[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...
[/ QUOTE ]
But they can defend the heck out of everyone else.
Maybe someday they will create a new archetype: Self Defender. 
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean the Defender AT is specific in who it's defending?
Hmm... if a tree falls alone in the forest, does it make a sound?
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...
[/ QUOTE ]
Ultimo, I applaud your efforts to enlighten and/or encourage real change to the Defender AT. I have come here with the same questions and ideas as well. But the fact is, there are alot of Hard-core, Long-time defenders that do not see anything wrong with their AT. For me its sad, because I came to this game shortly after launch and rolled my first shiny new Hero as a Forcefield Defender, only to find that his best stuff could only be put on teammates.
After all this time, I still believe that Defenders NEED improvement. Heck they used to share the same level of solo frustration as pre-pet controllers, but Look at them controllers now !! They got a decent Inherent and VOILA, they actually feel Heroic solo (WITHOUT PETS).
I hope one day the devs realize that they only need to do a small change and Defenders will join the ranks of real Heroes (ONES that SOLO WELL and bring Awesomeness to teams), but until then, you should think about the movie SKY HIGH and realize that some people take being Sidekicks VERY seriously 
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
[ QUOTE ]
I have to add my two bits.
I play a kin/psy defender - first character to 50 - and a claws/regen scrapper, also at 50.
Because of timezone issues, when I get to play CoH, it's usually hard even to find a PuG, let alone a good team, so both characters have played a lot of solo content.
The defender had a real struggle. Before difficulty levels were introduced, there were multiple missions where I had to beg for assistance, because they were simply impossible, even with inspirations.
[/ QUOTE ]
That wasn't the experience I had, and I was playing a Kin without using the blasts, relying on Flurry and Air Superiority instead. I soloed Terra and fought Adamastor to a standstill, with Kinetics, AS and Flurry.
[ QUOTE ]
Kinetics before fulcrum shift doesn't have a good self-buff (the time spent using Siphon Power is better used just hitting the opponent again; the debuff is insufficient,
[/ QUOTE ]
25%, stacking, isn't sufficient? Getting it up to 75-90% (10% being the floor) isn't enough?
Last time I checked, defenders did have more than 1 HP, so they shouldn't need complete damage immunity, which is the next step after 90% -Damage.
[ QUOTE ]
is resisted by damage resistance,
[/ QUOTE ]
It's more complicated than that. Very few critters have resistance to all damage types, and resisting damage resistance is only applicable for the specific types resisted. If a critter resists Lethal damage, then it will also resist a damage debuff, but only the Lethal portion, and if that same critter uses a Smashing attack, the full debuff is applied. And as often as not, a critter with resistance to one damage type will be using a different damage type.
Furthermore, the reality of resistance is that it's usually very small amounts, especially in the lower levels. So I'm going to say "big freaking deal" if a critter has 10% Resistance to Lethal and also uses Lethal damage attacks. So it's resisting that 25% -Damage by 10%, making it 22.5% -Damage instead. Worlds aren't going to end, and a character isn't going to keel over, because of a piddling 2.5% difference.
[ QUOTE ]
and doesn't last long,
[/ QUOTE ]
30s isn't long enough? The recharge time is only 20s...
[ QUOTE ]
while the buff is not large enough for long enough to make a significant difference solo.)
[/ QUOTE ]
25%, stacking, which means it can be stacked up to 75-100%, isn't enough? With SOs, that puts you just ~105% under the defender damage cap... and it's not enough?
[ QUOTE ]
Even after Fulcrum Shift, the damage debuff is not sufficient to significantly help solo survivability.
[/ QUOTE ]
It stacks with Siphon Power.
[ QUOTE ]
In fact, what makes kinetics at all survivable at low to mid levels is Transfusion.
[/ QUOTE ]
Transfusion helps, but it really is not the sole gem in Kinetics at lower levels. Layered mitigation is much, much stronger than relying on a single form of mitigation, and Kinetics offers good layered mitigation through multiple stacking damage debuffs and a decent heal.
[ QUOTE ]
Playing the two were like night and day. It shouldn't be the case that Defenders, having a more interesting gameplay, should be so much less effective solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't the case. It never was. You chose not to utilize your powers effectively. That doesn't indicate a problem with the AT, with Kinetics or with Psychic Blast. Or, for that matter, whether or not defenders are "as good" at soloing as scrappers.
[ QUOTE ]
That wasn't the experience I had, and I was playing a Kin without using the blasts, relying on Flurry and Air Superiority instead. I soloed Terra and fought Adamastor to a standstill, with Kinetics, AS and Flurry.
[...]
25%, stacking, isn't sufficient? Getting it up to 75-90% (10% being the floor) isn't enough?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's of course 25% (or less) on one target. One on one, if the opponent does not have a strong resist to its damage type, the siphon power debuff is effective. For a spawn of 3 to 5, it simply doesn't make much difference. With four opponents, for example, one application reduces incoming damage by a whopping 6%.
Indeed one-on-one, kinetics is fine, no real problems. (Melee range mezzes versus transfusion's radius though is a particularly delicate balance.)
[ QUOTE ]
And as often as not, a critter with resistance to one damage type will be using a different damage type.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm really not sure this is true. I often noticed that for example, bosses with a Smashing or Lethal attack also often had a significant Smashing and Lethal defense.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and doesn't last long,
[/ QUOTE ]
30s isn't long enough? The recharge time is only 20s...
[/ QUOTE ]
No, not really. In 30s, might get off five or six attacks (before global recharge bonuses from IOs start helping at high levels.) With a 25% damage boost, that's equivalent to six to eight attacks. By doing something else other than siphon power, the difference is at best one extra attack. Attacking early with a damage attack mitigates damage faster (foes reduce in number more quickly) and allows side effects to help mitigate damage too (eg TK knockback or WD sleep.)
Honestly, give it a try. If you have 3 or more opponents soloing with kinetics, I find Siphon Power not really worth the effort, unless I get to use APP powers like Dominate or Mass Hyp. to avoid the aggro.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing the two were like night and day. It shouldn't be the case that Defenders, having a more interesting gameplay, should be so much less effective solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't the case. It never was. You chose not to utilize your powers effectively. That doesn't indicate a problem with the AT, with Kinetics or with Psychic Blast. Or, for that matter, whether or not defenders are "as good" at soloing as scrappers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it is entirely unfair to state that my experience is due to "not using my powers effectively". Don't think I haven't tried a variety of play styles to make my defender a better soloer. Have you compared solo kin defending with scrapping? I'd be amazed if you found the former in any way comparable with the latter in terms of speed or survivability.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...
[/ QUOTE ]
But they can defend the heck out of everyone else.
Maybe someday they will create a new archetype: Self Defender.
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean the Defender AT is specific in who it's defending?
Hmm... if a tree falls alone in the forest, does it make a sound?
[/ QUOTE ]
The funny thing is that my Sonic/Sonic defender doesn't feel particularly squishy when he solos. His damage doesn't feel subpar. He isn't even designed specifially to solo. Isn't that weird?
I will not rest until we have in-game throwable pies!
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...
[/ QUOTE ]
Says the guy playing a toon that has access to personal force fields?
Defenders are fine. Vigilance sucks, and should be removed, and Corruptors/Trollers need their static/pet debuffs nerfed appropriately, but defenders are fine.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...
[/ QUOTE ]
But they can defend the heck out of everyone else.
Maybe someday they will create a new archetype: Self Defender.
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean the Defender AT is specific in who it's defending?
Hmm... if a tree falls alone in the forest, does it make a sound?
[/ QUOTE ]
The funny thing is that my Sonic/Sonic defender doesn't feel particularly squishy when he solos. His damage doesn't feel subpar. He isn't even designed specifially to solo. Isn't that weird?
[/ QUOTE ]
After returning to my Kin/Rad on Liberty after probably a year or so of not really playing her, I've found my soloing with her fairly easily. She's level 28.
On the other hand, my level 33 Rad/Kin Corruptor on Virtue seems to have some issues. Not sure why this is. Might of been I had a skill increase since the last time I played her, but they are built the same.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...
[/ QUOTE ]
Says the guy playing a toon that has access to personal force fields?
Defenders are fine. Vigilance sucks, and should be removed, and Corruptors/Trollers need their static/pet debuffs nerfed appropriately, but defenders are fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooh, because you know how much more easily you can defeat a foe while you're in your PFF.
Don't get me wrong, PFF is a brilliant tool. It's just too bad that it's almost required for almost every single spawn (if only to sit back and let your endurance recover).
I've said it before.
The problems with Defenders are pretty easy to spot.
Debuffing characters do fairly well, as the effects of their debuffs benefit EVERYONE, including themselves.
Buffing characters do fairly poorly, as the effects of their buffs benefit everyone EXCEPT themselves (largely - the degree depends somewhat on the particular set).
Defenders do less damage than others. That means they are attacking longer to defeat a foe. However, they use the same endurance, meaning they can't sustain attacking longer. Further, since their personal defenses are so low, and their health is also so low, they can't survive the time it takes to defeat foes.
For example, last night I fought a yellow conn Sky Raider Captain. Defeating him required my ENTIRE endurance bar. I was then forced to PFF and wait for my endurance to recover before I could fight the Wing Raider that was with him. This is with triple slotted Stamina and EndRedx in all powers.
Personally, I don't think a boost to damage is the answer. I would do two things.
First, I would change the AT's inherent to something that helps the endurance issue, at the VERY least to make endurance cost in keeping with the damage done. This will allow the Defender to take the time necessary to defeat his foes.
Second, I would modify the way the buffs work so that the Defender can buff himself. This one is hard, because you have to be careful not to seriously change how the Defender performs on teams.
This thread is a bit bizarre. You posted about defender vs scrapper solo performance, your error was pointed out to you, and you're still on about it.
Soloing anything in this game is for the bored, masochistic, or people who don't know how the game works at all. It's not just that soloing is not the best test of a defender, it's that it's wildly irrelevant.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
[ QUOTE ]
Ooh, because you know how much more easily you can defeat a foe while you're in your PFF.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what Repulsion Field is for. It's an FFer's best defense WHILE fighting. I turn it on and NEVER turn it off.
[ QUOTE ]
This thread is a bit bizarre. You posted about defender vs scrapper solo performance, your error was pointed out to you, and you're still on about it.
Soloing anything in this game is for the bored, masochistic, or people who don't know how the game works at all. It's not just that soloing is not the best test of a defender, it's that it's wildly irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's your opinion. Doesn't make it a fact. The fact is that every character needs to be able to solo. That means they need to be able to do enough damage to overcome the threat, while surviving long enough to do it. Since all characters face the same challenges, they all need to have the same general ability.
Tankers do less damage than other classes, but they have the defenses to survive long enough to do the damage they need to do. Blasters have no real defenses, but do sufficient damage that they can still oversome the same threats as the Tanker.
The same basic thing applies to all the ATs, with the exception of the Defender. Defenders don't do very much damage, but they also lack the personal defenses to allow them to take the time necessary to overcome the same threats as everyone else can (again, as I've said elsewhere, this is not as big an issue for debuffers as it is for buffers). This is compounded by the endurance disparity (which Tankers also suffer from) that has them using as much endurance as other characters, with far less benefit.
[ QUOTE ]
The fact is that every character needs to be able to solo. That means they need to be able to do enough damage to overcome the threat, while surviving long enough to do it.
[/ QUOTE ]
True.
[ QUOTE ]
Since all characters face the same challenges, they all need to have the same general ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
False. All characters are not meant to and aren't DESIGNED to "face the same challenges". If you don't understand that by now, then you've been playing a different game than the rest of us.
Just as in real life, people here come in all shapes and sizes, and some can do things that others can't. There is nothing wrong with that.
That's like saying that we should give all short people stilts or cut out a part of all tall people's legs, that way they're equal. That's not realistic.
If you can't solo on every type of Defender, then that's a problem with YOU, not the AT. I have no problem with solo-ing any Defender.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...
[/ QUOTE ]
Says the guy playing a toon that has access to personal force fields?
Defenders are fine. Vigilance sucks, and should be removed, and Corruptors/Trollers need their static/pet debuffs nerfed appropriately, but defenders are fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ooh, because you know how much more easily you can defeat a foe while you're in your PFF.
[/ QUOTE ]
Weren't you just whining about not being able to defend yourself? Now it's that you want to defeat your opponent... as a "defender" ... ok...
[ QUOTE ]
For example, last night I fought a yellow conn Sky Raider Captain. Defeating him required my ENTIRE endurance bar. I was then forced to PFF and wait for my endurance to recover before I could fight the Wing Raider that was with him. This is with triple slotted Stamina and EndRedx in all powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Played lowbie tankers? Same song different day...
I really am all for replacing vigilance with something marginally useful, but not every character is going to be a solo powerhouse and you really, really want your MAN build to be a solo powerhouse. You still defeated the target, it took forever - sounds like game balance in action to me.
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't solo on every type of Defender, then that's a problem with YOU, not the AT. I have no problem with solo-ing any Defender.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heck, I'd bet that you could solo all Heroic content (sans Elite Bosses, those are technically small team content) using Air Superiority and nothing else.
Of course that makes the ability to solo a non-issue for balance. What matters is advancement rate while solo. Something I think Defenders tend to lag behind in, due in no small part to endurance issues.
[ QUOTE ]
The fact is that every character needs to be able to solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Every character can solo. Some just do it better than others. But trying to balance characters in an MMO, (doesn't one of those Ms stand for MULTIPLAYER?), on their ability to solo is just wrong.
I'd try running your original experiment of running a mission with a scrapper and a defender again. But this time make it a team of 8 scrappers and the other a team of 8 defenders. I'd much rather be on a team of 8 defenders of any build. Especially if the mission was set on a higher difficulty.
[ QUOTE ]
Every character can solo. Some just do it better than others.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nail, meet head.
If you're trying to suggest that Defenders should be able to solo as FAST as, for example, a Scrapper Ultimo_, well all I can say is you miss the point of THIS game entirely then. Maybe you'd be happier over in the "other" game.
Just wanted to add this quick. After I posted, I was browsing the forums again and found this thread.
Defenders and AVs
So after all this ranting about defenders being weak, people out there are asking which defender can solo an av, and are getting SEVERAL answers.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That wasn't the experience I had, and I was playing a Kin without using the blasts, relying on Flurry and Air Superiority instead. I soloed Terra and fought Adamastor to a standstill, with Kinetics, AS and Flurry.
[...]
25%, stacking, isn't sufficient? Getting it up to 75-90% (10% being the floor) isn't enough?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's of course 25% (or less) on one target. One on one, if the opponent does not have a strong resist to its damage type, the siphon power debuff is effective. For a spawn of 3 to 5, it simply doesn't make much difference. With four opponents, for example, one application reduces incoming damage by a whopping 6%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Slotting Siphon Power with a single Recharge Reduction training enhancement and using Siphon Speed gets the recharge time of Siphon Power down to just above 15s. So by level 6, one can have the -Damage applied to two foes within 15s. That leaves only two of your theoretical four enemies at full damage. It takes 5-7s, even for defenders, to defeat a single +0 minion in the early levels, which means you can defeat the two enemies without debuffs before the first debuff you applied expires.
Moving out of the training enhancement levels, slot Siphon Power and Siphon Speed with two Recharge Reduction DOs apiece. Now SP is recharging in 13s and SSpeed is recharging in 39s, you've got double-stacked SSpeed for 1/3rd of every minute and SP is recharging in 11.5s in that window, 13s outside of the window. Similarly, one is slotting the attacks to deal more damage and recharge more quickly, as well as utilizing the +Damage obtained from stacked SPs.
With SOs, SSpeed is effectively permanently double-stacked (25.5s recharge, three Recharge Reduction SOs) and SP's recharge time is below 10s (8.51s, three Recharge Reduction SOs). Now one is capable of reducing the damage on three enemies before the first use of SP expires.
And none of that takes into account the fact that you're also imposing 20% -Recharge and 62.5% -RunSpeed with every use of SSpeed, which also improves survivability by delaying the enemies' ranged attacks and assisting in preventing melee attackers from reaching you.
So the only points at which you'll deal a single foe debuffed and three or more not debuffed is before level 6 or within the first 10s of combat.
Combat is not a static event, and Kinetics is not a static powerset. Any Kin defender can maintain multiple -Dam (and -Recharge/RunSpeed) debuffs on multiple targets and survive that first 8-15s of combat without any trouble, unless they're scrapperlocking.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and doesn't last long,
[/ QUOTE ]
30s isn't long enough? The recharge time is only 20s...
[/ QUOTE ]
No, not really. In 30s, might get off five or six attacks (before global recharge bonuses from IOs start helping at high levels.)
[/ QUOTE ]
You can attack 5 times in 10s with no Recharge Reduction enhancements or global recharge boosts (including SSpeed).
<ul type="square">Psychic Blast by level 10:[*]Mental Blast - 1.67s animation, 4s recharge[*]Subdue - 1.67s animation, 6s recharge[*]Psychic Scream - 2.67s animation, 12s recharge[/list]
MB/Subdue/wait 0.66s for power recharge/MB/PS/Subdue = 10.01s total.
That's possible at level 10, without using SSpeed or slotting Recharge Reduction. Not even using Hasten. 10s by level 10 to use 5 attacks.
Opening with Siphon Power and using it again once in the 30s duration, you can still use 13-14 attacks within that 30s time frame. Adding Siphon Speed to the equation means you should be approaching animation time saturation, meaning your rate of attack is determined by your total animation time, not by recharge time.
And that's still without developing an optimized attack chain, or using Recharge Reduction enhancements, or even beyond level 10. The higher your level is, the more attacks and slots you have available and the more efficient your attack chain becomes.
[ QUOTE ]
With a 25% damage boost, that's equivalent to six to eight attacks. By doing something else other than siphon power, the difference is at best one extra attack. Attacking early with a damage attack mitigates damage faster (foes reduce in number more quickly) and allows side effects to help mitigate damage too (eg TK knockback or WD sleep.)
[/ QUOTE ]
I, and the facts, disagree with your conclusion.
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, give it a try. If you have 3 or more opponents soloing with kinetics, I find Siphon Power not really worth the effort, unless I get to use APP powers like Dominate or Mass Hyp. to avoid the aggro.
[/ QUOTE ]
Go back and read my post. I have done it, with fewer attacks and less damage output, and not only does my experience dispute what you've postulated, the hard numbers which define the powers bear out what I'm saying and completely disprove what you've said.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing the two were like night and day. It shouldn't be the case that Defenders, having a more interesting gameplay, should be so much less effective solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't the case. It never was. You chose not to utilize your powers effectively. That doesn't indicate a problem with the AT, with Kinetics or with Psychic Blast. Or, for that matter, whether or not defenders are "as good" at soloing as scrappers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it is entirely unfair to state that my experience is due to "not using my powers effectively".
[/ QUOTE ]
You were the one who said you didn't bother to use SP.
You were the one who said you could only attack 5-6 times in 30s.
The fault lies with you, whether you think it's "fair" or not.
[ QUOTE ]
Don't think I haven't tried a variety of play styles to make my defender a better soloer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently you didn't try any that involve attacking more frequently than once every five seconds, or using any of the Kinetics powers other than Transfusion or FS. If you had, you wouldn't have been limited to 5-6 attacks in a 30s time span, or been limited to having one foe debuffed in a 30s time span, or had such lamentable survivability issues.
[ QUOTE ]
Have you compared solo kin defending with scrapping? I'd be amazed if you found the former in any way comparable with the latter in terms of speed or survivability.
[/ QUOTE ]
You imposed unnecessary restrictions on yourself, like not using your primary powers, and limiting yourself to one attack every 5-6s. Remove those restrictions and you won't find the difference so profound, or amazing.
[ QUOTE ]
False. All characters are not meant to and aren't DESIGNED to "face the same challenges".
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually THIS is false. If my Scrapper goes to Azuria for a mission, or calls up a radio mission, they're identical to the missions my Defender gets. It's the SAME content, the SAME challenges. Both the Scrapper and the Defender are expected to be able to overcome them.
I've NEVER said that Defenders sould solo as fast as Scrappers. I've said, over and over, that ALL ATs have to be able to do enough damage to defeat their foes before their foes do enough damage to defeat them. Different ATs do this differently.
Tankers have high enough defenses and health that they have time to do the damage required.
Blasters have high enough damage that they can defeat their foes and not take damage in the first place.
Scrappers have a balance of the two.
Controllers avoid damage by way of controls (but also through debuffs and self heals), giving them time to do the damage required.
Defenders have low damage, and so need more time to defeat their foes. However, they lack the defenses and the health to give themselves the time. Debuffing sets fare better, as they CAN give themselves more time or more damage. Buffing sets suffer because they can't increase their OWN damage or defenses.
G_Tanker
I've said that exact thing (I'm posting in a buch of similar threads, and have lost track of where). Tankers and Defenders suffer more from endurance issues because they are forced to use more endurance to accomplish the same ends as other ATs.
You call my build a MAN build, but the reality is that I have almost all the powers I can use in both of my power sets. Only Force Bolt isn't in there. The other powers I took actually INCREASE my personal defense, as I have already said.
All characters, even Defenders haev to be able to defeat their foes. That's what the game is about.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
False. All characters are not meant to and aren't DESIGNED to "face the same challenges".
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually THIS is false. If my Scrapper goes to Azuria for a mission, or calls up a radio mission, they're identical to the missions my Defender gets. It's the SAME content, the SAME challenges. Both the Scrapper and the Defender are expected to be able to overcome them.
[/ QUOTE ]
But both of them aren't expected to overcome the same mission on Invincible. Thinking that an FF/Elec can take on the same missions at the same settings as a Fire/WP scrapper is just silly.
There is a BOTTOM level that all characters are meant to survive, yes. But what you're talking about is just that, the BOTTOM level.
I see that you didn't even respond to my other point, interesting.
srsly, what happened to "im not going to post here anymore". your wrong, there is overwhelming evidence that your wrong just go with it and let the thread die.
/mod8
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
I did respond, I was editing it in...
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders have low damage, and so need more time to defeat their foes. However, they lack the defenses and the health to give themselves the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
*rolls eyes*
Whatever you say...
Note, that was back before I had IOs, back when I was using SOs. No set bonuses, not even using the Fighting pool that I had selected OR any of those inspirations.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders have low damage, and so need more time to defeat their foes. However, they lack the defenses and the health to give themselves the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
*rolls eyes*
Whatever you say...
Note, that was back before I had IOs, back when I was using SOs. No set bonuses, not even using the Fighting pool that I had selected OR any of those inspirations.
[/ QUOTE ]
*rolls eyes*
I note that this clip is of a L50 character. I also not that this character makes extensive use of veteran powers. I note that I've said repeatedly that Defenders become more balanced late. I note that I've said before that not everyone has access to veteran powers.
What I said remains true. ALL CHARACTERS must have the capability to defeat their foes. That means doing enough damage to defeat THEM before they defeat YOU. That capability depends on the balance between DOING damage and WITHSTANDING damage.
If Defenders are to have low damage, then they must have high mitigation to allow them the time to defeat their foes (since it takes more time with lower damage output). Note that this also feeds into the endurance issues.
If Defenders are to have low mitigation, they must have high damage to allow them to defeat their foes more quickly (since they will be suffering more damage).
Some Defenders have debuffs reducing enemy accuracy or damage (eg. Dark). This is the same as increasing mitigation. This allows the defender more time to do damage with low damage attacks.
Some Defenders debuff enemy defenses, effectively increasing damage output (eg. Sonic). These Defenders can afford less mitigation because they have the damage to compensate.
Other Defenders have buffs, but they are unable to buff their own abilities. Force Fields cannot increase the Defender's mitigation. Empathy cannot increase the Defender's damage. These buffing characters are thus left with less offense and less defense than anyone else.
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...
[/ QUOTE ]
But they can defend the heck out of everyone else.
Maybe someday they will create a new archetype: Self Defender.
I will not rest until we have in-game throwable pies!