[ QUOTE ]
But what do I know? Maybe some people don't like switching targets during a fight?
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know if this is the case with Ultimo, but it is something I have seen in game a lot.
There are people who go after the held mob, rather than the identical one that is still an active threat. Controllers who in a duo, hold hold hold one to defeat whilst not mitigating the rest of the spawn.
For a FF/NRG solo my approach would be:
Detain #1.
Force bolt the 2nd, repeat if they get up and #3 is not defeated.
Attack the 3rd with the your 3 single target blasts.
in a Lt/minion combo. Detain the minion and knock the LT all over the place. They shouldn't get more than the odd atacck off at you.
(which is why tough/weave is not needed solo. Through active mitigation very few attacks should be coming at you, so its basically eating away at the end bar for little benefit. )
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Admittedly, I had already hit level 50 before the Siphon Speed changes kicked in. Before that, Siphon Speed was basically a debt-magnet travel power.
[ QUOTE ]
Slotting Siphon Power with a single Recharge Reduction training enhancement and using Siphon Speed gets the recharge time of Siphon Power down to just above 15s. So by level 6, one can have the -Damage applied to two foes within 15s. That leaves only two of your theoretical four enemies at full damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
And you still have made a difference of only 12%! Do defenders get only 12% fewer hitpoints than scrappers? Of course not. I'm not claiming Defenders should have the same hitpoints as scrappers; I'm just saying that the siphon power debuff doesn't equalize things.
[Skipping lots of stuff regarding siphon speed. Sure I use it now, but it just wasn't an option before issue whatever.]
[ QUOTE ]
Combat is not a static event, and Kinetics is not a static powerset. Any Kin defender can maintain multiple -Dam (and -Recharge/RunSpeed) debuffs on multiple targets and survive that first 8-15s of combat without any trouble, unless they're scrapperlocking.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can't survive the first 15s of combat solo in many situations: any of a number of EBs will crank you in that time; any mezzers will mezz you in that time; depending on level and foe, 4 +1 minions can bump you off in that time. These aren't the majority, but they constitute a significant minority.
[ QUOTE ]
You can attack 5 times in 10s with no Recharge Reduction enhancements or global recharge boosts (including SSpeed).
[analysis omitted]
[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking of real life play, not an optimized attack chain. Unless your foes are locked down somehow, or you are on a team, you don't get to spam fast attacks in a row - it's asking for a trip to the hospital. As you say, Kinetics is a dynamic set. And damage mitigation is found in attacks like TK and WD, not the fast low level attacks.
And please, spare the personal barbs. Have you compared solo kin play with solo scrapper play? Are you really saying that they are comparable experiences? I'm not even saying here that they should be; I'm just amazed that you won't acknowledge this.
Guys it really shouldn't matter what support primary you take, if the damage is way too low on every blast set that isn't Sonic Blast then the base damage needs to be increased. By the way saying Defender damage is fine as is, is saying Ice Melee for tankers is fine as is since both are 20% less than what other tanker melee sets do.
[ QUOTE ]
Guys it really shouldn't matter what support primary you take, if the damage is way too low on every blast set that isn't Sonic Blast...
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's clear there's not a consensus on that matter.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting choice of Secondary STRATO_NEXUS
Lots of early attacks to spam dmg and heal as needed.
Not knowing much about Archery set (never tried it, too busy with Willpower) do you get a secondary effect like -DEF on those shots, or any KB ?
[/ QUOTE ]
I did indeed choose it because Blazing Arrow comes early. My FF/Nrg that I leveled mostly solo had Power Burst early as well. I do figure the control of Energy Blast in combination with the tier three early helped me a lot.
Low level Archery has no secondary effect on the enemies (Explosive Arrow gets a 50% chance of KB, but that is not until lvl 20). It does however get increased Accuracy, which is very useful in the low levels (but fades in usefulness after SOs/IOs).
Edit:
I ended up making a character to run primarily solo, Emp/Ice. I will not be building solely for solo, but I will be running primarily solo. I couldn't do Archery, because I am planning on a Traps/Archery and did not want to wear out Archery for myself.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Emp-Ice: Level 21 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Empathy
Secondary Power Set: Ice Blast
Power Pool: Fitness
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Healing Aura -- Heal(A), Heal(7), Heal(11), RechRdx(15)
Level 1: Ice Bolt -- Acc(A), Dmg(3), Dmg(11)
Level 2: Ice Blast -- Acc(A), Dmg(3), Dmg(7), RechRdx(9), Dmg(13)
Level 4: Frost Breath -- Acc(A), Dmg(5), Dmg(5), RechRdx(9), Dmg(17)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump(A)
Level 8: Heal Other -- Heal(A), Heal(15)
Level 10: Clear Mind -- EndRdx(A)
Level 12: Fortitude -- RechRdx(A), DefBuff(13)
Level 14: Health -- Heal(A)
Level 16: Freeze Ray -- Acc(A), Acc(17)
Level 18: Recovery Aura -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(19), RechRdx(19)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
[ QUOTE ]
Guys it really shouldn't matter what support primary you take, if the damage is way too low on every blast set that isn't Sonic Blast then the base damage needs to be increased. By the way saying Defender damage is fine as is, is saying Ice Melee for tankers is fine as is since both are 20% less than what other tanker melee sets do.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're wrong.
The devs' definition of "fine" has traditionally been "able to solo on Heroic." I've never, ever seen a defender with something other than a LoLBuild who couldn't. Everything else is, if you're a dev, either gravy or thematic.
The players' definition of "fine," however, is often RADICALLY different and amounts to, frequently, "solo individual spawns set for 6 on Unyielding in less than 60 (sometimes 30) seconds."
But this definition of some players is out of whack and leads both to Monty Hall and an escalating arms war between ATs. If Blasters bring little to the plate beyond secondary effects (if that) and damage, why should defenders bring similar damage, generally superior secondary effects, and a complete (de)buff primary whose purpose is to make the game easier for entire teams?
Answer? Blasters should do more damage.
Response: But wait, if blasters do so much more damage than scrappers, but scrappers have to be in melee, how are scrappers going to get teams? It's a freakin' MMO! We need moar damage!
Then tankers.
Then controllers.
Sometimes, balance is arbitrary, but that's not a bad thing.
FWIW, if I specifically want to team, I'll bring a defender. If I want to solo at great speed, I'll grab my scrapper or dom. That's just the way the game is. And, for it to be anything else, we'd have embland the game to the point where everyone does the same DPS ... only with (to paraphrase Arcanvaille poorly) different kinds of spackle.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting choice of Secondary STRATO_NEXUS
Lots of early attacks to spam dmg and heal as needed.
Not knowing much about Archery set (never tried it, too busy with Willpower) do you get a secondary effect like -DEF on those shots, or any KB ?
[/ QUOTE ]
I did indeed choose it because Blazing Arrow comes early. My FF/Nrg that I leveled mostly solo had Power Burst early as well. I do figure the control of Energy Blast in combination with the tier three early helped me a lot.
Low level Archery has no secondary effect on the enemies (Explosive Arrow gets a 50% chance of KB, but that is not until lvl 20). It does however get increased Accuracy, which is very useful in the low levels (but fades in usefulness after SOs/IOs).
[/ QUOTE ]
I decided to give your planned EMP/ARCH a try last night to get a "Feel" for what you were aiming for ( :/ sorry for the pun). I made it to 12th fairly easily with the main issues being Lost mezzers (which are pain for any AT at those levels) . This build reminded me alot of how low level blasters survive. Steady stream of dmg to down mobs as fast as possible while maintaining optimum position.
I will try some more things out. Thanks STRATO for your input. Seems that I may have overlooked one factor in my defender builds of the past. And that is this; I have always avoided building Hasten into my builds, cause I am not sold on EVERY toon taking Fitness and Speed. And I have always used basic recharge to tighten up attack chains. However, I think with a Defender (especially at lower levels), Getting a REALLY steady stream of attacks as fast as possible COULD improve the road to 22 alot. I usually try and work in 3 ST and 1 special on all my toons before 20, but I dont worry so much about how tight the attack chain is, just whether it feels right. Gonna have to play with numbers more I think.
Any Ideas out there on Energy Blast attack chains PRE-SO ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys it really shouldn't matter what support primary you take, if the damage is way too low on every blast set that isn't Sonic Blast...
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's clear there's not a consensus on that matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, Thats the impression I have gotten after 4+ years.
Personally, global changes like more DMG, more HPs or a better Inherent would be nice ( I certainly would not complain), however I dont think they are going to solve the real Defender balance issues.
What I have always advocated (and been shouted down for) is to let ALL defenders defend themselves as well as their team. I dont mean EVERY power needs to be fixed, but targeted changes to CERTAIN powers in CERTAIN powersets, will help low level (and High End) Defenders considerably.
And they will not break the game.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, global changes like more DMG, more HPs or a better Inherent would be nice ( I certainly would not complain), however I dont think they are going to solve the real Defender balance issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to riff on this:
Defenders as a group don't seem to have any real problems. Certain defender sets, however, probably do.
I think I said it many, many pages ago, but the devs have /never/ done a balance pass on (de)buff sets, and they probably should since they've done so on direct damage, controls, damage mitigation (i.e., tanker primaries), and entire ATs (blaster, stalkers, and doms).
[ QUOTE ]
the devs have /never/ done a balance pass on (de)buff sets
[/ QUOTE ]
This is probably a good thing. There's a lot of pent up dev hate for buffs and debuffs, and plenty of tools, such as lonnnng unenhanceable recharges and unstackability, to express that hate.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, global changes like more DMG, more HPs or a better Inherent would be nice ( I certainly would not complain), however I dont think they are going to solve the real Defender balance issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to riff on this:
Defenders as a group don't seem to have any real problems. Certain defender sets, however, probably do.
I think I said it many, many pages ago, but the devs have /never/ done a balance pass on (de)buff sets, and they probably should since they've done so on direct damage, controls, damage mitigation (i.e., tanker primaries), and entire ATs (blaster, stalkers, and doms).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I would pretty much lose faith in the AT if they went thru the powersets and instead of boosting sets like Empathy, we got Rad, Dark, Storm, etc... NERFED so they too could solo poorly. ::::Shivverrr:::
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I would pretty much lose faith in the AT if they went thru the powersets and instead of boosting sets like Empathy, we got Rad, Dark, Storm, etc... NERFED so they too could solo poorly. ::::Shivverrr:::
[/ QUOTE ]
It would be more likely that soloability would increase, while team play might be curtailed some.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys it really shouldn't matter what support primary you take, if the damage is way too low on every blast set that isn't Sonic Blast...
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's clear there's not a consensus on that matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, Thats the impression I have gotten after 4+ years.
Personally, global changes like more DMG, more HPs or a better Inherent would be nice ( I certainly would not complain), however I dont think they are going to solve the real Defender balance issues.
What I have always advocated (and been shouted down for) is to let ALL defenders defend themselves as well as their team. I dont mean EVERY power needs to be fixed, but targeted changes to CERTAIN powers in CERTAIN powersets, will help low level (and High End) Defenders considerably.
And they will not break the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is what I've been saying all along, too.
And of course, been shouted down too.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys it really shouldn't matter what support primary you take, if the damage is way too low on every blast set that isn't Sonic Blast...
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's clear there's not a consensus on that matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, Thats the impression I have gotten after 4+ years.
Personally, global changes like more DMG, more HPs or a better Inherent would be nice ( I certainly would not complain), however I dont think they are going to solve the real Defender balance issues.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
orly? and what, pre-tell, are those?
[ QUOTE ]
What I have always advocated (and been shouted down for) is to let ALL defenders defend themselves as well as their team. I dont mean EVERY power needs to be fixed, but targeted changes to CERTAIN powers in CERTAIN powersets, will help low level (and High End) Defenders considerably.
And they will not break the game./quote]
care to be alittle more specific on which CERTAIN powers would be changed? because at the moment im having a bit of trouble trying to think of any that, if changed, wouldnt break the game and still help low levels.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Slotting Siphon Power with a single Recharge Reduction training enhancement and using Siphon Speed gets the recharge time of Siphon Power down to just above 15s. So by level 6, one can have the -Damage applied to two foes within 15s. That leaves only two of your theoretical four enemies at full damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
And you still have made a difference of only 12%!
[/ QUOTE ]
And you're still only level 6! Minions are defeated by sneezes at level 6!
[ QUOTE ]
Do defenders get only 12% fewer hitpoints than scrappers? Of course not.
[/ QUOTE ]
There isn't much difference in HP at level 6.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not claiming Defenders should have the same hitpoints as scrappers; I'm just saying that the siphon power debuff doesn't equalize things.
[/ QUOTE ]
But you're not equalizing the playing field with SP alone. You've also got SSpeed's -Recharge and -RunSpeed, Transfusion's heal, potentially Repel and the secondary effects of your blasts as well as the status effects in the blast set, and this is still only level 6. More damage mitigatory tools become available as the defender levels up, more slots and better enhancements become available, the powers improve, etc.
No AT, no powerset, is defined by a single power. No defender with an ounce of sense relies on a single power to mitigate damage. The ATs and powersets exist as they do to provide every player, regardless of which AT or powersets they choose, with the necessary tools for survival and progression.
Your narrow outlook on Kinetics based on your experience four years ago isn't relevant, or even correct, today.
[ QUOTE ]
[Skipping lots of stuff regarding siphon speed. Sure I use it now, but it just wasn't an option before issue whatever.]
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, how a defender plays today is not related, in any way, to how you played your defender before I4.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Combat is not a static event, and Kinetics is not a static powerset. Any Kin defender can maintain multiple -Dam (and -Recharge/RunSpeed) debuffs on multiple targets and survive that first 8-15s of combat without any trouble, unless they're scrapperlocking.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can't survive the first 15s of combat solo in many situations: any of a number of EBs will crank you in that time;
[/ QUOTE ]
I survive the first 8-15s against AVs and GMs with my Kinetics scrapper.
So who, exactly, do you believe can't?
[ QUOTE ]
any mezzers will mezz you in that time;
[/ QUOTE ]
Break Free. Mez the mezzer first. Repel them. Use a Luck or two. Play tactically, pulling enemies until you can approach the mezzer safely. Options abound.
[ QUOTE ]
depending on level and foe, 4 +1 minions can bump you off in that time.
[/ QUOTE ]
I got stuck with a spawn of eight +1 Clockwork with my TA/A pre-I7, right in the middle of a mission, and I defeated the entire spawn without being defeated myself. No Flash Arrow, no PGA, not even Ice Arrow, just Glue and Entangling, and diddly squat from my blast set to help ensure my safety. Surely a Kin can manage a spawn half that size.
[ QUOTE ]
These aren't the majority, but they constitute a significant minority.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, they really aren't. EBs aren't common enough to be considered a significant minority, you do have options to prevent being mezzed or shrug it off, and unless you're playing at the second or fourth difficulty setting, you aren't going to be fighting spawns of four or more +1 minions (that was changed a loooooooooong time ago). The only applicable argument is the mezzer statement, and that's a fact of life for every defender, not just Kins. You deal with it or you die, it's that simple.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can attack 5 times in 10s with no Recharge Reduction enhancements or global recharge boosts (including SSpeed).
[analysis omitted]
[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking of real life play, not an optimized attack chain. Unless your foes are locked down somehow, or you are on a team, you don't get to spam fast attacks in a row - it's asking for a trip to the hospital.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what is it you think real players are doing for those 10s? /e dance while waiting for the debuffs to recharge?
You can attack 5 times in 10s. You've already used your debuffs at the beginning of combat, so you really have no reason at all not to attack. If you aren't using your attacks as frequently as possible and interspersing them with debuffs, that is asking for a hospital trip.
That's real life play.
[ QUOTE ]
As you say, Kinetics is a dynamic set. And damage mitigation is found in attacks like TK and WD, not the fast low level attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mental Blast - 37.5% -Recharge, 36.1 base damage
Subdue - mag 3 Immobilize, 47.7 base damage
Psychic Scream - 62.5% -Recharge, 37.6 base damage
Damage (defeated foes deal 0 damage), enough -Recharge to floor attack speed, an Immobilize which prevents foes from closing to melee range (and thereby restricts them to using only ranged attacks, which, again, typically deal less damage than melee attacks), I'm seeing quite a bit of mitigation in the low level attacks.
If you really want to make an argument like that, pick a secondary which offers little or no mitigation. Psy isn't it.
[ QUOTE ]
And please, spare the personal barbs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course it has to be personal, because pointing out the flaws in your approach, analysis and, well, everything you've said couldn't possibly be an objective observation. Nope. If it reflects poorly on you, it must be personal, because you're a flawless Kin player and an unparalleled debater and master of game mechanics/numbers.
Right?
Right?
[ QUOTE ]
Have you compared solo kin play with solo scrapper play? Are you really saying that they are comparable experiences?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not a comparison I choose to make because there is no performance metric applicable to both of them, beyond "Mission X, *.* minutes, go", and that's really not a good metric because it ignores every other variable, things like total damage taken, number of inspirations used, number of times defeated, levels of the characters, levels of the foes, whether any of the foes spawned at higher levels for one character and not the other, tiers of foes spawned for each character, etc.
I have soloed a Kin to 50. I have soloed a scrapper to the mid 20s. They are wildly different play styles despite my personal choice to limit my Kin to pool melee attacks. But I also did take that Kin up against Terra and walk away a winner, undefeated. And I did take that Kin up against Adamastor and call it a draw after ten minutes of trading punches. So I know the survivability is there, comparable to what a scrapper experiences.
The damage output is where you find it, or how you make it. I don't expect an average defender build to solo as quickly as an average scrapper build, but I do expect a carefully planned, well slotted defender build to outperform an average scrapper build, and my experience playing defenders bears out that expectation quite well. Similarly, I don't expect any, except perhaps for a rare few, defender builds to match the performance of a carefully planned, well slotted "min/max" scrapper build, because that's just not realistic. But even then, a good defender can do extremely well in comparison to a good scrapper. I have also seen that with my own eyes.
It wasn't even two weeks ago that an in-game friend remarked, "I thought you were supposed to be a defender. You're killing stuff faster than me!". A few months ago, I was teamed with another in-game friend, again when I was playing a defender, and he got pasted. I cleaned up the spawn while he lie on the ground and commented about how impressive a good defender could be... and this was a Rad/Energy defender, NOT an optimal combination!
So I don't waste my time comparing defender damage or survivability to that of other ATs, because there is no valid comparison that can be made. All defenders are capable of soloing safely and reasonably quickly, if the player chooses to use the tools available to him/her. Whether they solo as "well" as scrappers is a pointless, meaningless distinction. Only a scrapper solos as "well" as a scrapper. Or as poorly, in some cases.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not even saying here that they should be; I'm just amazed that you won't acknowledge this.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's nothing to acknowledge. Comparing defenders to scrappers is akin to comparing pineapples to potatoes.
[ QUOTE ]
Snipped post concluding a Scrapper =/= a Defender.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. Go figure. That totally wasn't a foregone conclusion for any of us. Thanks for the usefull intell.
/sarcasm_off
Basically: Lol if you are serious.
PC_Guy
I have offered specific suggestions in the past. And was met with the same disdain and resistance from the Community.
If you really want to be constructive, I could offer them again, but I am not confident that it would result in anything different THIS time.
But if you search this thread you will see that MANY veterans Admit that some primary powersets are rather poor at soloing.
Even YOU can name them.
The question is NOT whether they should solo like gods, but whether they should solo BETTER than they currently can ?
My answer is absolutely YES.
If your answer is the opposite then you and I will just have to disagree. No hard feelings for me.
But dont think I am gonna post my ideas AGAIN just to be made fun of and called a newb.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
[ QUOTE ]
The question is NOT whether they should solo like gods, but whether they should solo BETTER than they currently can ?
My answer is absolutely YES.
If your answer is the opposite then you and will just have to disagree. No hard feelings for me.
But dont think I am gonna post my ideas AGAIN just to be made fun of and called a newb.
[/ QUOTE ]
The real question that most people that disagree with changes as a whole to the AT/game structure ask in response (and are never actually addressed simply because the question renders your point largely moot) is whether the changes that would make some of the defender primaries (strangely enough, those that excel at teaming) more effective at soloing would imbalance everything else within the complex workings of the game.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The question is NOT whether they should solo like gods, but whether they should solo BETTER than they currently can ?
My answer is absolutely YES.
If your answer is the opposite then you and will just have to disagree. No hard feelings for me.
But dont think I am gonna post my ideas AGAIN just to be made fun of and called a newb.
[/ QUOTE ]
The real question that most people that disagree with changes as a whole to the AT/game structure ask in response (and are never actually addressed simply because the question renders your point largely moot) is whether the changes that would make some of the defender primaries (strangely enough, those that excel at teaming) more effective at soloing would imbalance everything else within the complex workings of the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your point Umbral regarding whether a change could unbalance a powerset. This is a real concern. One that I am sure game Developers consider at great length before they make changes.
I am not sure why you think it makes my point moot though.
Unless you are assuming (Like many objectors DO) that ANY change WOULD make the set overpowered.
That notion to me is fatalistic at best. I personally am confident in both the DEVS abilities and my own judgement that it is not only possible, but would not unbalance anything.
As an example: If it were unbalanced for say, a FF defender to be able to buff himself for solo play with Deflection, Insulation AND Dispersion. WHY then is it somehow balanced that he can do JUST THAT to 7 other people in a team.
You might say, well he could then also add pools to make this somehow CRAZY unfair. But what about that INV tank that just got these buffs ON TOP of his AT defenses AND perhaps Pools that he took.
Its very hard to convince me that 7 other people can enjoy HUGE rewards that I provide, but cannot also provide to myself. And Further that changing that will somehow totally unbalance the set.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure why you think it makes my point moot though.
[/ QUOTE ]Because it's one of the many ways in which you indicate you have no idea what you're talking about.
For there to be a spectrum of team-agnostic options (scrappers), there should in turn be a related alternative, heavily team-reliant options. Someone has to be the worst at soloing - and since they can still solo at all, your mantra that they 'should' solo faster is built on an entirely emotive non-argument. You demand an imperative and don't justify it.
[ QUOTE ]
As an example: If it were unbalanced for say, a FF defender to be able to buff himself for solo play with Deflection, Insulation AND Dispersion. WHY then is it somehow balanced that he can do JUST THAT to 7 other people in a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Simple: it's balanced by the fact that you're doing it to other people. Personal buffs in CoX are universally weaker than AoE buffs, which are universally weaker than ST granted buffs. It's part of the game design. If any character were suddenly allowed to target themselves with their ST granted buffs, there wouldn't be a point to grouping. It's a mechanic put in place to encourage group play. If you're playing support, you're better at supporting others than you are at supporting yourself.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure why you think it makes my point moot though.
[/ QUOTE ]Because it's one of the many ways in which you indicate you have no idea what you're talking about.
For there to be a spectrum of team-agnostic options (scrappers), there should in turn be a related alternative, heavily team-reliant options. Someone has to be the worst at soloing - and since they can still solo at all, your mantra that they 'should' solo faster is built on an entirely emotive non-argument. You demand an imperative and don't justify it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Talen_Lee
I want to keep this friendly, but as expected, someone ALWAYS has to start the poking jibes.
You dont know me, or my gaming experience, so dont insult me if you are able to prove a valid point.
Just as you point to your opinion as the REASON for the way it is. I HAVE MY reason for what I believe. It is NOT necessary to say a Non-group activity spawns a certain AT or a group Activity spawns yet another AT. Fact is (and proven OVER and OVER in these games) some sets (ATs, classes, etc...) will solo better and some will team better. BUT there has NEVER been an MMO that I have played where TEAMING is NOT a preferrable way to play. In fact in EVERY game, TEAMING is the ONLY way to get some of the best rewards and therefore is going to happen regardless of solo ability or attitude (That you seem to be suggesting).
There is NO HARM in everyone soloing decently (Albeit at different capabilties) because TEAMING will ALWAYS be BETTER. Force multipliers, Tactics, game design, whatever the labels you care to use.
So I REJECT your notion of SOLO (team-agnostic) or SUPPORT (Team-reliant) and say that it is simply a fact of Game genesis. I purport that these levels CAN and often DO get adjusted to create more even and enjoyable gameplay across all spectrums.
Insult me if you wish, but you assume too much. Or maybe you enjoy the 'Mask' that the internet provides and allows you to lash out with impunity
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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BUT there has NEVER been an MMO that I have played where TEAMING is NOT a preferrable way to play.
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World of Warcraft.
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As an example: If it were unbalanced for say, a FF defender to be able to buff himself for solo play with Deflection, Insulation AND Dispersion. WHY then is it somehow balanced that he can do JUST THAT to 7 other people in a team.
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Simple: it's balanced by the fact that you're doing it to other people. Personal buffs in CoX are universally weaker than AoE buffs, which are universally weaker than ST granted buffs. It's part of the game design. If any character were suddenly allowed to target themselves with their ST granted buffs, there wouldn't be a point to grouping. It's a mechanic put in place to encourage group play. If you're playing support, you're better at supporting others than you are at supporting yourself.
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Umbral, I have heard this argument many times.
I guess if its the way they want the game to be, who am I to say otherwise.
But I disagree with one statement, and thats the need to encourage group play. Every game (MMO) that I have participated in, has not needed to do anything to encourage group play except provide rewards that can ONLY be gotten by a group. Its actually quite simple.
And even if they didnt. One group can accomplish anything FASTER and more EASILY than any single solo character.
Its just been my experience that sometimes you cannot get a decent group. Sometimes you dont have the free time to start a group. and even times when you dont really feel like grouping.
What happens then ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
You know ...
I take it back; I don't think Ultimo_'s trolling.
But I do think he's goofy. I've never, ever been unable to solo the lower levels on my defenders on Heroic. It's not fast, but it's certainly doable.
FF in particular I found reasonably straight-forward -- I figured out early on that a well-used Force Bolt can be used to juggle 2 out of the 3 mobs in a given heroic spawn, and the third mob can be detained or punched in the face. Repeatedly.
And ... I also found FF to be /quite/ good at dealing with bosses since few lowbie bosses resist KB. Force Bolt > blast > blast > wait for boss to start getting up > Force Bolt > blast > blast.
But what do I know? Maybe some people don't like switching targets during a fight?