Defenders balance


Aett_Thorn

 

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Plus, while 8 defenders working together is quite amazing, you'd be even more amazed what 7 defenders and a single Blaster can manage.

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Fixed.

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A Scrapper actually has higher optimum damage potential because of the inherents. Scrappers get an extra 5-10% damage on top of their 400% +dam cap whereas Blaster are simply stuck with 400% +dam because Defiance simply acts as a +dam buff.


 

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Plus, while 8 defenders working together is quite amazing, you'd be even more amazed what 7 defenders and a single Blaster can manage.

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Fixed.

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A Scrapper actually has higher optimum damage potential because of the inherents. Scrappers get an extra 5-10% damage on top of their 400% +dam cap whereas Blaster are simply stuck with 400% +dam because Defiance simply acts as a +dam buff.

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But do they get Blaze?


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Plus, while 8 defenders working together is quite amazing, you'd be even more amazed what 7 defenders and a single Blaster can manage.

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Fixed.

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A Scrapper actually has higher optimum damage potential because of the inherents. Scrappers get an extra 5-10% damage on top of their 400% +dam cap whereas Blaster are simply stuck with 400% +dam because Defiance simply acts as a +dam buff.

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But do they get Blaze?

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No, but they do get Achilles' Heel procs.


 

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Plus, while 8 defenders working together is quite amazing, you'd be even more amazed what 7 defenders and a single Blaster can manage.

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Fixed.

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A Scrapper actually has higher optimum damage potential because of the inherents. Scrappers get an extra 5-10% damage on top of their 400% +dam cap whereas Blaster are simply stuck with 400% +dam because Defiance simply acts as a +dam buff.

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But do they get Blaze?

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No, but they do get Achilles' Heel procs.

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Playing on my weakness for Katana scrappers is not fair.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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PC_Guy

Storm and Sonic, both of which debuff, and fighting at high level. I've already said that debuff sets seem to do fairly well, and that the problem exists more significantly at lower level.


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Orly? for the most part i would consider the lower levels to be much easier to solo since for the most part all the baddies are pretty strait forward i.e. skulls, hellions, trolls. Also im pretty sure psyonico has a video of his emp/nrg(?) soloing a few EBs and missions if you would like for me to find and post that as well.

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you are correct

Fruit-Salad vs. Heracles, on invincible
Fruit-Salad vs Chimera, I want to say this was on unyielding
Fruit-Salad vs. a Carnie paper mission set to invincible.


No

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo

I think you underestimate our fools, sir.

Why /duel is a bad idea

 

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I'll firstly say I did not read this entire thread, but browsed the first couple posts for what first nagged at me.

You have your scrapper and defender. I understand this. However, the one thing I don't know is the build, other than having their Tier 1 attacks, Tough, Bubble, and that's about it for the Defender. There's a lot of stuff one can do with the build, however, if we're talking soloing and there's a lot of powers that are up in the air of what you have, then how can it be a fair comparison of soloing.

If your defender is soloing with the ally bubbles, then you don't have a full range of powers at your disposal. Also, if you only have 1 attack from your attacking set on either, it's not going to go as well as you'd like. For defenders, especially solo, the secondary is equally important than the primary. You need to buff yourself/enemies, but if you only have 1 of your attacks from your blasts, it's not an adequate judge of what your character can do.

We already know your scrapper had at least two attacks, which allows for attack chains, which allow the enemies to die faster. That's my major problem I didn't see in your post nor talked about in the first page. People's builds, play styles, and overall experience with the game allows for different results. A level 22 FF/? with powers almost exclusively power pool and primary and is fairly new to the game isn't going to be able to do nearly as well solo than someone with a mix of soloing primary, secondary blasts, and some power pools that's been playing since CoH first came out.

Just food for thought on the opening post.


50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec

 

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I'm a bit late to the party, but I'd like to say that he has a small point about the buffing sets. I really doubt that the devs will give Defenders an overall damage boost, because taken all together there is absolutely no need for it. The only sets that tend to lag behind the others for soloing are FF, Empathy, and (maybe) Sonic. I don't think a boost for those two sets to boost soloability would be out of the question, although I have no idea where the devs would apply them. As Catwhoorg said, the Ally-only buffs are Ally-only for a reason.

I guess they could add some damage to Force Bolt, and maybe a small damage buff to Recovery Aura or Regeneration Aura (to the caster only), but that's basically it as far as Defenders' needs seem to go.

I know a lot of people are holding out for a better inherent, and one which can be used solo, but the fact that many Defenders do so well without one makes improving Vigilance a very low priority.

The other thing I'd point out is that the OP's Defender is only level 22 or so and that Defenders' power levels often climb a very steep curve. I had a Dark Defender who had to level a mission twice at level 16 in order to finish it. Granted half the problem was the fact that it was Talshak's last mission and the map I got was the Oranbega map with the bloody portal room and its lovely Behemoths. Not my most heroic-feeling moment. Six levels later the same character easily tore through Faultline and every one of the Elite Bosses the devs stuck there. Poor Heracles couldn't manage a single hit. My SR scrapper managed the same thing against Terra, but took 10-12 more levels to reach that kind of ability. High-level Defenders are among the most powerful characters in the game, and being a slow starter doesn't really prove that the AT as a whole is underperforming.

Another point a few other people have addressed is that the OP's particular character, being a concept, is actually quite a bit weaker than an FF/Energy actually has to be. Several useful powers were skipped over in order to open up pools. The OP can build the character he likes, obviously, but if he skips a good power for concept reasons, I don't think he can really complain when another character turns out to be a better performer.


 

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No, he has no point whatsoever, be it small, large, buffing or debuffing sets. The guy is full of crap.


 

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I don't mean to skip anyone, but I'm not going to comment at length here. If I skip you, I apologize.

First, CDN_Guardian, you can be dismissive if you like, but I don't know why you're bothering if you're not going to read the points I've brought up.

I agree, Tankmagery is to be avoided. However, I don't see allowing Defenders to buff themselves in deficient sets like Force Fields is going to create that. There's no damage buff in that set, so his damage output remains very low. It may be argued that his defense is higher than other Defender sets, however. In this case, I would suggest that this is appropriate since the Force Field set has no way to increase damage. It's only a matter of finding a balance point.

I also agree, I'm not the sole arbiter of fun. That's why I've avoided addressing that, and instead have concerned myself with balance/parity.


I never brought up the dev post about Defenders being balanced, someone else brought it up to me, and I commented to avoid the need for that being further belaboured. I made no Straw Man, it's a combination that CAN exist in the game, and so needs to be comparable to other builds. As I mentioned, it's actually got BETTER defenses than most other FF Defenders.


If I ignored something someone said, I didn't mean to. I've never said that everything should be equal, only that they should be equivalent. This is not the same thing. It means that all characters should be able to complete the same tasks, regardless of powers or AT, even if it's accomplished by different means.


When I originally build the character, I had Force Bolt. I found it far too draining on endurance to be a viable defense, and it cut badly into potential offense. I've skipped Detention Bubble, but it's of limited value, and can be intensely annoying. It is true it would help defense though.

Again, though, the pool powers are not taking away from my defenses, they're actually making them STRONGER. If I left them out, I'd have 0% resistance instead of 15% (21% now I'm L23).


A Scrapper benefits from being on a team just as much as a Defender does. They bring different things to the team, but they each benefit equally.


It seems obvious that the AT, or at least this set, DOES NOT excel in every area of the game. The numbers alone suggest that.


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This part seems the weakest part of your argument. The Defender is expected to overcome challenges related to threats incoming to teammates and allies, (and to a lesser degree himself). The Scrapper is expected to overcome challenges more related to single enemies having higher than normal indefeatability. This interpretation isn't sophistry.

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I'll address this more directly. The Defender is expected to overcome challenges to teammates, as you say, but so is every other AT. The Defender must ALSO be expected to overcome solo challenges, since all the other ATs can do so.

Scrappers bring critical hits to teams, but this also benfits them. Blaster bring damage to teams, but this also benefits them. Tankers bring aggro management to teams, and the ability to survive this feat is useful to them solo, and Controllers bring crowd control to teams, which is also useful to them solo.

Defenders bring buffs and debuffs, but only the debuffs are useful to the solo Defender. The buffing Defender has nothing (or very little, at least) for soloing.


My build may indeed be unusual, but the numbers don't lie. He has less than half the health and damage output and much, much less defense than the Scrapper, and this build actually has more defenses than some others might.



As I've said, I've not seen it, but I'm willing to concede that not all Defenders have this sort of problem. It seems to be the buffing sets that suffer because they don't benefit from their own powers, unlike the debuffing sets.

Thus, I'm now considering ways of adjusting the buffing sets in a way that will allow them to be used by the Defender (eg. Force Fielders would be able to bubble themselves).

Feel free to discuss further, but until I have something new to contribute, I'll likely not post much more.


 

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Thus, I'm now considering ways of adjusting the buffing sets in a way that will allow them to be used by the Defender (eg. Force Fielders would be able to bubble themselves).

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Thank you for blessing us with your wisdom


 

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A Scrapper benefits from being on a team just as much as a Defender does. They bring different things to the team, but they each benefit equally.

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Once again, you are missing the fundamental point of the Defender AT. The TEAM benefits from having the Defender, much more than the Defender benefits from being on the team.


 

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I agree, Tankmagery is to be avoided. However, I don't see allowing Defenders to buff themselves in deficient sets like Force Fields is going to create that. There's no damage buff in that set, so his damage output remains very low. It may be argued that his defense is higher than other Defender sets, however. In this case, I would suggest that this is appropriate since the Force Field set has no way to increase damage. It's only a matter of finding a balance point.

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You do realize that allowing Defenders to target themselves would allow SO slotted FF defenders to softcap themselves along with the rest of their team? The inability to make oneself nearly unkillable is the price you pay for being able to make everyone on your team nearly unkillable.

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I also agree, I'm not the sole arbiter of fun. That's why I've avoided addressing that, and instead have concerned myself with balance/parity.

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Which you address by comparing a build that is renowned for it's team capability and poor soloing capability with a build that is renowned for its soloing capability and only marginal teaming capability? Your argument is flawed.

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If I ignored something someone said, I didn't mean to. I've never said that everything should be equal, only that they should be equivalent. This is not the same thing. It means that all characters should be able to complete the same tasks, regardless of powers or AT, even if it's accomplished by different means.

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Equivalent - adjective - equal in value, measure, force, effect, significance, etc

Yes, they do mean the same thing. If two things are equivalent, then they are equal. The reason you keep finding the sets to be unequal is because you continually refuse to actually consider the performance of the two builds within the confines of a team and insist on using their performance while solo (with you at their helm) as the sole piece of evidence.

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A Scrapper benefits from being on a team just as much as a Defender does. They bring different things to the team, but they each benefit equally.

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This right here demonstrates how little you actually know about how the game really works. Scrappers contribute to the team in a purely additive fashion. If the team had an arbitrary value of 10, the Scrapper would add an arbitrary value of 4. Defenders add to the team in a multiplicative and additive fashion. If the team had an arbitrary value of 10, the defender would multiply the effectiveness of all of his other teammates by 50% by making them more effective and add an extra 1 to it by its own direct contributions. This would give the Scrappers team an arbitrary value of 14, and the Defender's team an arbitrary value of 16.

To make it short, Scrappers are force additive. Defenders are force multipliers. Scrappers are a high static value that regardless of who else is on the team (unless those others on the team are Defenders/Controllers that are operating by multiplying the Scrapper). Defenders are low static value that contributes by making everyone else on the team significantly more effective. Through this definable difference in how they operate and contribute, it's obvious that a Scrapper is going to solo significantly better than a Defender simply because the Defender doesn't have anyone else around to multiply the effectiveness off.

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It seems obvious that the AT, or at least this set, DOES NOT excel in every area of the game. The numbers alone suggest that.

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Your numbers suggest that especially since you're interpreting them with a specific conclusion in mind. You're operating under the assumption that there is something wrong with Defenders. It's always possible to twist the data to say whatever you want them to say, especially if you're using incomplete or specifically chosen data sets (or, in your case, Data points) that exist explicitly to demonstrate the conclusion that you've already come to.

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I'll address this more directly. The Defender is expected to overcome challenges to teammates, as you say, but so is every other AT. The Defender must ALSO be expected to overcome solo challenges, since all the other ATs can do so.

Scrappers bring critical hits to teams, but this also benfits them. Blaster bring damage to teams, but this also benefits them. Tankers bring aggro management to teams, and the ability to survive this feat is useful to them solo, and Controllers bring crowd control to teams, which is also useful to them solo.

Defenders bring buffs and debuffs, but only the debuffs are useful to the solo Defender. The buffing Defender has nothing (or very little, at least) for soloing.

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My build may indeed be unusual, but the numbers don't lie. He has less than half the health and damage output and much, much less defense than the Scrapper, and this build actually has more defenses than some others might.

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The numbers may not lie, but you're more than capable of making the numbers say whatever you want them to say in order to make your own point. Claiming that the numbers support you whenever you're using innately flawed methods for determining equivalence by looking at a single dimension for balance whenever the ATs are designed on a multidimensional axis. I could just as easily claim that Scrappers are underpowered on teams because they're overshadowed by Blasters because a Blaster is capable of achieving near identical levels of survivability and has the added benefits of superior native damage and range, except that it's not true because a Blaster has to specifically be on a team in order to achieve that.

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As I've said, I've not seen it, but I'm willing to concede that not all Defenders have this sort of problem. It seems to be the buffing sets that suffer because they don't benefit from their own powers, unlike the debuffing sets.

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This is simply something that buffers and debuffers have to deal with though it is actually balanced if you look at it holistically (which I doubt you do simply because you're incapable of realizing beyond a first glance that it could be balanced). While buffers have to deal with decreased effectiveness while solo in order to make up for incredible effectiveness while on teams, debuffers have to deal with the mirror issue: debuffs are less effective against targets that are higher levels. While solo, you will face foes of a lower level thanks to how the spawning system works. While on a team, you will face foes that are of a higher level. While on a team and fighting these higher level foes, the Purple Patch makes all of those incredibly powerful debuffs less effective. When fighting foes that are substantially more powerful (4 levels above you), all debuffs are reduced to only 48% effectiveness on top of any debuff resistance that the target may already have (such as AV resistance). Buffs, on the other hand, are immune to this. The 15% +def that you grant to your teammate will work equally well against an even level enemy as against a +4 enemy. That's a decided advantage, especially when you consider that debuffs have to be reapplied whenever the target dies whereas buffs only need to be applied in the much more rare circumstances that the recipient dies. On a team that is actually steamrolling through the mobs, it's much more efficient to have a buffer than a debuffer simply because the buffs will be up at all times (as long as they're reapplied regularly) whereas the debuffs will need to be constantly reapplied and, thanks to their recharges and animations, will actually have downtimes.

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Thus, I'm now considering ways of adjusting the buffing sets in a way that will allow them to be used by the Defender (eg. Force Fielders would be able to bubble themselves).

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Which would more than likely make those buffing defenders that actually team incredibly enthused because, now that their buffs have been balanced significantly downwards in order to make up for their ability to target themselves, they're no longer capable of actually supporting their team to the same extent that they once were, not to mention the fact that the devs would have to actually rework the code to allow for self targeting. Excellent idea. I'm glad that you are the one that is actually thinking up solutions for it. I'm sure that they'll be well informed and more than balanced. [/sarcasm]

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Feel free to discuss further, but until I have something new to contribute, I'll likely not post much more.

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Not that you've had anything new to contribute to this discussion since it began. You've simply rehashed the same lopsided comparisons over and over again in an attempt to make your point via persistence rather than through substance.


 

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When I originally build the character, I had Force Bolt. I found it far too draining on endurance to be a viable defense, and it cut badly into potential offense. I've skipped Detention Bubble, but it's of limited value, and can be intensely annoying. It is true it would help defense though.

Again, though, the pool powers are not taking away from my defenses, they're actually making them STRONGER. If I left them out, I'd have 0% resistance instead of 15% (21% now I'm L23).

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A solo FF defender would get vastly more mitigation by smart uses of Force Bolt and Detention Field than Tough and Weave are going to add at the low levels. Tough and Weave are decent additions in the higher levels but unwise selections in the early levels.

Choosing melee attacks (Air Sup and Boxing) as important sources of damage on a build whose best mitigation involves knockback is also a unwise choice.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Again, though, the pool powers are not taking away from my defenses, they're actually making them STRONGER. If I left them out, I'd have 0% resistance instead of 15% (21% now I'm L23).


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The opportunity cost is that you are missing powers which would work better than those you chose.

Yes the powers make you stronger, but other powers could have made you MUCH stronger.



@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

 

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Alright. I'm finished posting here. People have decided the time has come to stop discussing and instead have decided it's better to be snide and sarcastic, and even insulting.

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Thank you for blessing us with your wisdom

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if you look at it holistically (which I doubt you do simply because you're incapable of realizing beyond a first glance that it could be balanced)

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Not that you've had anything new to contribute to this discussion since it began. You've simply rehashed the same lopsided comparisons over and over again in an attempt to make your point via persistence rather than through substance.

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Sarcastic, insulting and snide. You could have made your points in a civilized manner.

I came to the thread with a premise, and when that premise was shown to be false, I reevaluated and offered another possible explanation for my observations. That IS contributing something new.

Equal and equivalent are not the same thing.

As I explained, Equal would mean they're the same. Equivalent means they're different in substance, but equivalent overall. An example is the difference between Blaster and Tankers. Blasters have good damage, and low defense, Tankers have low(ish) damage and high defense. They're not EQUAL, because they're different, but they are EQUIVALENT because they are both able to operate to the same level of effect.


Boxing was necessary to get Tough. Air Superiority was taken because it's just too useful. I usually just set it to autofire and it knocks down anyone that gets too close. That's damage AND mitigation.

Tough and Weave provide adequate defense after SOs. He won't be a Tank, but he'll be MUCH better off. In reality, it's Weave I was after. The Defense bonus, coupled with Dispersion Bubble makes for some decent defense.


In any case, I'm done here. If you refrain from further personal slurs, I'll not have to post again.


 

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Boxing was necessary to get Tough. Air Superiority was taken because it's just too useful. I usually just set it to autofire and it knocks down anyone that gets too close. That's damage AND mitigation.

Tough and Weave provide adequate defense after SOs. He won't be a Tank, but he'll be MUCH better off. In reality, it's Weave I was after. The Defense bonus, coupled with Dispersion Bubble makes for some decent defense.

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Air Sup is fine mitigation (as well as a step towards your travel power, although you also have Hover, so ). I have also submitted that Tough and Weave are not bad choices eventually, but are merely less desirable in the low-mid levels.

It looks to me like you made a FF/Nrg defender and are trying to choose powers and play it like a scrapper. A FF/Nrg defender thrives on movement, both of themselves and the enemy. With Detention Field, Force Bolt, and your blasts, you shouldn't need Air Sup, Boxing, Tough, or Weave. Even skipping Detention Field, you should be able to keep solo spawns locked down, but it requires not only knocking them back, but also moving yourself. You even have 3 slotted Hover and Hurdle (I might have gone Swift and relied on my flight, but Hurdle is awesome as well), so nothing should be able to get near you anyway, unless you let them. If you are letting enemies get in melee with a powerset and with pool powers that are superbly designed to prevent just that event, you are playing way out of type. It would be like taking a Katana/Inv scrapper and trying to use your origin attack power, Divine Avalanche, the Nemesis Staff, the Presence pool, and Calling the Wolf and then complaining that scrappers were weak and needed a buff.

A meleefender with FF/Nrg is about as far afield from design as it gets. Have you considered playing differently or maybe choosing different sets? Sonic/Sonic could work OK with your concept. Kin/Elec would also work as a hero in powersuit very well, and makes a fabulous meleefender.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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As my experience with Air Superiority on my Defenders, I tend to use it on teams to keep the harder targets mitigated. My Storm/Dark has it, along with my Mind/FF. They help keep the tougher target from being able to attack. As such, my team can focus on defeating the rest of the minions or taking out my KD'd target quickly so I can go about different things.

However, a lot of this has to do with tactics as well. If you're soloing on a power set for the first time playing the power set, especially a defender and maybe controller, you may be missing a key piece of tactical advantage. Sometimes my Earth/Storm can Stone Cages the mob and run around a corner or far enough away and successfully mitigate most of the mob's fire power on me. In turn, she can also use KB mitigation and combine it with Snow Storm and Quicksand to keep melee enemies out of range and on their bums for a long time. I've played 2 Earth character to at least 30, and 5+ Storm characters, so I'm aware of how well they work along and then figure out how to make synergy together, which is the fun part of leveling them slowly.

If it's your first time messing with FF or Energy Blast, you're at a disadvantage. That's why when I start to explore a new power set, I tend to couple it with something that I already know fairly well. There's been a few times that I've messed with two completely new power sets. Even my Illusion/Thermal I have at level 21 right now, I've played Illusion a bit to like level 12 one maybe twice and Thermal I've done it maybe once to less than that. With a level 50 Mind character and a Empathy character to 32 and 50 before I made my Illusion/Thermal that I have now, I left comfortable with the general ideas of both power sets. They are by no means the same, but I know how to make tactical choices that benefit not only myself, but my team I'm on.

As I stated before, experience does have something to say about how well things go over. Someone can have a perfect build for a scrapper and still struggle with it if they don't know what they're doing with it. That's why I like my Dominators, they get Control/Support/Damage in both range and melee. However, this is the Defender forums, so let's keep our eyes on that point of view.


50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec

 

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In any case, I'm done here. If you refrain from further personal slurs, I'll not have to post again.

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So you'll only post if I insult you? Why?


 

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Alright. I'm finished posting here. People have decided the time has come to stop discussing and instead have decided it's better to be snide and sarcastic, and even insulting.

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I kinda noticed that about the Defender boards in general. From the people who throw temper tantrums if anyone uses the word "Healer" or DARES to ask for an Empath, to the people that expect everyone to do what they say when they say it and feel they are the "backbone" and "leader" of any team, regardless of it's makeup or even who has the star; this board isn't worth discussing anything on.

Very few want to behave like adults here. So I give a run on sentence in agreement with you.


 

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The Defender boards have a very low threshold for ignorance, silliness and/or general stupidity.

Let me apologize on behalf of all of us if we've set the bar too high and you find yourself unable to participate in discussions on this board.


 

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It would be like taking a Katana/Inv scrapper and trying to use your origin attack power, Divine Avalanche, the Nemesis Staff, the Presence pool, and Calling the Wolf and then complaining that scrappers were weak and needed a buff.

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This is pretty much the problem here. Ultimo, you could easily make a much stronger character by picking better powers, and playing more efficiently. But instead, you chose bad powers, and a bad playstyle, and then attributed your troubles to a design issue, rather than your decisions to have bad power choices, and a bad playstyle.

What you're doing is equivalent to playing a theoretical scrapper, taking none of his attacks other than his basic tier 1, his 'temporary' ranged origin power, and a bunch of pool powers. That same Scrapper would come to these boards and complain about how weak he is, but you wouldn't say Scrappers are weak. You would say, he picked bad powers, and chooses to play in a manner that's less than efficient. And that's exactly what you've done.

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It may not be optimal, but I consider it a flaw in the class if you have to build one specific way to be viable.

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But Defenders aren't the only ones with this problem. Every archetype, if built poorly (ie. bad power choices and bad playstyle), will have a hard time soloing. If you build a Blaster or Controller the way you did, I would bet you'd be having troubles, too. But then this is a game wide issue, and a much more philosophical, and subjective problem.

Of course, I do believe there is an issue with how weak lots of powers are (the pool powers, mostly), but that's not a Defender-specific problem. It's something that affects every archetype.

Now, assuming you take the advice given here, you should perform much better, but not solo as well as a Scrapper. But you've already acknowledged this, and accepted it, right? You said it's okay that Tankers, Controllers, and Blasters can't solo as well as Scrappers. What's important is that you could solo with a modicum of efficiency. So the Defender's solo capabilities should be good enough for you as well, assuming you change things up a little.

I'm sorry if you find this post insulting, but this is just how I see things. I don't intend to insult you, but I believe your argument is flawed for the reasons I've stated.


 

Posted

Look, I'm not FF expert but I understand what concept the OP is trying to do (not that I agree with hit).

I tossed this (incomplete) build together in about 2 mins as a quick (read very quick) example of what kind of def & offense FF/Eng is capable of while maintaining your concept.

Assuming Mid's isn't lying to me, you're looking at soft capped ranged, AoE & Melee def while hovering, a solid ranged attack chain, reasonable melee damage with TF, and solid damage mitigation powers in FB, DF & RB. You've even got solid S/L resist (70% can't be right, is it defender peoples?). You can even drop in an additional AoE attack if needed or wanted. You're also looking at a nice ~30% damage boost with the set bonuses & assault (and I'm sure you can add more with IOs if you take the time to finish the build). The IO's I used are not overly costly.

The only downside I see is it would take time for your build to mature into your concept, but once at lvl 50 and done, you'd have a pretty good IronManlike toon IMO.


Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Level 46 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Power Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(11), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 4: Force Bolt -- FrcFbk-Dmg/KB(A), FrcFbk-Acc/KB(19), FrcFbk-Rchg/KB(19), FrcFbk-Rchg/EndRdx(21), FrcFbk-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(21), FrcFbk-Rechg%(23)
Level 6: Hover -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(7), Zephyr-ResKB(7)
Level 8: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Power Burst -- Empty(A), Empty(23), Empty(31), Empty(31), Empty(31), Empty(33)
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(13), DefBuff(13), Empty(37), Empty(39), Empty(40)
Level 14: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(15), Zephyr-ResKB(15)
Level 16: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Detention Field -- Empty(A), Empty(34)
Level 20: Stamina -- Empty(A), Empty(34), Empty(34)
Level 22: Aim -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(33), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(33), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Build%(37)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(25), DefBuff(25)
Level 26: Repulsion Bomb -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(27), Det'tn-Dmg/Rng(29), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29)
Level 28: Assault -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Tactics -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Boxing -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(40), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(40), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), T'Death-Dam%(43)
Level 35: Tough -- ResDam(A), ResDam(36), ResDam(36), EndRdx-I(46)
Level 38: Weave -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(39), DefBuff(39), EndRdx-I(43)
Level 41: Power Build Up -- Empty(A), Empty(42), Empty(42)
Level 44: Temp Invulnerability -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), ResDam(45), ResDam(45), ResDam(45), EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Total Focus -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(48), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(48), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50), T'Death-Dam%(50)
Level 49: Conserve Power -- Empty(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
------------


 

Posted

I have to add my two bits.

I play a kin/psy defender - first character to 50 - and a claws/regen scrapper, also at 50.

Because of timezone issues, when I get to play CoH, it's usually hard even to find a PuG, let alone a good team, so both characters have played a lot of solo content.

The defender had a real struggle. Before difficulty levels were introduced, there were multiple missions where I had to beg for assistance, because they were simply impossible, even with inspirations.

Kinetics before fulcrum shift doesn't have a good self-buff (the time spent using Siphon Power is better used just hitting the opponent again; the debuff is insufficient, is resisted by damage resistance, and doesn't last long, while the buff is not large enough for long enough to make a significant difference solo.) Even after Fulcrum Shift, the damage debuff is not sufficient to significantly help solo survivability.

In fact, what makes kinetics at all survivable at low to mid levels is Transfusion.

Psychic blast is also a bit of an underwhelmer. TK blast does good damage, but the knockback is not reliable. Will Domination's sleep side effect is very useful, but still has a 20% chance of not triggering. It's not until Scramble Thoughts that my defender had any hope of surviving an encounter with two mezzers.

What made the character viable was the EPP. Mass Hypnosis and Dominate made her a pseudo-controller, and suddenly she was able to survive most missions with little trouble. Only robots really give trouble now, being 50% resistant to psi, and unable to be slept.

So, after 44 levels, and basically becoming a controller-lite, the defender could start soloing without gnashing of teeth and begging for assistance.

My claws/regen scrapper has never had any trouble, except for once in a Vanguard mission. Once. Claws was even regarded as being fairly underpowered, but seriously, it was like easy mode.

At level 50, the defender can solo most missions above Heroic, is only occasionally frustrating to play, but moves very slowly in solo missions. At level 50, the claws scrapper races through solo missions, and has never really seen any grief.

In team missions, both are good characters. The scrapper does a good amount of damage, and can take a fair amount of aggro. Knock-down and knock-back provide some control. The defender though spends a quarter of the time applying speed boost, and while fulcrum shift is great for tankers and scrappers, blasters pretty much just ignore it because their nukes are good enough already. Dominate from the EPP is very useful in a team situation too, of course.

Playing the two were like night and day. It shouldn't be the case that Defenders, having a more interesting gameplay, should be so much less effective solo. It was so frustrating playing the defender, that I stopped playing for months (and when I came back, I started with the scrapper.) I play both now, and both are fun, but I can't see why we need such an imbalance.


 

Posted

Defender.

De Fen Der.

Defender.

That's all I'm gonna say.


I will not rest until we have in-game throwable pies!

 

Posted

Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...