely vanishes with I16. At that point, I believe, the optimal farming formula will become a mix of AE and RC, and the crowds in AE will noticeably shrink.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
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Farming is not about maximum rewards. Farming is about efficiency. There are many factor that go into your "walk in the park" AE boss farm, and unless you're the actual team leader, you don't really get to see them.
Originally Posted by Barata
Yes. Like you said, with the right team, it's more efficient. But that exact same reasoning applies to all content within the game. It's not like you can pick up a mission outside of AE and team build doesn't matter. Also, you don't need to use custom bosses with reduced experience, you can pick out standard ones that your build does well against.
As for it being a walk in the park.... it very well can be a walk in the park. I've run through a couple of those. Lots of experience, capped out ticket rewards, zero risk, little effort.
If PI farming teams are just as lucrative as AE, then why aren't more people in PI farming? If AE doesn't have all these advantages, why is it so popular? I'm serious. When people farm, they choose the most rewarding content. That's why you don't see farm teams running radio missions. So if AE does not offer advantages to the normal PI farm teams, then why do the farmers, people who admit and pride themselves on their knowledge of maximizing rewards, concentrate on AE?
You need a team. And you need a GOOD team. You need high DPS, and high survivability. Sure, this team could mow any regular content missions. But it is not NECESSARY in order to mow your way in regular content. In AE, it is necessary; otherwise you'll have team-wipes and quitters.
What makes AE so 'popular' is the fact that it is accessible. That, and the Auto-SK feature. These reduce the time needed for farms. And time is a major factor in efficient farming.
As I've said it countless times, farmers do not exploit the game. Farmers find an efficient point in the Risk vs. Reward curve of the game, and then repetitively use it for their advantage.
Right now, this point of efficiency seems to reside in AE maniac boss farms (and other farms depending on your particular team build). And in order to reach this point of efficiency, you need a well-built team and co-ordinated team play (unless you're that one guy who solo's boss farms with their 4 billion IO'd-out build with enough DPS to do it efficiently). Once you do arrive at that point of efficiency, rewards start rolling.
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I didn't claim farmers were exploiting the game. As both you and Hydrophidian pointed out, there are different issues that make the AE more lucrative than normal PI farming. Convenience is one. You don't need to travel far and the hospital is right there. You brought up auto-sk, and that's a valid feature too. All of these give you increased XP per hour.|
Originally Posted by Bright_Shadow
Farming is not about maximum rewards. Farming is about efficiency. There are many factor that go into your "walk in the park" AE boss farm, and unless you're the actual team leader, you don't really get to see them. You need a team. And you need a GOOD team. You need high DPS, and high survivability. Sure, this team could mow any regular content missions. But it is not NECESSARY in order to mow your way in regular content. In AE, it is necessary; otherwise you'll have team-wipes and quitters. What makes AE so 'popular' is the fact that it is accessible. That, and the Auto-SK feature. These reduce the time needed for farms. And time is a major factor in efficient farming. As I've said it countless times, farmers do not exploit the game. Farmers find an efficient point in the Risk vs. Reward curve of the game, and then repetitively use it for their advantage. Right now, this point of efficiency seems to reside in AE maniac boss farms (and other farms depending on your particular team build). And in order to reach this point of efficiency, you need a well-built team and co-ordinated team play (unless you're that one guy who solo's boss farms with their 4 billion IO'd-out build with enough DPS to do it efficiently). Once you do arrive at that point of efficiency, rewards start rolling. |
But it still comes down to this..... if AE wasn't more profitable than PI, people would still be in PI. Some of the things that make AE more profitable may not necessarily be the difficulty level or the experienced gained per boss, but all components do add up to make it more profitable.
With I16, focus should shift once more towards regular missions again. Right now though, AE offers advantages that PI does not.
And please, I didn't say farmers were exploiting. I'll say that some people were exploiting at various times (Comm Officers, Mitos). That's if we use the common definition of exploiting that is used within the game.... using an intended behavior or broken mechanic for gain.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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This, definitely. And the Auto-SK thing may no longer just be in AE in the future. Think about what impact that will have on the rest of the game. This is by-far one of the biggest contributors to the 'problem' some people see.
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Originally Posted by Bright_Shadow
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]
What makes AE so 'popular' is the fact that it is accessible. That, and the Auto-SK feature. These reduce the time needed for farms. And time is a major factor in efficient farming. |
-Alot of people farm PI actually, serious farmers* that is. I have stated it before, I am more in the PLer crowd, but I farm quite regularly, I found in most cases, rounding up the fillers and runnin a RC content farm can be much more lucrative then AE by far.
-PLing on the other hand is a different story, AE has that part of the community pretty good, but an efficent PL'er is hard to come by. I can normally put someone 1-30ish in 1.5 -2 hours in AE. Thats efficent, but you will be HARD pressed to find someone that is B-casting for members that can do anything remotely like this. I made an experimental toon, an Emp on freedom, in 5 play sessions and 7 hours later, I am an astounding lvl 27 WOOHOO, running the maniac farms. Now I am a decent emp and I can keep people alive in most cases, but the boss farms without a good team lineup is a nightmare.
*(Note that there is in most cases a difference between farmers and PLers, farmers do it for max rewards efficently and PLers are for max xp, they vastly differ in many cases.)
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I wasn't really saying YOU were calling farmers exploiters. I was talking in general. Sorry if I came out offensive. I didn't mean to.
Originally Posted by Barata
I didn't claim farmers were exploiting the game. As both you and Hydrophidian pointed out, there are different issues that make the AE more lucrative than normal PI farming. Convenience is one. You don't need to travel far and the hospital is right there. You brought up auto-sk, and that's a valid feature too. All of these give you increased XP per hour.
But it still comes down to this..... if AE wasn't more profitable than PI, people would still be in PI. Some of the things that make AE more profitable may not necessarily be the difficulty level or the experienced gained per boss, but all components do add up to make it more profitable.
With I16, focus should shift once more towards regular missions again. Right now though, AE offers advantages that PI does not.
And please, I didn't say farmers were exploiting. I'll say that some people were exploiting at various times (Comm Officers, Mitos). That's if we use the common definition of exploiting that is used within the game.... using an intended behavior or broken mechanic for gain.
I agree with you in regards to most things.
However, I cannot see what the big deal is. The Risk vs. Reward curve is never a straight, diagonal line. It is a curve. And in every curve, there is a "point of efficiency".
Right now, this point leads farmers to AE.
If you take AE out, it'd lead farmers to somewhere else.
It's that simple. And to me, farming bosses in AE is way more fun that farming Behemoths with my Spines/Fire Scrapper. Why? Because it's more of a challenge. And with that challenge, comes greater rewards.
I am a pretty efficent farmer and i still can't figure how AE is more lucrative then RC, i get a purple every 3-5 runs(25-35) min on the demon map and in most cases it puts the profits 1.5x-3x what AE would offer.
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Meh. I get more money from tickets. I am a very unlucky person when it comes to recipe drops.
Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
I am a pretty efficent farmer and i still can't figure how AE is more lucrative then RC, i get a purple every 3-5 runs(25-35) min on the demon map and in most cases it puts the profits 1.5x-3x what AE would offer.
It is an insult to mathematical logic, mathematicians, and everyone you're arguing with.