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And you supplemented the with Dark miasma which is the 2nd most defensive and 2nd least offensive support set for defenders. Any blast set will eventually kill a +4 EB if they can't possibly be harmed. That however doesn't translate that defender damage is at an acceptable level for soloing missions because there is a vast difference between fighting a single high hp target and fighting 100 low hp targets. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is totally ridiculous.
If a given Defender can solo a +4 EB, it can also solo normal content. The point of the example is the damage the Defender can produce. This was in direct response to your claim that a Rad/Son would likely only be fighting Rikti bosses because it was using Sonic Attack, which is known to be the premier damage dealer among Defender sets. The counterpoint is that even a Defender with a different attack set can take down a very hard target. |
To put this in terms you can understand, Kin/Psi solos normal missions far better than Dark/Psi even though your Dark/Psi can take down a +4 EB.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
And you supplemented the with Dark miasma which is the 2nd most defensive and 2nd least offensive support set for defenders. Any blast set will eventually kill a +4 EB if they can't possibly be harmed. That however doesn't translate that defender damage is at an acceptable level for soloing missions because there is a vast difference between fighting a single high hp target and fighting 100 low hp targets.
To put this in terms you can understand, Kin/Psi solos normal missions far better than Dark/Psi even though your Dark/Psi can take down a +4 EB. |
I understand the terms you are using. I simply cannot accept the logic you are using them to explain.
What's at issue is whether a Defender's damage is sufficient to solo. The example Defender for which you replied to Talen_Lee was Rad/Sonic, and he claimed he preferred to hunt bosses instead of minions. You claimed he would probably not want to do that if he was using some other attack set. The clear implication is that other attack sets lack the damage to perform that activity in a safe amount of time. My counter is that being able to beat down a +4 EB with Psi Blast and no meaningful -regen (no use of Howling Twilight) in no way suggests to me that Psi Blast would be inadequate for attacking bosses at a lower level.
It is utterly irrelevant whether or not Dark Miasma's mitigation was required to defeat the EB (something I doubt - I strongly suspect a Rad/Psi or possibly even a Kin/Psi could do it as well.) All that matters is that, given that mitigation I was able to deal enough damage to defeat a +4 Elite Boss. The whole point is that I don't need the same kind of focused mitigation to survive normal solo spawns as I do for a +4 EB.
You're implicitly arguing that the damage that allowed me to defeat a +4 Elite Boss is not enough for non Dark Miasmist to survive a normal solo spawn, which is ludicrous in the general case, and easily disproven by reviewing posts by several respondents to this thread. One does not need Dark Miasma's mitigation to survive the "typical" spawn. If Psi Blast has the damage to defeat a +4 Elite Boss in 8 minutes of beating on it (I have now timed it using no inspirations, no vet powers and no epic powers, but an IO build), I find it inconceivable anything as mundane as +2 minions and LTs are any match for such a character unless they can readily mez, which is a completely different threat profile for any Defender.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Uberguy, I don't think there is anything you can say, write, demonstrate, play video of, or whatever that will convince Turbo Ski or the OP otherwise. | This is totally ridiculous. |
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| If a given Defender can solo a +4 EB, it can also solo normal content. The point of the example is the damage the Defender can produce. |
In my opinion, I consider defenders to be overpowered already with what they can do, and threads like this would lead to nerfs to them, making them equal to controller/corruptors.
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Seeing as how it was CASTLE who stated the debuffs and buffs are out of whack in this game, you would probably be correct.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Uberguy, I don't think there is anything you can say, write, demonstrate, play video of, or whatever that will convince Turbo Ski or the OP otherwise.
And this is why. Some defenders are awesome all around, some shine exceptionally well on teams. In my opinion, I consider defenders to be overpowered already with what they can do, and threads like this would lead to nerfs to them, making them equal to controller/corruptors. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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No where did I say a Dark/Psi couldn't survive spawns of minions, but it's absolutely ludicrous to claim that Dark/Psi has acceptable solo damage compared to other ATs when it's roughly 30% behind in corruptor damage and not an anywhere reasonable tradeoff in support values.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I understand the terms you are using. I simply cannot accept the logic you are using them to explain.
What's at issue is whether a Defender's damage is sufficient to solo. The example Defender for which you replied to Talen_Lee was Rad/Sonic, and he claimed he preferred to hunt bosses instead of minions. You claimed he would probably not want to do that if he was using some other attack set. The clear implication is that other attack sets lack the damage to perform that activity in a safe amount of time. My counter is that being able to beat down a +4 EB with Psi Blast and no meaningful -regen (no use of Howling Twilight) in no way suggests to me that Psi Blast would be inadequate for attacking bosses at a lower level. It is utterly irrelevant whether or not Dark Miasma's mitigation was required to defeat the EB (something I doubt - I strongly suspect a Rad/Psi or possibly even a Kin/Psi could do it as well.) All that matters is that, given that mitigation I was able to deal enough damage to defeat a +4 Elite Boss. The whole point is that I don't need the same kind of focused mitigation to survive normal solo spawns as I do for a +4 EB. You're implicitly arguing that the damage that allowed me to defeat a +4 Elite Boss is not enough for non Dark Miasmist to survive a normal solo spawn, which is ludicrous in the general case, and easily disproven by reviewing posts by several respondents to this thread. One does not need Dark Miasma's mitigation to survive the "typical" spawn. If Psi Blast has the damage to defeat a +4 Elite Boss in 8 minutes of beating on it (I have now timed it using no inspirations, no vet powers and no epic powers, but an IO build), I find it inconceivable anything as mundane as +2 minions and LTs are any match for such a character unless they can readily mez, which is a completely different threat profile for any Defender. |
Go try playing a Cold/Ice defender from 1 to 50 and a ice/cold corruptor from 1 to 50 and see how massively different they perform solo and yet the corruptor still performs better on teams because of the massive damage difference at almost the same support values as the defender. Same could be said about Dark/Dark def vs Dark/Dark corr as well as several other builds.
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I soloed the above Dark/Psi to 50, and the character was level 44 before I9, so I only benefitted from Inventions after level 46 or so. When I say solo something, I generally mean I really soloed it. Before we had an XP switch, I wouldn't team before level 45 on a new character, and I generally max out the relationship bar on all my contacts.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
No where did I say a Dark/Psi couldn't survive spawns of minions, but it's absolutely ludicrous to claim that Dark/Psi has acceptable solo damage compared to other ATs when it's roughly 30% behind in corruptor damage and not an anywhere reasonable tradeoff in support values.
Go try playing a Cold/Ice defender from 1 to 50 and a ice/cold corruptor from 1 to 50 and see how massively different they perform solo and yet the corruptor still performs better on teams because of the massive damage difference at almost the same support values as the defender. Same could be said about Dark/Dark def vs Dark/Dark corr as well as several other builds. |
When I hit level 18 or so, I bumped my mission setting to Unyielding. When I hit level 30 or so, I bumped it to Invincible and left it there. When that gave me an AV or Monster, I soloed them if I could and fed them a Shivan if I could not. With a few exceptions, a Shivan backed by Dark Miasma will eat even a +2 AV with a nice Chianti and some fava beans. (Back when I was doing this, playing on Invincible still got you +2 or +3 AVs.)
Given all that, I think I'm well versed in what it's like to solo a non-Sonic Attack, non-Kinetics Defender, and I disagree firmly with your subjective assertion that it's "absolutely ludicrous to claim that Dark/Psi has acceptable solo damage". All that tells me is that you don't find it acceptable, which is not a clear indicator of a problem.
I'm a power-gamer. Would I turn my nose up on a damage buff? Taken in a vacuum, I would not. That's a very different question than whether I feel a damage buff is required.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Castle's opinion on what's out of whack may have changed lately.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Seeing as how it was CASTLE who stated the debuffs and buffs are out of whack in this game, you would probably be correct.
|
-looks at granite+healer AE 54 boss farms: buffs and debuffs not welcome-
My gosh, it looks like WoW in there.
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Merely a side-effect of newbies PLing rapidly and the architect retail box sales which produces an effect like retarded bunnies breeding.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Castle's opinion on what's out of whack may have changed lately.
-looks at granite+healer AE 54 boss farms: buffs and debuffs not welcome- My gosh, it looks like WoW in there. |
EDIT: WoW has a similar effect with it's recruit-a-friend XP bonus gain generating retard high level players btw.
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What about Fulcrum Shift?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Kinetics can boost damage by 25% (making the effective damage 0.65+25%=0.77, which is better, but still lower than anyone else).
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| Radiation has multiple debuffs to reduce enemy defense, making them easier to hit. With accuracy a limited problem, this is actually a limited benefit, and doesn't actually increase damage output much. |
Six of the nine Defender primaries have full use of their damage-output-boosting tools even while soloing, and one of the other three has partial use. Do you really consider that "some"?
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| Kinetics can debuff foe damage by up to 25%, and has no other defensive measures. |
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I left out Fulcrum Shift on purpose, because like many Tier 9 powers, it's not a normal part of the character's usage. We don't consider Unstoppable, for example, when talking about Tanker mitigation.|
Originally Posted by Corebreach
What about Fulcrum Shift?
What about Enervating Field? Six of the nine Defender primaries have full use of their damage-output-boosting tools even while soloing, and one of the other three has partial use. Do you really consider that "some"? If you're counting powers that can keep you alive, and not "mitigation" in a strict dictionary sense, there is also Transfusion. (And Repel, technically, but it's awfully tough to leverage as a defensive tool.) |
I thought I mentioned Enervating Field.
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| Radiation Emission has a small heal, and powers that debuff enemy to-hit and damage, and even a hold. that makes it one of the most effective defensive sets. However, it has limits. RI reduces To-Hit by 48%, which is pretty decent. However, if your foe DOES hit you, you have no defenses. Fortunately, Enervating Field reduces damage by 25%. The other drawback is the extreme endurance cost. Before Stamina, the endurance cost of running these toggles and attacking is prohibitive. |
Yes, I call this SOME. Decent mitigation or decent damage is not available to all Defenders, so that means it's only available to SOME Defenders. The only question is, what's decent?
Some sets are designed to improve damage, and they have less mitigation. This is as it should be. The problem is that the amount of damage is still too low (in general).
Some sets are designed to provide survivability (mitigation) at the expense of damage. The problem here is that the mitigation provided is usually too low to let the Defender survive long enough to fight most foes with their minimal damage.
Worst of all, sets that buff instead of debuff can't use many of their powers on themselves, rendering them weaker than ANYONE. It's my feeling that this is where the Defenders suffer the greatest disparity. I'd like to see things improved for all Defenders, but for buffing sets in particular, as they are the most disadvantaged.
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Would you similarly ignore MoG for a */regen Scrapper, RoA for an arch/* blaster, Granite Armor for a stone/* tanker, Dark Servant for a dark/* defender, or any of the other tier 9s that are used all the time rather than being reserved for "oh-****" occasions?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I left out Fulcrum Shift on purpose, because like many Tier 9 powers, it's not a normal part of the character's usage. We don't consider Unstoppable, for example, when talking about Tanker mitigation.
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Fulcrum Shift is on such a short recharge with a sufficiently long duration that its baseline uptime is 75%. That's not a power you ignore. And it's not like Fulcrum costs an inordinate amount of endurance, much less that endurance might be a problem for a kinetics.
Some tier 9s are ignorable because they're not standard usage. Fulcrum Shift isn't one of those.
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| I missed Transfusion. Yes, it's a small heal, but it helps a little. |
I wasn't aware Fulcrum Shift is a common usage power. As I think back, I don't believe I've ever seen it in use. Either way, it's a Tier 9 power, which means it's coming after L30. That's a long time to wait, but it does provide significant benefits (foes lose 25% damage, heroes gain 25%), as any Tier 9 does (with the possible exception of Force Bubble). Also, this is kinetics, once again. Like Dark, Kinetics is one of those sets that works pretty well. People keep referring to kinetics as proof that Defenders are just fine, but I just don't see it as typical.
As for Transfusion, I've never played a Kinetics character to any appreciable level, but it didn't seem to do much more than Rad's healing aura. Mids confirms your analysis, Radiant Aura is a 13% heal, Transfusion is 23%. Healing Aura is 13%, Heal Other is 25%.
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It's no different than someone using a FF/, horribly gimped build to determine "defender's balance."|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Like Dark, Kinetics is one of those sets that works pretty well. People keep referring to kinetics as proof that Defenders are just fine, but I just don't see it as typical.
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And Kin/ not typical? What set is typical? Dark? Nope. Kin? Nope. How about Cold/? or Rad/? I'm guessing you'll say no as well. What about Storm/?
Do you see my point?
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Ultimo, for heaven's sake, if you don't know how something works, either look it up before you comment on it, or just don't talk about it. I'm not arguing on your side here, but it still pains me to see you undercut yourself so thoroughly. Even if you think you know what you're talking about, try to bear in mind how often you're corrected on factual information, and either ask or go check an in-game or on-line reference.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I missed Transfusion. Yes, it's a small heal, but it helps a little.
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Transfusion is one of the two largest AoE heals in the game, the other being Dark Miasma's Twilight Grasp. While it's centered on the foe, the fact that it's an AoE means it's still usable in a way that affects the "caster". Every good Kinetic I've ever seen uses it that way. They have to be up in things' grilles to use Fulcrum Shift on themselves anyway, so it's natural to use Transfusion to heal off those same foes when they get uppity about it.
Just to give you some reference, Transfusion is 178% as much heal as Healing Aura (Empathy) or Radiant Aura (Rad Emish). That's not a "small heal" or just a "little" help.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Uber:
I did look up most of what I discussed. I missed Transfusion, as I said, and fool that I am, I figured it would be comparable to other Tier 1 heals, which are 13%. Transfusion, as I said, is 23% (saying it's 178% of other heals may be accurate, but it's misleading unless you note the level of the other heals).
I checked and confirmed your data when I was informed I'd missed Transfusion. Either way, my point remains valid.
Clouded:
I have said nothing about my specific build. You're referring to a different thread. A Force Field Defender will have only 15% Defense. That's all. He can't get any more than that from his powers. I did note that he has powers to bounce foes around, but they're often not reliable, and are thus of limited benefit.
If you look at the huge post I made, you'll see that I noted that Kin and Dark are not typical of the other sets, inasmuch as they provide decent offense and defense (respectively). Storm does too, but only indoors. Other sets, like Rad, Cold, FF, and Sonic don't provide adequate offense OR defense (compared to other ATs).
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Woe is the poor Rad defender.| Other sets, like Rad, Cold, FF, and Sonic don't provide adequate offense OR defense (compared to other ATs). |
While I think all defenders are great, I have seen people often complain about some defenders. Never before have I seen a person place Rad on the "woe is me" list.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Yes. Poor rads, its not like they have any survivability do they ?
31.25% base tohit debuff, that goes to 48.75% with 3 SO. Which as anyone with a smidgen of knowledge knows, floors the tohit of any normal mob in the field. (15 foot radius).
AVs do resist the debuff significantly of course.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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I have to agree on this one StratoNexus, When I think SOLO defenders, RAD and DARK are the first two primaries that come to mind. And I have played both of them at least into SO territory. They solo very well in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Woe is the poor Rad defender.
While I think all defenders are great, I have seen people often complain about some defenders. Never before have I seen a person place Rad on the "woe is me" list. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Is it opposite day or something, because your analysis is way off. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
If you look at the huge post I made, you'll see that I noted that Kin and Dark are not typical of the other sets, inasmuch as they provide decent offense and defense (respectively). Storm does too, but only indoors. Other sets, like Rad, Cold, FF, and Sonic don't provide adequate offense OR defense (compared to other ATs).
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Dark and FF are the least offensively focused support sets and most defensively focused support sets. Frankly FF could stand to have some -res tossed into Repulsion bomb and the damage on Force Bolt increased significantly to make up for it's current poor offensive capabilities. Dark really only needs to rebalance Tar Patch's duration and recharge to be the same as Sleet/FR and completely redesign Black Hole into an inverted repel patch with a -Def component.
Kin and TA are easily the most offensive support sets and the most lacking in mitigation (more so in TA's case since debuffs get resisted and purple patched versus Kin buffs that don't). Kin suffers from being numerically too much alike between ATs that it actually suffers as a defender primary, Speed Boost and Siphon Speed for example should not be identical across all ATs. TA simply suffers from it's mitigation being too weak and spread out amongst too many powers to reliably mitigate Alpha strikes, I blame this mostly on Flash being a smoke bomb clone with a crappy animation time for crappy tohit debuff value and PGA's sleep not having a slottable tohit check to help mitigate alphas a bit more.
Storm, Cold, and Rad are all middle ground hybrids that offer more variety at the cost of being less focused in either direction. These sets are pretty well considered to be the most balanced of all support sets between defender primaries (not so between ATs because of inconsistencies in values). There are problems with individual powers such as Frostworks, Lightning Clap, and Fallout but they don't hold back the overall performance of the set.
Sonic and Empathy pretty heavily handicapped with too much focus on ally only powers with the leftover powers being too weak for an adequate solo performance. Empathy could stand to have it's Regen and Recovery auras tweaked include a self only fortitude buff attached. Sonic however is frankly a mess, Sonic Repulsion needs to be trashed or changed into an PbAoE toggle on self and Sonic Siphon should really be like a -Res/+Res version of Siphon Speed.
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BINGO ! I cannot see anything here that I disagree with TURBO.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Dark and FF are the least offensively focused support sets and most defensively focused support sets. Frankly FF could stand to have some -res tossed into Repulsion bomb and the damage on Force Bolt increased significantly to make up for it's current poor offensive capabilities. Dark really only needs to rebalance Tar Patch's duration and recharge to be the same as Sleet/FR and completely redesign Black Hole into an inverted repel patch with a -Def component. Kin and TA are easily the most offensive support sets and the most lacking in mitigation (more so in TA's case since debuffs get resisted and purple patched versus Kin buffs that don't). Kin suffers from being numerically too much alike between ATs that it actually suffers as a defender primary, Speed Boost and Siphon Speed for example should not be identical across all ATs. TA simply suffers from it's mitigation being too weak and spread out amongst too many powers to reliably mitigate Alpha strikes, I blame this mostly on Flash being a smoke bomb clone with a crappy animation time for crappy tohit debuff value and PGA's sleep not having a slottable tohit check to help mitigate alphas a bit more. Storm, Cold, and Rad are all middle ground hybrids that offer more variety at the cost of being less focused in either direction. These sets are pretty well considered to be the most balanced of all support sets between defender primaries (not so between ATs because of inconsistencies in values). There are problems with individual powers such as Frostworks, Lightning Clap, and Fallout but they don't hold back the overall performance of the set. Sonic and Empathy pretty heavily handicapped with too much focus on ally only powers with the leftover powers being too weak for an adequate solo performance. Empathy could stand to have it's Regen and Recovery auras tweaked include a self only fortitude buff attached. Sonic however is frankly a mess, Sonic Repulsion needs to be trashed or changed into an PbAoE toggle on self and Sonic Siphon should really be like a -Res/+Res version of Siphon Speed. |
That still leaves the question in my mind (That ALOT of folks oppose), which is WHY cannot these less solo-friendly powersets get some help. Not to the point that they are overpowered or "Scrapper-like", but to the effect that they dont feel completely gimp without a tremendous effort to make them "Solo-able" ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Interestingly, he didn't say anything I hadn't already said (and I didn't say anything others haven't already said).|
Originally Posted by Biospark
BINGO ! I cannot see anything here that I disagree with TURBO.
That still leaves the question in my mind (That ALOT of folks oppose), which is WHY cannot these less solo-friendly powersets get some help. Not to the point that they are overpowered or "Scrapper-like", but to the effect that they dont feel completely gimp without a tremendous effort to make them "Solo-able" ? |
I honsetly don't understand the resistance to any suggestion that Defenders get a little love.
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Agreed, I deleted my first lvl 50 hero, a fire/empathy controller after Issue 5 because they justifiably removed the multiple pets and thus removed the primary soloing crutch for that type of build. A self-only fortitude buff attached to one of the long recharge auras would have salvaged the character for me.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
BINGO ! I cannot see anything here that I disagree with TURBO.
That still leaves the question in my mind (That ALOT of folks oppose), which is WHY cannot these less solo-friendly powersets get some help. Not to the point that they are overpowered or "Scrapper-like", but to the effect that they dont feel completely gimp without a tremendous effort to make them "Solo-able" ? |
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To be Honest ULTIMO, for a game that has matured like COH has, I suspect that it comes down to volumn of feedback. The Noble "Empathy" defenders that should be here asking for help have either A) Fully Accepted and Embraced that they are "Group-Only" Heroes.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Interestingly, he didn't say anything I hadn't already said (and I didn't say anything others haven't already said).
I honsetly don't understand the resistance to any suggestion that Defenders get a little love. |
or B) Moved on to other options (Like myself) where I can enjoy group play AND still Solo from time to time.
Also, I have noticed with these types of games that it eventually becomes a game filled with only HIGH-END characters and their ALTS. So the "emphasis" and "concerns" of the Developers and Community of players is less about leveling up (And Difficulties or Imbalances) but more about keeping the Hard-Core "stable" of players happy and interested.
That was not a criticism of gamers, devs or players (by the way), just an observation after 9+ years of MMO play in many different games.
Also, just for the record, CoH Stands head and shoulders over the top of other MMOs in their embracing of trying new things, as opposed to the same-old thing but with a new wrapper (which is how I see most MMOs these days)
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
There is so much of this game that is aggressively soloable, and you guys are here to try and change the tiny fraction that isn't, because you see being 'different' as being 'wrong.' This is why there is resistance. Because you think you can just flat-out add to powersets that already are strong. Because you don't understand the powersets you think are weak. And because those of us with those characters, who aren't obssessed about solo speed, knowing that it's just one point on a large scale, don't want to lose the effectiveness we built for in the name of people who don't even understand what they're talking about getting what they want when their desire is already well-provided for.
If a given Defender can solo a +4 EB, it can also solo normal content. The point of the example is the damage the Defender can produce. This was in direct response to your claim that a Rad/Son would likely only be fighting Rikti bosses because it was using Sonic Attack, which is known to be the premier damage dealer among Defender sets. The counterpoint is that even a Defender with a different attack set can take down a very hard target.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA