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Fair enough, perhaps Alt is exhibiting some defensive behavior (I can understand why), but in spite of that I seriously only see someone who cares about the long term health of the game.
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Originally Posted by Folonius
Huh? Alt is out of his mind. He only cares about his play style and listens to nobody else.
This link is a great example of what Alt preaches. |
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I would be happy to deny it, i'll suggest now that in total Inf, inflation is happening due to MA.|
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
But please, continue to deny it. It illustrates my point rather succinctly.
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| That's nice. Now go ask him if MA is responsible for that inflation. This is a non sequitur. |
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Yah, you don't seem to be getting it. I'm not denying it has an impact on many players. The point is: if someone denies that it's having no impact on many players-- and it's not--then they're not seeing the whole picture. Their view, to use your own word, is myopic. Also, by definition, the number of players on which the impact has been negative must be a minority. Because if they were a majority, well, there wouldn't be a problem at all, right? |
Why are you even in this thread? There obviously isn't any problems at all with MA, why bother arguing?
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| Several of his points are, in fact, not valid. Such as, for example, that MA has caused "massive inflation" on the market... which is demonstrably wrong. |
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| I think MA is already an amazing addition to the game. |
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Trivializing the impact on any segment of the community is potentially detrimental to the game. Folks like Alt don't seem to give a toss how their "solutions" might impact me or anyone else like me. He simply labels me an exploiter and puts me on ignore. That seems like trivialization to me. |
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Oh boy.|
Originally Posted by Hugginator
And thats why there isn't thread after thread complaining about it, and instead there is thread after thread of 'everyone' saying how great the MA is!
|
Uhm. This is pretty straight-forward...
...If the majority of players were pugging regular content...
...then the people complaining that they can't find PUG teams due to MA...
...would not be having that problem.
ERGO
...those who're complaining must be a minority segment of the player base.
If they were not a minority segment, they would not be having a problem.
Follow?
I'll put it another way:
You can't claim, 'everyone is farming AE' and then try to claim, '"as someone who doesn't farm AE, I represent the majority of players' and not sound like a loon.
And as for threads, yes, the number of threads that're about arcs, playing arcs, designing arcs, recommending arcs, reviewing arcs, etc., seem to outnumber the complaint threads by a very wide margin.
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| Why are you even in this thread? |
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| There obviously isn't any problems at all with MA, why bother arguing? |
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| I think that is still arguable in terms of gross inf, a few small examples of deflation doesn't overtake a few large examples of inflation. |
There has been no massive inflation on the market since MA's launch.
What part of this is eluding you? By and large, prices are the same, lower, or slightly higher, and several of the items that MA did initially inflate have since dropped in price.
It's been months now. When, exactly, is this "massive inflation" supposed to manifest? Next month? Two months from now?
It didn't happen when MA launched, it's not happening now, and there's no indication it's going to happen in the future.
The "terms" are not "gross inf". The "terms" are: the markets.
The claim was not: "i'll suggest now that in total Inf, inflation is happening due to MA." No, you don't get to reword the claim to suit you.
The claim was: "prices are being driven up in the markets."
The claim is flat-out wrong.
The claim was: "there has been massive inflation in the markets".
There is no "massive inflation" on the markets.
Thus, the statement, "there has been massive inflation in the markets" is a false statement.
Outside of purples, it is cheaper now to outfit a character in IO sets than it was before MA. If there were "massive inflation" on the markets, that wouldn't be possible.
So, there is no argument. You simply have to go to the markets and look. There is no "massive inflation" on the markets. I'm sorry that this is inconvenient to what you and Alt want to believe. But I'm looking at what's actually going on in the game, not what people make up in their heads, or conclude based on what is obviously very limited knowledge and experience.
You talk about "trivialization", and then turn around and try to argue simple logic and plainly observable facts? Well, if it's all the same to you, I'll pass. If you want to debate those things any further, you'll have to find someone else to do it with. I'm really not interested. There are genuine issues with MA that could be discussed, but if you're not going to concede simple facts, we'll never get to them, which renders further discussion fairly well pointless.
Edited to add: Yes, you have now brilliantly illustrated the issues I've had with the anti-MA sentiments. Thank you.
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Not|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
I'm an anti-farm and I'm trying to protect the game.
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Your
Job
Leave the devs to do their job in peace. All you're doing is saber-rattling over a playstyle you dislike.
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The fact is that the AE farm/pl'rs are staying that they have a right to their game playstyle which effects everyone else's playstyles in a negative fashion. How are these AE farm/pl'rs negatively effecting the game play of myself and others?
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Heaven forbid the devs remove exploits BECAUSE THEY'RE EXPLOITS.
They'd be found and removed/fixed anyhow. Several were found this way in beta. Do I see you *BLEEP!*ing because you can't create missions consisting of nothing but Cimeroran healers? Or Council Vampire Transformation Chambers?
Please come up with a real reason.
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The AE channel didn't exist until recently. Therefore the AE spam went to the most readily accessible method. Broadcast. Now, unfortunately, it has become an entrenched behavior.
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When I was a kid we had to walk to school in the winter, uphill, BOTH WAYS!
It used to be different around here!
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But then, it wouldn't be as easy to blindly hypothesize DOOOOM.
As to their skill level. If they don't learn in AE, I'll at least spend time educating the ones who want to learn.
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As for "turn off broadcast". Watching broadcast is NOT a playstyle. If you don't want to see the crap in broadcast, you have two choices.
1: Live with it.
2: Turn off broadcast.
Nobody's forcing you to do either. YOU make the choice.
As for Broadcast being "integral", I think you're overstating the importance a bit.
Again, they're not forcing you to do ANYTHING. Your reactions to them are just that. YOUR reactions.
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| All of that is relevant. It is other players forcing the effects of their game play style on me through it's effect on my gaming environment. I like the "real" idea of the AE, but it isn't being used it is being exploited. |
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| Deal with the fact that you aren't playing the game if you are exploiting it. You are cheating. You cheat when you break the rules. If you are exploiting the game you are breaking the rules. If you are an AE farmer/pl'r then you are a cheater. It's true. |
I anxiously await a statement from the devs on this.
Until then, you're just one more person on a soapbox.
*Says the guy standing on his own soapbox*
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| Exploitation and cheating is not a valid playstyle. The fact that you are cheating and exploiting means that it is "invalid" as it is against the rules. |
PL'ing isn't cheating (though it's arguable whether it is exploiting.
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| I'd rather see an insta-50 button in the game than to continue to have to hear about how abusing the AE by farming/pl'ing is a valid playstyle. At least the insta-50 button would be a legitimate way to get to 50. |
Not sure what amount of head-deskery allows this sort of leap of..."logic".
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| Stop cheating and play the game. You might find out that you really enjoy it. I know that I do. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I disagree. I feel that he has exaggerated and misrepresented points to further support his opinion.|
Originally Posted by Hugginator
The_Alt_oholic, is bang on the point.
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Most PL'rs and Farmers are too short sighted, they can't see the forest for the trees. Its a self destructing pattern of short term thinking and greed. (yes there are exceptions and caveats, but the overarching concept is true) |
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| The truth, as Alt and others have tried to explain, is that the trivialization of the game is dangerous long term. |
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| Maybe the devs want to push the subscribers to more of a churn rate subscription type where people play for a month or 2 and move on, away from the previous type where people generally subscribed longer term, if so they should let us know asap. |
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Whatever it is, pretending that you and others are somehow 'explaining' away the points that Alt and others have made isn't working. All 'you' have done is present another opinion, and in my opinion they have been generally myopic. |
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| Maybe some of the points have value or are even correct in a vacuum, but against the bigger picture they don't carry much weight. |
Whatever...
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Emphasis on the thing that makes this statement demonstrably false.|
Originally Posted by Hugginator
And yet all the endless nerfs and adjustments to the game are primarily caused by Farmers and PL'ing (and PVP, but not PVP because 'they' specifically said they wouldn't nerf because of PVP except for the parts where they did).
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| Alt clearly is very passionate about the game and wants to see everyone enjoying it for as long as possible. |
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| I don't know why anyone is arguing with him, his points are simple, they are valid, they make sense. |
Some of his points of argument have valid grounding. HOWEVER, others are skewed, inappropriately applied, or just plain wrong. And while his points are presented simply, they're anything but simple.
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| I'm suggesting that they released a significantly imperfect addition to the game, on top of that their happy happy idea that no one would abuse the addition was a serious mistake, on top of that, the completely lackluster enforcement of their own rules ergo 1 week or more to fix HUGE exploits like Comm officers and Mitos', thats egregious in the extreme, a person could have created 2 lvl 50's per day, so in the extreme 14 lvl 50 characters, THEN! they take a week or more to punish people for using what they have created is so ridiculous as to defy imagination! |
As to your position on punishing people who utilized an exploit once it became known? Are you SERIOUS?
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| Do I have a fix? No, but then I didn't open the box did I. |
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| The big picture is the long term longevity of the game, and as I said, trivialization of the whole thing is significantly detrimental to the same. |
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| I think the players have a large part to play in that but at this point its significantly overshadowed by the incredibly poor dev support for their new creation. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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The thing was, outside of a certain idealization, achieving 50 has ALWAYS been trivial. It isn't like 50 suddenly unlocks tons of things completely unavailable to lower levels. At that point, the character is "done" and any additional tweaking is along the lines of autoeroticism.|
Originally Posted by Hugginator
Blah blah, the point being, that the short term thinking, that some new players in AE getting to lvl 50 in days 'probably' won't stick around, they have no long term interest, meaning they havn't spent any real time in game to achieve anything so why bother, they already 'won the game'.
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| A short term bubble of new players means nothing, the long term outlook is for players that stick around. |
Are there new players exclusively farming AE. Yes.
Are there vets exclusively farming AE? Yes.
Are there new players avoiding AE and doing dev content? Yes.
Are there vets avoiding AE and doing dev content? Yes.
Are there new players doing a mix of AE and dev content? Yes.
Are there vets doing a mix of AE and dev content? Yes.
Unfortunately you have no grounding for claiming any of the above populations is in the majority. Those using AE are merely the most visible to you.
While it is possible you're right, it's also possible that you're wrong too. The only ones who can answer this are the devs.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Hyperstrike. Thank you. That is all I have to say. 
Okay, apparently my first post (#207 on page 11, if anyone cares to check) wasn't offensive enough to get anyone's attention in this thread, which has quickly degenerated into a "Your playstyle SUXX!" thread.
That being the case, let me get your attention with the following statement: THERE ARE TOO MANY IDIOTS IN THIS THREAD!
Now, can we please move on to a more productive line of reasoning? Since so many of you are obviously passionate about your particular style of gaming, why not do something besides complain that a) you can't find a team, b) this aspect of the game should be nerfed/removed, c) new players who know next to nothing get on your nerves, and d) I've stated my opinion sooo many times and no one seems to listen, so now I'm gonna re-hash it one more time!
With d), I can sympathize with you. I have been making my point (if you want new players to play RC, show it to them in a polite and friendly manner, then respect their choice once they know enough to make it) on many threads recently, and only got aknowledgement yesterday. I'm frustrated too, believe me.
As far as c) goes, maybe the new players are afraid that the person they ask will be so anti-AE that all they'll get is a "you really should've known this by now, but you would if you actually PLAYED, wouldn't you." If you want new players to become knowledgable vets, then answer thier questions politely, and encourage them to contact you for further information BY NOT INSULTING THEIR PARTICULAR PLAYSTYLE.
Letter b) in the list seems to be a direct result of a), so I'll address both together. If you can't find a team, there are several steps you could take, the least productive of which is to whine about it incessantly. A better approach would be to make a team of new players and show off your favorite RC to them (which is better than showing off your opinion on the forums, as if I can say that). Saying that certain aspects of the game should be nerfed/removed to suit your personal playstyle seems extremely arrogant to me. Why should everyone conform to you? Or for that matter, even come close to conforming with you? They aren't the same as you, so expecting them to like what you like is just wrong.
Wow, I was really hostile in this post, huh? Sorry, but I guess the frustration of being ignored over and over and over is getting to me (I mean this by way of explanation, not an an excuse). Feel free to debunk my points and argue with me at your leisure. If my tone offends you, you can read my earlier post for a much calmer and more detailed statement.
*DISCLAIMER: The above is an opinion. Argue with it if you want. If I see a valid point in your argument, I will revise this opinion as necessary. Thank you for your time.*
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Just so ya know, you're not being ignored. I've read your posts. I just wouldn't have had much of a response to them beyond, "sound advice".|
Originally Posted by Lucretia_MacEvil
Sorry, but I guess the frustration of being ignored over and over and over is getting to me (I mean this by way of explanation, not an an excuse).
|
I used to offer suggestions along the lines of what you've been saying, but it just seemed to engender more hostility... so I stopped.
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Quote:
Same. People who SHOULD respond to MacEvil's posts are the ones ignoring it.
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Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
Just so ya know, you're not being ignored. I've read your posts. I just wouldn't have had much of a response to them beyond, "sound advice".
I used to offer suggestions along the lines of what you've been saying, but it just seemed to engender more hostility... so I stopped. |
I got a response!!! OMG!!!
Even if your only response is "sound advice" I'll take it. At least it would let other people know that there IS sound advice out there (plus it would be an enormous ego-boost for me, as if I need it). I'm just glad that you agree. I'm sorry that I had to snap to get anyone's attention. It worked, though.
Anyway, sound advice only works if people take it. I'm glad someone is paying attention, but I regret that I'm only getting attention by being offensive. It seems like calm forum discussions on this subject are few and far between.
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Bingo.
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Originally Posted by Lucretia_MacEvil
It seems like calm forum discussions on this subject are few and far between.
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Welcome to the internet! |
Originally Posted by Lucretia_MacEvil
It seems like calm forum discussions on this subject are few and far between.
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Well... no. Not really. |
Originally Posted by Lucretia_MacEvil
I'm sorry that I had to snap to get anyone's attention. It worked, though.
|
Firstly, I wouldn't have described the post I responded to as hostile. I'd've called it mostly thoughtful with a touch of frustration.
And what got a response from me wasn't your bold caps, it was the specific line I quoted.
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| I'm glad someone is paying attention, but I regret that I'm only getting attention by being offensive. |
If you're going for offensive and hostile, you're going to have to try a lot harder than that.
But, I want to reiterate: lack of response does not mean lack of attention. I realize it can feel that way... but, believe me, people are reading, and no response is actually often a good sign.
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My registration date and my first day of playing are not synch'd so how does this play?
|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Brand new registration date: Check.
Ultra-low post count: Check. AE is ruining the game thread: Check. Conclusion:? |
http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/
Saying that we should show the AE-Noobs the RC that the game has is not so easy...they are for most part fixed on parking themselves down in the AE buildings and ararely leaving. I have lead level 1-15 AE-Conversion run...kinda like the whole born again christian thing or the jehovah's whitness thing...but with RC. The responses I got from them is that the stories are nice but the XP is slow. I love the kalinda and Doc Creed arc and I love alot of the unlockable content in CoV ( BTW, have we ever gotten any sort of update on that system of NPCs? The Devs constantly add new badges but no new badge related contacts)
I had a spare hour this morning and I went to go try an arc, one about croatoa and rose, the daughter of adriana, I actually liked it and I actually found a better surprise...I didnt get XP for it! I may be the black sheep of the thread but I dont really like getting XP from the AE I like to use it to find stories.
Well while I was playing it solo on diff 5 I had a small idea...what is the Devs coded the AE to include a "Disable XP", If the Devs left the farming up to us? I am fine with using AE w/ or w/o XP, I dont care about tickets since I use the tickets to buy the content I want unlocked. but for XP I really think this could be a solution!
If everyone says that "no, you shouldnt remove XP"...they are not, they are leaving the option up to the authors. The marketing team can keep their pretty blue boxes of crap and the player base has control of farming and PL.
http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/
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I'm really having a hard time understanding which side of the argument you belong to. Especially with your posts in all the other threads. In regards to disabling XP, I gave you a solution in another thread.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
Saying that we should show the AE-Noobs the RC that the game has is not so easy...they are for most part fixed on parking themselves down in the AE buildings and ararely leaving. I have lead level 1-15 AE-Conversion run...kinda like the whole born again christian thing or the jehovah's whitness thing...but with RC. The responses I got from them is that the stories are nice but the XP is slow. I love the kalinda and Doc Creed arc and I love alot of the unlockable content in CoV ( BTW, have we ever gotten any sort of update on that system of NPCs? The Devs constantly add new badges but no new badge related contacts)
I had a spare hour this morning and I went to go try an arc, one about croatoa and rose, the daughter of adriana, I actually liked it and I actually found a better surprise...I didnt get XP for it! I may be the black sheep of the thread but I dont really like getting XP from the AE I like to use it to find stories. Well while I was playing it solo on diff 5 I had a small idea...what is the Devs coded the AE to include a "Disable XP", If the Devs left the farming up to us? I am fine with using AE w/ or w/o XP, I dont care about tickets since I use the tickets to buy the content I want unlocked. but for XP I really think this could be a solution! If everyone says that "no, you shouldnt remove XP"...they are not, they are leaving the option up to the authors. The marketing team can keep their pretty blue boxes of crap and the player base has control of farming and PL. |
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As I've mentioned elsewhere--I think in this thread as well, but just in case I haven't--I really don't use AE as a leveling tool. It's not worth it. You have to be doing specific things in order for AE rewards to exceed RC rewards, and I've zero interest in doing those things. The only time AE gets integrated into my leveling process is when I'm so tired of regular content, I'm willing to take a hit on progression speed to avoid it. And that's generally in the low levels, where the progression's going to be pretty zippy, regardless.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
I may be the black sheep of the thread but I dont really like getting XP from the AE I like to use it to find stories.
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This approach has been independently adopted by many of the people I know, so... you're not as much of a black sheep as you may think.
As for toggling XP gain, you have that ability as a player. And that's where I think the option belongs.
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I think this went over your head. If there was such a large issue with MA, it would be fixed. Obviously, it isn't that large of a problem, so it's staying the way it is.|
Originally Posted by Hugginator
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Why are you even in this thread? There obviously isn't any problems at all with MA, why bother arguing? |
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| I think that is still arguable in terms of gross inf, a few small examples of deflation doesn't overtake a few large examples of inflation. |
Lets assume we are farming bosses, maniacs, and we are running the farm on City 02 map. As we all know, ticket drops are capped at 1500, and this cap is extremely easy to hit. After about 10 groups, everyone on the team now has at least 800 tickets. At this point, ending the mission will give everyone another 700 tickets, putting everyone at the 1500 cap. Let's assume the don't end the mission, and they continue to fight the addition 22 spawns (you can have up to 40ish or more spawns on this map depending how it's made) and clear the map. Well, now what you have is everyone made tickets (which is essentially MA's version of salvage and recipes) and influence in the first 10 minutes. After those first 10 minutes, everyone just made influence. There is a desparity in influence and tickets which is putting more influence on the market, and less rewards. The only fix for this is to remove the ticket cap, or when someone hits 1500 tickets, they also stop earning influence. I wouldn't be opposed to either.
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| Fair enough, you seem reasonable to fair arguments, perhaps Alt is somewhat militant in his views, nevertheless I applaud him for arguing so vigorously! |
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You can turn off your xp gain under options.
| Well while I was playing it solo on diff 5 I had a small idea...what is the Devs coded the AE to include a "Disable XP", If the Devs left the farming up to us? I am fine with using AE w/ or w/o XP |
My opinions is always changing. I am in both favor and against AE. What I am fully against is the people (AE-N00bs and exploiters) that use AE as a leveling tool and using its easily accessible exchange. I also have issues with people that claim AE/MA is an alternative leveling tool...since when did the devs say that, I got the impression that the devs made this so the imaginative and creative playerbase can express their creativity?
The PL/Farm issue is like blaming guns for the death of people.
I think that the XP should be removed or given to the authors to decide if they want their arcs to grant XP.
I actually am a firm beliver of personal responsiblity, If I dont want my child to watch violent television I have two options:
1. Demand that they remove such material from broad media
2. Limit my lil angel what she can watch...on my terms.
By removing the XP from the arcs on the authors side we do two things:
1. those that do not want to have their arcs as Farm's/PL's PuGs can do so at their will.
2. It gives us the first line of defense against this issue.
It gives us a solid solution..."Do it on your own terms" Since the Devs wont remove XP because the marketting dept is a bunch on heffers they can easily implement the option to disable xp from arcs on the authors request.
As to my other posts on other threads, AE has ruined the game in the fact that it DOES do the things that other people are clamining.
I don't know everyone on this thread, I might have played with you on champion or on freedom or virtue but I know on champ redside that teams and limited...I often solo my villains. the experience from people on big servers is very diff than those on smaller servers. but I can say that what I have seen is not good.
Everyone here says that the negative is an opinion and the positive is a fact...
Can you imagine if this issue was brought up at SDCC-09....can you see the Devs sweating..I would pay to see that.
http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/
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How stupid do you have to be to see that by nature of there being a AE farming issue means a large group of players wish to have this availible to them. And would also likely leave the game if its removed.|
Originally Posted by Garcol
Why wouldnt it happen? If AE is causing people to leave the game, won't they remove it seeming that they want people to stay?
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Here is the solution. Stop worring about what other players that would likely not join teams with a bitchy little whinner anyway. They are probably farming to avoid playing with narrow minded players such as yourself that only feel their way of playing is the right way of playing.
The AE is here, many people use it, many people farm it. Many people dont, many people still run story arcs and missions. Play how you want and stop worring about those that dont share your views and let them play how they want.
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The developers have explicitly stated that one of AE's goals was to create an alternative way to level from 1 to 50. Pay attention to the game you're arguing over.|
Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
My opinions is always changing. I am in both favor and against AE. What I am fully against is the people (AE-N00bs and exploiters) that use AE as a leveling tool and using its easily accessible exchange. I also have issues with people that claim AE/MA is an alternative leveling tool...since when did the devs say that, I got the impression that the devs made this so the imaginative and creative playerbase can express their creativity?
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And if your opinion is always changing, stop asking people to agree with it and present it as an opinion. Not a fact.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
The PL/Farm issue is like blaming guns for the death of people.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
I think that the XP should be removed or given to the authors to decide if they want their arcs to grant XP.
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I haven't seen any AE farmer who farms an actual story arc.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
I actually am a firm beliver of personal responsiblity, If I dont want my child to watch violent television I have two options:
1. Demand that they remove such material from broad media 2. Limit my lil angel what she can watch...on my terms. By removing the XP from the arcs on the authors side we do two things: 1. those that do not want to have their arcs as Farm's/PL's PuGs can do so at their will. 2. It gives us the first line of defense against this issue. |
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
It gives us a solid solution..."Do it on your own terms" Since the Devs wont remove XP because the marketting dept is a bunch on heffers they can easily implement the option to disable xp from arcs on the authors request.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
As to my other posts on other threads, AE has ruined the game in the fact that it DOES do the things that other people are clamining.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
I don't know everyone on this thread, I might have played with you on champion or on freedom or virtue but I know on champ redside that teams and limited...I often solo my villains. the experience from people on big servers is very diff than those on smaller servers. but I can say that what I have seen is not good.
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If you have issues with AE and you think it has changed your gaming experience, either quit the game, or adapt. It's a video game, for cryin' out loud.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
Everyone here says that the negative is an opinion and the positive is a fact...
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What makes people angry and frustrated is when people want to enforce their opinions on others. People like Altoholic, who ignores people and calls them cheaters if they disagree with him. Which is fine. Whatever floats his boat.
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Wail
Can you imagine if this issue was brought up at SDCC-09....can you see the Devs sweating..I would pay to see that.
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Compared to my first 50, that was a positively meteoric rise.
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