[ QUOTE ]
Force Fields cannot increase the Defender's mitigation.
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't do yourself any favors with stuff like this.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Yet they can still solo on Invincible.
Sigh.
OBVIOUSLY, there are powers in the set that do some mitigation. I didn't think I had to spell it out, I was under the impression that you all knew something about the subject.
Tell me exactly how a Force Field Defender's Insulation Shield increases his mitigation. Tell me how an Empath's Fortitude increases his damage.
My point remains the same, and it remains valid.
Buffing Defenders suffer a disadvantage that no one else suffers, not even debuffing Defenders.
Insulation will never increase a Force Field Defender's mitigation. But neither will a Kinetic's Increase Density, an Empathy's Fortitude or any other ally buff...Because they're ally buffs. An Empathy can't buff its damage with Fortitude, but Assault provides more than half of Fortitude's damage buff to both the Empathy and the rest of the team.
A Defender will probably never solo as quickly or easily as a Scrapper, but they can all solo.
Note: I'm not against buffing Defenders. I just don't think it is necessary.
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't think I had to spell it out, I was under the impression that you all knew something about the subject.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're making it hard to believe you know something about the subject with quips like those.
Most defenders have a harder time soloing than other archetypes. Everyone knows this. It's accepted. They can still solo all content they're intended to be able to solo (everything a single character on heroic can get short of some elite bosses). Buffing defenders suffer disadvantages no one else suffers. They also benefit from advantages debuffing defeners don't.
Point out something you think needs to be achievable by a character than cannot be done by a particular defender powerset combination, and we'll either show you how it can be done or why it isn't intended to be done by all solo characters. You're playing merry-go-round on this type of topic for years because your attempts and citing specific examples shows problems with builds or expectations, not powersets or archetypes.
And that is exactly my point. These buffs cannot help the Defender, but the debuffing Defender's debuffs DO help HIM.
Assault, eh? Sounds like someone is making a MAN build, using powers from outside his set in an effort to do what his own powers should be doing.
(I only say this because I've been attacked for posting a build using pools for exactly that reason. If it's wrong for me, it's wrong for you, too. No offense intended.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't think I had to spell it out, I was under the impression that you all knew something about the subject.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're making it hard to believe you know something about the subject with quips like those.
Most defenders have a harder time soloing than other archetypes. Everyone knows this. It's accepted. They can still solo all content they're intended to be able to solo (everything a single character on heroic can get short of some elite bosses). Buffing defenders suffer disadvantages no one else suffers. They also benefit from advantages debuffing defeners don't.
Point out something you think needs to be achievable by a character than cannot be done by a particular defender powerset combination, and we'll either show you how it can be done or why it isn't intended to be done by all solo characters. You're playing merry-go-round on this type of topic for years because your attempts and citing specific examples shows problems with builds or expectations, not powersets or archetypes.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's obviously NOT accepted, or there wouldn't be endless threads like this.
[ QUOTE ]
It's obviously NOT accepted, or there wouldn't be endless threads like this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I've missed it, but where is someone claiming most defenders solo easier or faster than other particular archetypes? People are shouting that defenders can solo, not that they're universally better at it than any other AT.
[ QUOTE ]
Point out something you think needs to be achievable by a character than cannot be done by a particular defender powerset combination, and we'll either show you how it can be done or why it isn't intended to be done by all solo characters.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think a good test to show what Ultimo is trying to illustrate (and the main reason my main Ranged toon is a Device Blaster instead of a defender) would be something like the following:
Take a sampling of power combinations from several ATs,
especially Defender and level them from 1-20 using the following Guidelines.
1) Lowest Difficulty settings
2) Solo play only, choose the same origin and do the exact same mission arcs.
3) No influence gained from twinking, only TOs and DOs, no IOs or sets
4) NO POOL POWERS
You then need to judge each set based on the following factors;
1) Time spent getting to level 20
2) Number of deaths doing so
You will find your answers here.
I dont doubt that a level 50 fully tricked-out Defender does fine in his own missions. Nor do I feel all Defender powersets suffer from what Ultimo is expressing, but there is a serious disconnect with CERTAIN power sets in their ability to solo, especially at lower levels. If that is how the game is intended to be, so be it, but I want to play a HERO. Sometimes you act alone, sometimes you band together for a great event.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
[ QUOTE ]
OBVIOUSLY, there are powers in the set that do some mitigation. I didn't think I had to spell it out, I was under the impression that you all knew something about the subject.
[/ QUOTE ]
You also made the generalizing whine that defenders can't defend themselves as someone working with PFF.
If your written logic has gaps, don't complain when you're called on them.
[ QUOTE ]
Buffing Defenders suffer a disadvantage that no one else suffers, not even debuffing Defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps they suffer this disadvantage because buffs aren't given the short stick by the purple patch the way debuffs are. Perhaps they suffer this disadvantage because they are 'the most team friendly' and 'least solo friendly' AT. Perhaps they suffer this disadvantage because the title of the AT is "Defender" not "Self Buffing Azz Kikr".
[ QUOTE ]
G_Tanker
I've said that exact thing (I'm posting in a buch of similar threads, and have lost track of where). Tankers and Defenders suffer more from endurance issues because they are forced to use more endurance to accomplish the same ends as other ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's like someone designed them thinking they would be the 'defensive' AT's.
[ QUOTE ]
You call my build a MAN build, but the reality is that I have almost all the powers I can use in both of my power sets. Only Force Bolt isn't in there. The other powers I took actually INCREASE my personal defense, as I have already said.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm glad it's gotten better from when you were bemoaning your solo prowess with both the FF shields that you couldn't use for solo. Still, I'd question tough and weave - solo, you'll never see enough mobs for them to make a significant difference - you can actively mitigate through kb and detention for the same net effect.
[ QUOTE ]
All characters, even Defenders haev to be able to defeat their foes. That's what the game is about.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've been whining that it takes you *longer* to kill content than your scrapper. Yet you're still doing it. Defenders have no problem defeating appropriate solo content. Furthermore, any team with a defender on it has a much better chance of defeating team content.
Heck, I took a level 33 shield/fire tanker with *unenhanced attacks* (plus no buildup and only scorch, boxing, sands of mu, fsc, and combustion - none with any enhancements) and killed a +1 boss & cleared a room of +1 lts and mins because I forgot I was still on CL3 while I ran the midnighter arc between farming sessions. Inspirations are fantastic little things, learn to use them.
Let me quote you from near the start of the thread, because your argument is fundamentally flawed:
[ QUOTE ]
My problem is that I'm seeking parity.
That is, if we start from the same starting point, all the classes should be the same. From there Blaster get more offense but pay with less defense. Tankers get more defense, but pay with less offense. Scrappers, having a relative balance are more or less the standard. Controllers have more defense, and pay by having less health. Defenders have less offense, less defense (though this is being debated here) and less health. If we allow that their defense is higher, it's been paid for, either by lower offense OR lower health. As it is, BOTH conditions exist.
[/ QUOTE ]
You seem to think parity in this game is balanced around solo play. You didn't know what a force multiplier was. /sigh
If you want a top notch soloing defender, roll the appropriate sets and IO them out. Defenders are not generally solo inclined. If you want "to solo fast and feel like a superhero" ... roll a scrapper or blaster. Heck, blasters get PFF in the 40's. I'm fairly sure the devs won't listen to this wheel no matter how loud you squeak - they're well aware of how powerful defenders are.
[ QUOTE ]
Defender powersets suffer from what Ultimo is expressing, but there is a serious disconnect with CERTAIN power sets in their ability to solo, especially at lower levels. If that is how the game is intended to be, so be it, but I want to play a HERO. Sometimes you act alone, sometimes you band together for a great event.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, COX is not balanced around the solo game. Some sets and AT's are solo inclined. Some are not.
All *CAN* solo intended content on heroic, with varying degrees of efficiency.
[ QUOTE ]
Sigh.
OBVIOUSLY, there are powers in the set that do some mitigation. I didn't think I had to spell it out, I was under the impression that you all knew something about the subject.
Tell me exactly how a Force Field Defender's Insulation Shield increases his mitigation. Tell me how an Empath's Fortitude increases his damage.
My point remains the same, and it remains valid.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, we are all going to respond to the words you say. You did not say "Insulation Shield cannot increase the Defender's mitigation". You said "Force Fields cannot...". That statement was false. If you don't want to be called out, say what you mean and don't expect readers to divine a completely different meaning from what you say.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
As a point of reference, I have played many defenders to SO level at least and have abandoned each of them for more or less the same reason. --> soloing was really un-spectacular
Defender A) Forcefield-Rad , deleted in the first month after launch before even making level 20. Reason: massive death rates. Conclusion : Defenders are not a beginner's AT and/or must be grouped to work
Defender B) Dedicated group Defender Empathy-Rad, survived until level 22 by being ONLY used in a small team setting. after team fell apart, tried to respec and turn him into a capable soloer. Finally deleted as I would rather stab Forks in my head than solo an Empath .... EVER
Defender (C) Radiation-Electric, Hey this one worked. Great group character and capable of soloing. Retired because I did not like Anchor Toggles. Decided to try a defender with fewer anchors.
Defender (D) Dark-Electric, Once again, this one worked, fewer anchors, same basic success. But retired eventually as well. Too slow getting thru missions. I remember taking 45min-1hour on some Faultline missions solo. My scrapper could blow thru the SAME missions at more than twice the speed.
My last two defenders were both inspired by Dr.Mike's great guide on self-defense.
I did a FF/NRG and a Sonic/Nrg and levelled em both to 22
They were not as bad as an empath for solo, actually the FF defender did halfway decent. The sonic fell flat on his [censored] against Status mobs like the Lost. But once again they both FAILED to feel even remotely Heroic solo.
Not important to you ? Fine
Dont hate, but for me, being able to solo IS Important.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
LRN2PFF.
Seriously. An FF Defender should NEVER be faceplanting all the time. You know how Kitty Pryde is going in and out of walls all the time? That's what I do with my FFers (well, before I get Repulsion Field) I'm shooting, phasing out into my protective bubble, then phasing back in and shooting some more.
You can easily cut HALF the incoming damage before you get all the attack powers you need to make a solid attack chain. Then once you have a solid attack chain, you should be past the level for Repulsion Field. It's all golden from there.
G_Tanker
I dont mind being quoted, but be careful how you paraphrase what I posted. You changed the essence of the sentence by leaving out the first clause.
This is what I actually said :
I dont doubt that a level 50 fully tricked-out Defender does fine in his own missions. Nor do I feel all Defender powersets suffer from what Ultimo is expressing, but there is a serious disconnect with CERTAIN power sets in their ability to solo, especially at lower levels.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Just out of curiosity, if Defenders are given a boost to soloing, will Scrappers have to be given a team-oriented ability to make them more desirable on teams? Will Tankers have to have their defense toggles modified to include teammates? Will blasters need more defense? Will controllers need their pets moved to a lower tier so they aren't too slow leveling in the early game?
The five archetypes and the dozens of powers within those archetypes are designed to have strengths and weaknesses. Some tankers are squishier than others. Some tankers don't handle aggro as well. At least one controller set has no pets and another has extra pets. At least one Scrapper secondary and a tanker primary sacrifices some self-defense for some extra team defense. Dual blades does more dps at the expense of burst damage. Stone tankers get wasted by psi damage.
To make all characters level equally well against all foes at all levels within teams and in solo play, you'd end up with one archetype and powerset.
I will not rest until we have in-game throwable pies!
[ QUOTE ]
G_Tanker
I dont mind being quoted, but be careful how you paraphrase what I posted. You changed the essence of the sentence by leaving out the first clause.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I was responding exactly to that, I just hate quoting walls of text. I'll illustrate if you want.
Your "Level various chars 1-20 with NO POOL POWERS, NO IO'S" suggestion would show what you're intending to show, but is silly in its limitations. Pool powers are there for a reason, IO's are part of today's game. At one point a year or two back I recall a post that practically mandated taking air sup by 8 on a soloing controller and respec'ing at the 24 tf before dual builds existed. No twinking is fine, but it's not hard to make money on low level toons, so it's another silly notion to restrict purchases - not that a sub 20s' char has much to purchase.
Your suggestion would INDEED illustrate JUST what Ultimo is complaining about and the rest of us are calling fine : Some sets and AT's are solo inclined, some are not. But all can get the job done. Or to repeat myself;
<ul type="square">[*]All Can Solo.[*]Some Do It Much Better Than Others.[*][u]The Game Is Not Balanced Solely Around Solo Play.[u][/list]
[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity, if Defenders are given a boost to soloing, will Scrappers have to be given a team-oriented ability to make them more desirable on teams?
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought that was the whole purpose to crits. Make them boss-killers. I thought giving that role to scrappers was a [censored] idea, but I'm not a dev.
Thats a very valid point Captain_Wacky
And the answer is a resounding NO ! There should be differences. Perhaps my expirament should be limited to just defenders. Because, one of my core problems with the AT is WHY should a RAD or DARK Defender be so radically better at solo than an Empath or Sonic, but yet still bring all the defender GOODNESS to a team.
I dont EXPECT to solo like a scrapper. But My EMPATHY Defender is not even CLOSE to as capable as my RAD defender at HEROIC missions.
I ask YOU, Is that Right ? or Fair ? worth making some adjustments to help that powerset solo ?
I think its worth looking at.
And question 2. If they buffed the Defender's ability to solo on these less capable soloing sets, would you object ? Or be happy that your defender brothers got some loving from the Devs ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
[ QUOTE ]
And question 2. If they buffed the Defender's ability to solo on these less capable soloing sets, would you object ? Or be happy that your defender brothers got some loving from the Devs ?
[/ QUOTE ]
After 10 years in MMO's (18 if you count MUDs etc) I'm very skeptical that any buff can possibly come without a nerf in hand, and I like the AT for what it does well right now 
[ QUOTE ]
I dont EXPECT to solo like a scrapper. But My EMPATHY Defender is not even CLOSE to as capable as my RAD defender at HEROIC missions.
[/ QUOTE ]
I also know that while some sets are just terrible solo, particularly buffing sets, they're also among the most desired on teams in lowbie play. Emp? Seriously? "HEAL0R! HEAL0R!!! HEAL0RRRR!" Everywhere I turn I see people asking for Healz0rs. And they mean empathy. Taking a powerset where most of the powers are used on teammates and trying to make it a solo powerhouse is... arrrgh 
(Heal Other, Absorb Pain, Fortitude, Clear Mind, Adrenaline Boost, Resurrect - how is soloing on a set where 6/9 powers are meant exclusively for teammates a good idea?!??! )
There's "what I want my character to be" and then there's "game balance" and the devs tend to go with the latter or we'd just have UO again with tankmages everywhere ... anyhoo, g'nite, gl, hf.
[ QUOTE ]
but there is a serious disconnect with CERTAIN power sets in their ability to solo, especially at lower levels.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, IME, the first 20 levels are not bad for a defender, if they build with an eye on soloing (not necessarily a total solo build, either). It can get a bit rough in the late teens before stamina and SOs, but most characters have that problem in that area. Most of the 20s were a joy for my FF/Nrg. It got a bit hard in the late 20s and early 30s because I needed more slots and the baddies just scale way beyond my damage.
I have switched over to set IOs now though, so I won't be able to speak much of late game experience without set bonuses.
I bet an Emp/Archery would be sweet in the early levels. I am not fond of the no pool powers thing though. I'd want Hurdle and maybe Combat Jumping. I'd go for something like below.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Emp-Arch: Level 21 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Empathy
Secondary Power Set: Archery
Power Pool: Fitness
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Healing Aura -- Heal(A), Heal(7), Heal(15)
Level 1: Snap Shot -- Acc(A), Dmg(3)
Level 2: Aimed Shot -- Acc(A), Dmg(3), Dmg(7), RechRdx(9), Dmg(21)
Level 4: Fistful of Arrows -- Acc(A), Dmg(5), Dmg(5), RechRdx(9), Dmg(17)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump(A)
Level 8: Heal Other -- Heal(A), Heal(15)
Level 10: Blazing Arrow -- Acc(A), Dmg(11), Dmg(11), RechRdx(13), Dmg(13)
Level 12: Fortitude -- RechRdx(A), DefBuff(17)
Level 14: Health -- Heal(A)
Level 16: Aim -- RechRdx(A)
Level 18: Recovery Aura -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(19), RechRdx(19)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21)
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Interesting choice of Secondary STRATO_NEXUS
Lots of early attacks to spam dmg and heal as needed.
Not knowing much about Archery set (never tried it, too busy with Willpower) do you get a secondary effect like -DEF on those shots, or any KB ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
[ QUOTE ]
It's more complicated than that. Very few critters have resistance to all damage types,
[/ QUOTE ]
But quite a few critters have 20% or more passive resistance to the damage type the critters themselves use. Which is the type that matters for damage debuff resistance.
Generally agree on your support of the Kinetics set, but I think you're underestimating the impact of damage debuff resistance in the PvE game. (Damage debuff resistance in PvP is almost assuredly broken, but hey, what isn't?)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's more complicated than that. Very few critters have resistance to all damage types,
[/ QUOTE ]
But quite a few critters have 20% or more passive resistance to the damage type the critters themselves use. Which is the type that matters for damage debuff resistance.
Generally agree on your support of the Kinetics set, but I think you're underestimating the impact of damage debuff resistance in the PvE game. (Damage debuff resistance in PvP is almost assuredly broken, but hey, what isn't?)
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, damage debuffs in general are just less effective in PvP. Most players are running around with a 90% damage buff in all of their powers from enhancements alone. They do get higher values in PvP, but they'd need to be in and around triple their PvE values to be effective.
Anyways, damage debuffs tend to come in large numbers, and they're very effective since most enemies aren't getting damage buffs. A 20% damage debuff takes off 20% of an enemy's damage more often than not. Unless enemies are touting AV-level resistance, they're very good mitigation.
[ QUOTE ]
*rolls eyes*
I note that this clip is of a L50 character. I also not that this character makes extensive use of veteran powers. I note that I've said repeatedly that Defenders become more balanced late. I note that I've said before that not everyone has access to veteran powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I THOUGHT it would make any difference at all to you, I'd exemplar down to level 12 and do the exact same thing with no Vet powers. And I can do it, easily, believe me. But I don't think it'll change your mind one bit, it's already set in stone.
[ QUOTE ]
Force Fields cannot increase the Defender's mitigation.
[/ QUOTE ]
I now know that you officially have no idea what you're talking about. Have fun in that fantasy world of yours, good day.