City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Defenders balance

Aett_Thorn

By Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2009-07-15 13:16 in Defenders

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski View Post
For the record, Snow Storm DOES NOT and NEVER HAS caused scatter.
I think I know what the root of this confusion is: Ultimo must be thinking Ice Storm every time he says Snow Storm. It's the only thing that can explain his opinion without going all the way to say he just made it up.

 

Posted

No more walls of text.

I'm done arguing. You twist words, quote out of context and use condescension, sarcasm, insult and derision to argue with, so I'm done being a target for you to stroke your ego to.

I began by stating my position in general terms. I was challenged that I had not provided specifics and numbers, so I discussed specifics and provided numbers. I was then derided for discussing specifics and not generalizing.

OBVIOUSLY there's more than one power that can be used, I BEGAN from that stance. I've changed nothing, I've simply discussed the different issues that arose during the course of the thread. You can quote little chunks out of context and make it seem I've changed my point of view if you like. It's not going to change that point of view.

You're trying to make the numbers mean whatever you want. Healing is HEALING, not Damage Reduction. They're different things, yet you deride me for not calling Healing Damage Reduction.

In any case, as far as I'm concerned, this thread has more than run its course.

 

Posted

Against my better judgement, I have decided to get involved with this thread. I read it from pages 1-13 and decided that I couldn't take it anymore, so if someone has already said this, I'm just seconding what you said already.

All I truly know about anything is based on my personal experience. This includes CoH. Someone can tell me things or give me advice, but my own experience will ultimately determine whether or not I dismiss that advice.

In my personal experience, this is true for everyone I've ever met as well.

That being said, if your experience has led you to the conclusion that certain powersets are useless (to you), then avoid using them. If you value/enjoy solo play more than team play, use sets that are better for soloing. If you're a teaming type, use sets that are better for teaming.

The whole point for such drastically different sets in a single AT is to give you a range of playstyles without leaving the AT. Again, this is what my experience has let me to conclude, but I suspect that others have come to the same conclusion.

If you don't like the AT in general (based on your experience with it), play a different one. Save those who like it a lot of headache by stating that your opinion is your opinion, and it is based purely on your own experience. Perhaps your personal style doesn't fit with the role(s) of a defender. That's okay, since there are plenty of other AT's to choose from.

As for the numbers you cite, I can't help but wonder if anyone who cites numbers is leaving something out (accidentally or otherwise) that would somehow invalidate their argument. The one thing I actually retianed from my Statistics course was that, without the whole picture, almost any conclusion could be drawn.

I'm not trying to invite an argument when posting this. I am, in fact, very tired of all the snide comments that have occurred on this thread. I'm just trying to say that, when it comes down to it, everyone is different. This means different things appeal to different people. Some people like the defender AT the way it is, while others would call for a drastic overhaul. Trying to balance these different views is a job I gladly leave to the Developers. I'm just trying to help people realize their differences and what they mean to the game as it is.

*The above is an opinion, stated as kindly as possible after reading 13 pages of people arguing. My intention is not to back one side or the other, but to suggest that those sides at least consider each other's point of view.*

 

Posted

healing/regen is a form of damage mitigation, you cannot refute that

and don't leave yet...for at least two more hours >.>

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo_ View Post
...this thread has more than run its course.
This seems unlikely.

 

Posted

For the record, all -Recharge powers MAY cause scatter due to mob AI. It is not part of the power directly, but if a mob has no powers ready to recharge within some time X, it will start to run away (or around), rather than standing still for 5 seconds until it has a recharged power.

This is due largely because Snow Storm is a very strong -Recharge debuff, and will only happen after they have fired off all their recharged powers, and only if they don't have a fast attack cycle. Most competent Defenders will usually defeat, control, or slow the targets down before they actually do scatter.

Which may explain why Ultimo sees that they may sometimes scatter.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_DJ View Post
healing/regen is a form of damage mitigation, you cannot refute that

and don't leave yet...for at least two more hours >.>
Depends your point of view.

I know Arcanaville calls them forms of mitigation, or did in the last post I read her writing about them.

I refuse to call them forms of mitigation, though, as I think of mitigation as things that prevent you to loose health.

I consider Healing and Regen forms of, well, healing after not being able to mitigate incoming damage.

The biggest difference is that Healing can't prevent you from dying from a spike. Think of it as discounts in a store vs mail in rebates that you still have to pay full price up front and hope you don't overdraft before the rebate gets to your bank account.

Both are, in my book, survival tools, but in two mayor separate different categories: Prevention (mitigation) and Recuperation (healing).

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA View Post
I refuse to call them forms of mitigation, though, as I think of mitigation as things that prevent you to loose health.
This is a semantics issue and a rather narrow definition of mitigation. In truth mitigation is something that can occur before or after whatever is being mitigated. Healing powers are reactive mitigation. +Def and +res buff and -Acc debuff powers are active mitigations. Both reduce the severity of incoming damage. I personally prefer active mitigation.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arondell View Post
This is a semantics issue and a rather narrow definition of mitigation. In truth mitigation is something that can occur before or after whatever is being mitigated. Healing powers are reactive mitigation. +Def and +res buff and -Acc debuff powers are active mitigations. Both reduce the severity of incoming damage. I personally prefer active mitigation.
The dictionary defines Mitigate as:
1 : to cause to become less harsh or hostile : mollify
2 a : to make less severe or painful : alleviate b : extenuate
Both of these denote reduction of pain, not removal of pain.

Now, Alleviate itself, noted as a synonym of 2a, happens to have two meanings on its own:
a : to make (as suffering) more bearable <her sympathy alleviated his distress>
b : to partially remove or correct <measures taken to alleviate a labor shortage> synonyms see relieve
Now, I don't know what is the popular usage of the word Mitigation and synonyms as I learned English by myself. I self taught via the Dictionary for the most part, attempting to avoid falling on the cultural traps all my Spanish teachers frowned upon in my every day native language. Due to this, I take the dictionary a bit literally and so I retain that the definition of "Mitigate" does not include repairing or curing implicitly.

Then again you will find my posts to have loads of typos and more than one grammatical errors so who am I to correct anyone. I just note why I don't include healing as mitigation.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA View Post
The dictionary defines Mitigate as:
1 : to cause to become less harsh or hostile : mollify
2 a : to make less severe or painful : alleviate b : extenuate
The dictionary defines Semantics as:
Quote:
3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.


While there are many reasons where you may want to separately analyze healing/regen and def/res (and/or to-hit/dam debuffs), AT balance, specifically relating to speed through missions/speed acquiring rewards is not one of them.

Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
The dictionary defines Semantics as:
Quote:
3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.
I'd argue I didn't try to interpret and went plainly for literal definition BUT that still is the same thing

Anyways, there was also this in my post:
Quote:
I just note why I don't include healing as mitigation.
Don't want anyone to change their meaning, why from the start I said "Depending on your point of view" just to dismiss a bit bashing against people that do see it this way, not to defend anyone other than myself, though.

Quote:
While there are many reasons where you may want to separately analyze healing/regen and def/res (and/or to-hit/dam debuffs), AT balance, specifically relating to speed through missions/speed acquiring rewards is not one of them.
I would not remove them from the complete discussion, they HAVE to be accounted for, but I would still not call it mitigation.

Anyone that uses the "it's not mitigation" as an excuse to eliminate it from the discussion is either too lazy to analyze it properly, just don't understand it, or just attempting to cover things that don't benefit their case.

 

Posted

All this reminds me of a joke I once heard:

A city man is driving down a country road, when he sees a farmer in a field whacking a donkey in the head with a two-by-four.

Concerned, the man gets out of his car and asks the farmer, "What are you doing?! You're going to hurt him!"

The farmer replies,"Yep, I am."

The city man, still concerned (and convinced that the farmer is a moron), says, "So stop hitting him!"

The farmer replies, "But I have to get his attention first!"

 

Posted

Well I could see as mitigation allievating death, not damage. Healing can stop you from dieing. Therefore, it is mitigation. It is not prevention however, and in general prevention is the best course.

TW/Elec Optimization

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA View Post
The dictionary defines Mitigate as:
1 : to cause to become less harsh or hostile : mollify
2 a : to make less severe or painful : alleviate b : extenuate
Both of these denote reduction of pain, not removal of pain.

Now, Alleviate itself, noted as a synonym of 2a, happens to have two meanings on its own:
a : to make (as suffering) more bearable <her sympathy alleviated his distress>
b : to partially remove or correct <measures taken to alleviate a labor shortage> synonyms see relieve
Now, I don't know what is the popular usage of the word Mitigation and synonyms as I learned English by myself. I self taught via the Dictionary for the most part, attempting to avoid falling on the cultural traps all my Spanish teachers frowned upon in my every day native language. Due to this, I take the dictionary a bit literally and so I retain that the definition of "Mitigate" does not include repairing or curing implicitly.
In the interests of showing why I do include it, and not to argue that your exclusion is incorrect....

The two offered definitions of "Mitigate" to not offer any fixed reference for when they apply. If damage is taken, and then removed, I find this fits the definition of making that (already sustained) damage "less harsh or hostile" or "less severe or painful". There's nothing implicit in those definitions that makes obvious that "mitigation" only applies when the thing to be mitigated has not yet been inflicted on its subject.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

I think part of it is the perspective on what you're trying to mitigate. In my view, you're mitigating death, not mitigating HP loss. You suffer no loss in performance or ability as your HP go down. The only HP that matters is the last one.

HP themselves are a type of mitigation (high pain tolerance, f'rex).

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA View Post
The dictionary defines Mitigate as:
1 : to cause to become less harsh or hostile : mollify
2 a : to make less severe or painful : alleviate b : extenuate
Both of these denote reduction of pain, not removal of pain.

Now, Alleviate itself, noted as a synonym of 2a, happens to have two meanings on its own:
a : to make (as suffering) more bearable <her sympathy alleviated his distress>
b : to partially remove or correct <measures taken to alleviate a labor shortage> synonyms see relieve
I interpret the definition of the term "mitigate" ("making less harsh") to include the case where the consequences, and not the literal magnitude, of the thing being mitigated are reduced, as in the phrase "mitigating circumstances."

However, mostly I only care to the extent that I'm clear. If everyone knows what I'm talking about, that's all that matters.

FYI, when I first jumped into the fray on damage calculations, a common forum assertion was that only Resistance was true "damage mitigation" because Defense doesn't reduce the damage of incoming attacks, it only causes some of them to miss. The notion of what "mitigate" is defined to be has a lot of lattitude for debate. Its just not really productive debate in my opinion.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo_ View Post
No more walls of text.

I'm done arguing.
So you came back after telling us that you were finished with this thread, to tell us that you're finished with this thread?

Quote:
You twist words,
You refuse to clarify anything you say, to the degree of deliberately obfuscating your statements by completely turning around and saying the opposite of what you said one post earlier, then you blame everyone around you for not agreeing with you (ironically, because as i said, you can't even keep your statements from conflicting, so anyone who might have agreed with you at one point would've been disagreeing with you the very next day when you changed your mind again).

Quote:
quote out of context
Incorrect yet again. I quoted you word for word, line for line, point for point and responded to everything you said in context. In the few cases where I did not address a point, such as your comment about being able to play with Brawl, I did not take part of that point and address it, I excised it completely.

At no time did I take part of a sentence, separate it from the qualifying remarks and address that while excluding the qualifiers. That, sir, is what "out of context" means, and it didn't happen here. You threw that claim out as another weak and futile attempt to pull some kind of "victory" out of this ridiculous debacle that you started, and just like everything else you've said, it was wrong.

Quote:
and use condescension, sarcasm, insult and derision to argue with,
I have not insulted you. If you interpret anything as an insult, it's a reflection of your own opinion of yourself, not mine.

And you have earned every iota of condescension, derision and sarcasm with your use deliberately flawed testing methodology to create biased results, dissembling, threatening people and fabrication of information on a whim. You have ignored facts, attempted to goad others into attacking you so you can make good on your threats, accused others of using dirty debate tactics (such as personal attacks, or addressing points "out of context") and attempted to portray yourself as possessing knowledge and experience superior to that of everyone else despite never having even used many of the powers you reference.

That's when you're not telling people off or ignoring them outright when they try to help you by offering advice for improving your builds and making it easier to solo. You treat everyone on these forums like morons and expect to be respected and honored in return.

You reap what you sow.

Quote:
so I'm done being a target for you to stroke your ego to.
Ah. If you're proven conclusively to be wrong on every point, it must be because someone has an ego, not an interest in ensuring that new or inexperienced players don't read those unfounded opinions which you state as facts and make the mistake of believing that even one thing you've said could be true.

Yeah, ego, that must be it.

Quote:
I began by stating my position in general terms. I was challenged that I had not provided specifics and numbers, so I discussed specifics and provided numbers. I was then derided for discussing specifics and not generalizing.
You fabricated numbers and discussed only the specifics which you wanted to emphasize while completely downplaying and ignoring everything else, up to and including other aspects of powers and the use of more than one power at any given point in time.

Quote:
OBVIOUSLY there's more than one power that can be used, I BEGAN from that stance.
You refused to address that in every single one of your attempts to analyze defender safety, instead repeatedly throwing out extreme corner case examples of defenders being trapped in impossible situations caused by the lack of or failure to use any of the other powers available to them.

So no, you did not begin from the position that more than one power can be used. In fact, until this post, you did not even acknowledge that fact.

Quote:
I've changed nothing, I've simply discussed the different issues that arose during the course of the thread. You can quote little chunks out of context and make it seem I've changed my point of view if you like. It's not going to change that point of view.
Again, every word you've set forth has been a matter of public record. Every post you've made refutes what you just said, and you can't even hide it by editing your posts because they've been quoted. Not out of context, despite your failure to grasp what that phrase means.

Quote:
You're trying to make the numbers mean whatever you want. Healing is HEALING, not Damage Reduction. They're different things, yet you deride me for not calling Healing Damage Reduction.
That's rich. You create numbers on the spot and try to shove your interpretations of those numbers down our throats, and when you've been proven to be wrong, it's someone else who is doing the mathematical manipulations.

Quote:
In any case, as far as I'm concerned, this thread has more than run its course.
So you'll be posting again soon, to try to "win" one more time and tell everyone that you're done again, right?

 

Posted

<Shang-Tsung> Lumiality! </Shang-Tsung>

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo_ View Post
Oh, for completion, here's a very quick list of some recent threads discussing this subject. There are undoubtedly more, but I no longer care to do more searching.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=136567
Already addressed this one when I was doing your work for you. Post #9 in that thread reveals the OP to be "pulling an Ultimo".

This is a thread discussing the usefulness or lack thereof of the inherent, not a thread about the ease or difficulty of soloing a defender. Entirely different topics.

Thread by a player asking for build advice so he can improve his solo performance. I don't see the hordes of suffering players filling that thread that you insist are real.

Current Defender Issues is a collective list of bugs, anomalies and potential problem areas with specific powers, not a thread created by or for defenders who have difficulty soloing.

Trying to use this thread to support your "endless threads" statement isn't even a stretch, it's pure BS.

You picked an 18 month old thread started by PK, the forum-acknowledged "voice of" and consistent supporter of FF being "great just the way it is", to discuss potential ways to tweak FF specifically to differentiate it from controller /FF, not to get it buffed, and you think that somehow equates to defenders complaining about not being able to solo?

Your list is bogus and your claim of "endless threads" of players complaining about defenders being to difficult to solo is bogus, just the same drama mongering and hyperbole that you've used throughout this thread.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee View Post
I think part of it is the perspective on what you're trying to mitigate. In my view, you're mitigating death, not mitigating HP loss. You suffer no loss in performance or ability as your HP go down. The only HP that matters is the last one.

HP themselves are a type of mitigation (high pain tolerance, f'rex).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I interpret the definition of the term "mitigate" ("making less harsh") to include the case where the consequences, and not the literal magnitude, of the thing being mitigated are reduced, as in the phrase "mitigating circumstances."

However, mostly I only care to the extent that I'm clear. If everyone knows what I'm talking about, that's all that matters.

FYI, when I first jumped into the fray on damage calculations, a common forum assertion was that only Resistance was true "damage mitigation" because Defense doesn't reduce the damage of incoming attacks, it only causes some of them to miss. The notion of what "mitigate" is defined to be has a lot of lattitude for debate. Its just not really productive debate in my opinion.
</mitigation definition debate>

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminara View Post
Already addressed this one when I was doing your work for you. Post #9 in that thread reveals the OP to be "pulling an Ultimo".
In other words, you're just dismissing the thread, nevermind that it WAS on the topic, as I said it was. I never said it was a good thread, it's just on topic.

Quote:
This is a thread discussing the usefulness or lack thereof of the inherent, not a thread about the ease or difficulty of soloing a defender. Entirely different topics.
The usefulness of the inherent is part of the discussion and has come up in this thread too.

Quote:
Thread by a player asking for build advice so he can improve his solo performance. I don't see the hordes of suffering players filling that thread that you insist are real.
Why do you suppose he's asking for advice? Might it be because his Defender isn't soloing well?

Quote:
Current Defender Issues is a collective list of bugs, anomalies and potential problem areas with specific powers, not a thread created by or for defenders who have difficulty soloing.

Trying to use this thread to support your "endless threads" statement isn't even a stretch, it's pure BS.
I agree, this one isn't directly on topic, but the subject came up in it, so I included it.

Quote:
You picked an 18 month old thread started by PK, the forum-acknowledged "voice of" and consistent supporter of FF being "great just the way it is", to discuss potential ways to tweak FF specifically to differentiate it from controller /FF, not to get it buffed, and you think that somehow equates to defenders complaining about not being able to solo?
I see. I suggest tweaks are needed, and I am attacked. He suggests it and it's true? Either way, it's the same topic approached from a different dierction.

Quote:
Your list is bogus and your claim of "endless threads" of players complaining about defenders being to difficult to solo is bogus, just the same drama mongering and hyperbole that you've used throughout this thread.
As I say, this is not a comprehensive list. I just did a search of the Defender forums for the terms "balance" "solo" and "weak," and this was what came up. If I took the time to search more thoroughly, I could easily come up with more, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to go on. I only listed them because you demanded it, and instead of recognizing that they are actually threads related to the same subject, you simply dismiss them. I will admit, however, I am somewhat prone to hyperbole for the sake of illustration.


I say, "There have been plenty of threads on this subject."

You say, "No there isn't, show me some."

I say, "Here's some."

You say, "Oh, but those don't count."

This is why I choose not to argue further. You simply dismiss or twist what I say, or failing that, hide behind condesension and derision. I really don't want to go on posting, but that would mean you get to deride me further without rebuttal. Note that neither of us is talking about the topic of the thread anymore, but instead are talking about how we post. For me, this is ample evidence that the thread has run its course.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo_ View Post
In other words, you're just dismissing the thread, nevermind that it WAS on the topic, as I said it was. I never said it was a good thread, it's just on topic.
I referred to it before you did, I included it in the total of three out of the supposedly "endless threads" which you insisted are on the forums but which do not exist, and the player's complaint was found to be exaggeration, not an actual problem.

"It doesn't FEEL like it's a lot" is not a valid complaint, argument, point or piece of evidence because it is 100% subjective and can be applied to every power in the game.

Therefore, the thread in question was not being dismissed, it had already been accounted for and proven to be unacceptable.

Quote:
The usefulness of the inherent is part of the discussion and has come up in this thread too.
The usefulness and usability of the inherent is debatable in every situation, teamed or solo, and therefore is not a complaint about the difficulty of soloing defenders but a complaint about the inherent itself.

Quote:
Why do you suppose he's asking for advice? Might it be because his Defender isn't soloing well?
It was because his defender wasn't soloing well, and he also listened to the suggestions and advice and resolved his issues instead of starting another thread with falsified data, wildly exaggerated claims of difficulty and demands for entire powersets or the AT itself to be buffed to tankmage status.

And the thread ended relatively quickly, without the multitude of struggling solo defenders that you claim to exist having shown up.

I will remind you that one person experiencing problems does not equate to the entire player base experiencing problems, or the AT being flawed, or the powersets being poorly designed, and I will also say that this post belies your statements because it proves that the players who are having trouble are asking for, receiving and following advice which alleviates their woes. All of the things you don't do, in other words.

Quote:
I agree, this one isn't directly on topic, but the subject came up in it, so I included it.
Which only highlights how desperate you are and how little you understand what you've been talking about.

Quote:
I see. I suggest tweaks are needed, and I am attacked. He suggests it and it's true? Either way, it's the same topic approached from a different dierction.
Not even remotely. That thread was intended to find a way to make defender FF different in some way from controller FF so there would be less "sameness" between the two. That's what the word "differentiate" means. To make different from something similar.

You aren't trying to differentiate defenders from any other AT, you're trying to get defenders buffed so you can play tankmages. Not the same topic, not the same approach, not the same suggestions, not even the same goals.

Quote:
As I say, this is not a comprehensive list.
Five threads, only two related to your assertion that there are "endless threads" from players complaining about defenders struggling while playing solo, one of those two debunked before ten posts and the other was a single player asking for and receiving advice, not pitching a hissy and demanding buffs and insisting that defenders are broken in solo play.

Five threads, five strikes, and I still have yet to see your "endless threads".

Quote:
I just did a search of the Defender forums for the terms "balance" "solo" and "weak," and this was what came up. If I took the time to search more thoroughly, I could easily come up with more,
Other than the ones you've started?

Quote:
but I have neither the time nor the inclination to go on.
Third time you've said you don't have time for this, third time you've come back and done it anyway.

Guess you're not that busy after all.

Quote:
I only listed them because you demanded it, and instead of recognizing that they are actually threads related to the same subject, you simply dismiss them.
Three of those threads have as much to do with players experiencing difficulty while soloing defenders as the Hong Kong stock exchange does. One of the remaining two was started by someone who proved to be overdramatizing his problems. The final one was not a complaint, but instead a request for assistance.

Quote:
I say, "There have been plenty of threads on this subject."

You say, "No there isn't, show me some."

I say, "Here's some."

You say, "Oh, but those don't count."
I say, "Where are these endless threads of people complaining about defenders being terrible for solo play?"

You say, "Bananas are tasty."

I say, "That doesn't answer the question."

You say, "Stop twisting my words! I didn't say bananas are tasty, you took my statement out of context and twisted it!"

Quote:
This is why I choose not to argue further.
And you're doing so well at this.

Quote:
You simply dismiss or twist what I say, or failing that, hide behind condesension and derision.
Or you change everything you say so frequently that you can't remember what you said and don't know any other way to cover up your immense failure with this thread other than to accuse me of being dismissive and mean.

Quote:
I really don't want to go on posting, but that would mean you get to deride me further without rebuttal. Note that neither of us is talking about the topic of the thread anymore, but instead are talking about how we post. For me, this is ample evidence that the thread has run its course.
In other words, you're taking your ball and going home again, and you really mean it this time, for at least five minutes.

 

Posted

poor Ultimo, never knew one person could be filled with so much wrong, or he's getting off on trolling.