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CoX has never marketed itself with an uber raid mentality. The game has ALWAYS been focused on all levels of game player rather than lvl 50 end game content.
Just because other games choose to utilize that design is not really a logical reason for CoX to, especially given how the game was launched and has grown. Even if we agree that ultra rares (like beyond purple rare) is acceptable, it should never be the pvp class of rewards.
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A person without ultra, uber rare items in CoX isn't restricted from any actual game content. Unlike WoW, where you need raid gear from a lower level raid just to survive a higher level raid, CoX is balanced around SOs. Unlike FFXI, there are no content practically restricted to the uber guilds, requiring a huge application just to get in (after a "trial" period). CoX is far, far removed from hardcore MMOs.
This really isn't about casual-friendly anymore. It's about people always wanting what they don't have, the "credit card" mentality. People can still be casual and experience everything in the game. Person A having better gear doesn't negatively impact Person B, other than the latter's inherent jealousy. That's a human flaw, rather than game design flaw.
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You're right CoX is far far removed from hardcore MMO's
When this game has x million users I might agree it needs or at least could use some clear cut ways to segregate users. For now, with just over 100k or so it really doesn't need anything that drives people apart.
I'm not sure if you were disagreeing or agreeing with what I said.
I will agree that the condition is a human flaw, but once it is diagnosed and then deliberately introduced into the game design it becomes a design flaw.
Anyway, I've yet to see any convincing reason from Dev's or players that indicates pvp IO's should be exceedingly difficult to acquire through pvp activity. The market will take care of itself it you take care of the root issue.
I love how the dev's ruin everything! The dev's think .. "oh.. they can this or that easy.. what do we do? NERF!"
The dev's said the new pvp nerf's were made so the casual player can pvp, well... how is the casual player supposed to obtain pvp recipes? Thr casual player will still get totally wrecked in pvp anyway!
Why dev's? why do you think every answer is "NERF IT!"? You just made it more difficult for everyone to pvp now, if your intentions for the huge pvp nerfs were to make everyone closer to be equal, how is nerfing pvp recipes going to help? the new pvp recipe nerf will only make pvp worse!
I would also like to say, thank you very much for the pvp nerf's! You took AT uniqueness away!
My heroes DON'T feel heroic in pvp anymore!
My villains DON'T feel villainous anymore!
THANK YOU!
Keep up the nerf's and watch the player base get smaller!
JUST LEAVE THE PVP RECIPES THE WAY YOU ORIGINALLY MADE THEM TO DROP!
---------------------------------------------------------
"A coward dies many times before their death, the valiant taste death but once." - William Shakespeare
Learn it... OWN IT!
I figured out a way to get PvP and everything the way we want it, but a huge sum of stock in NCSoft, then pull your I'm an investor card and I want this NAOW and it will be done.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I'm glad you agree. I'm concerned about the wannabe label. If you would like PvP to be a bit more popular, I'd drop it. Entrance-level player is far nicer and implies they might become a serious pvper someday.
As someone who would indeed like to explore PvP, the cost of these isn't helping.
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The "PvP-wannabe" label is this skewed PvE expectation of rewards in PvP. Firstly, the mindset is completely different. There were PvPers before PvP IOs came out. It wasn't about the drops. It was about having intelligent prey, the hunt, and finally the kill. This "what about drops...what about me" mindset is completely PvE.
Secondly, PvErs somehow expect the learning curve in PvP to be as easy as it was in PvE. Actual players aren't mobs you can just herd blindly into another's AoE all day long. PvErs should expect a much steeper investment of time and energy before the rewards will bear fruit. But, as mentioned before, if loot is the only motivating factor for a PvEr to PvP, then they're just wannabe's.
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If they were purple level bonuses, they would have +15% accuracy, +10% Recharge. PvP IOs are good, but they aren't purples. If I were building a PvP toon I would use purples AND PvP IOs. Purples being the priority for certain powers, especially given DR. They may have behaviors similar to purples, but they aren't purples. The sooner they start being treated as non-purples, the better for the PvP community.
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Um....you do realize that in PvP, these "PvP" IOs have BOTH the PvE and PvP set bonuses applied right. Thus, while PvPing, PvP IO has overall better combined set bonuses than purples. That is one of the reasons why I would choose PvP IOs over purples for PvPing.
PvP IOs also have set bonuses that are either not available elsewhere, or in very limited cases: Slow Resistance, Repel protection, Knockback protection, Mez duration reduction, increase Range. Most of these are "purple" level usefulness for PvP.
Also, there are PvP IOs for certain categories that have no purples: Resist Damage, Healing, Defense. That means PvP IOs are the only sets in these categories that keep their set bonuses when exemplaring. They essentially become the "purples" of these categories.
The problem is your perspective is that of a PvEr. Thus, PvP IOs are not as "useful" for you as purples. Hence, all the comparing of purple vs. PvP IO prices. But, these are the purples for PvP.
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When the entire rest of the game is built around being easily and immediately accessible to players, sticking in items that require huge amounts of grinding, luck and time to get when nothing else in the game is similarly inaccessible is both inconsistent, and clashes with the rest of the game design, which does nothing really except encourage deviant gameplay in order to achieve them. When you make a game so casual-acessible, adding items that are counter to that encourages them to play the game in unintended ways to achieve those items.
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That's only on the assumption that everyone should get everything. If we were playing the City of Socialism, then I would agre with you, but we're not. Thus, there will be players at the top and players at the bottom.
Items for "hardcore" players are for those type of players. A "casual" player just shouldn't have that expectation to get those items. They weren't meant for that segment of the playerbase.
I specifically used examples from other MMOs to point out that none of the content in CoX is restricted to players with hardcore items. A casual player can easily access all areas of the game. The hardcore items are just another mini-game that players can choose to pursue if they want to.
Purples, for example, aren't dropped from certain areas that only the elite few can get to or bosses that only the elite few can defeat.
As for PvP IOs, PvPing, while requiring a steeper learning curve than PvE, is still much more accessible than MMOs like Guild Wars or Perfect World where the elite guilds dominate the rest.
Thus, I believe that having these hardcore items doesn't make CoX any less casual friendly.
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Anyway, I've yet to see any convincing reason from Dev's or players that indicates pvp IO's should be exceedingly difficult to acquire through pvp activity. The market will take care of itself it you take care of the root issue.
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Unfortunately, the particular PvP IOs that were released are "purple" level IOs, in regards to their PvP performance. Since they're "PvP" IOs and only drop in PvP, using their PvE performance as a guage is not accurate. Thus, they will need to have "purple" level drop rate in PvP. Apparently, the devs decided the effort it took to kill 5000 level 50 mobs to get a purple drop is roughly equal to the effort it took to kill 100 players to get a PvP IO drop. PvP has a much smaller population, so the absolute number of drops will be proportional to that. In other words, the percentage of PvErs that have purples should be roughly equal to the percentage of PvPers that have these particular PvP IOs.
The dev's mistake was not introducing crappier PvP IOs, ones that don't exmplar, much smaller set bonuses, and even without any PvP-only set bonuses. These could drop more often at a relative rate comparable to the crappier PvE IO sets.
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Anyway, I've yet to see any convincing reason from Dev's or players that indicates pvp IO's should be exceedingly difficult to acquire through pvp activity. The market will take care of itself it you take care of the root issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, the particular PvP IOs that were released are "purple" level IOs, in regards to their PvP performance. Since they're "PvP" IOs and only drop in PvP, using their PvE performance as a guage is not accurate. Thus, they will need to have "purple" level drop rate in PvP. Apparently, the devs decided the effort it took to kill 5000 level 50 mobs to get a purple drop is roughly equal to the effort it took to kill 100 players to get a PvP IO drop. PvP has a much smaller population, so the absolute number of drops will be proportional to that. In other words, the percentage of PvErs that have purples should be roughly equal to the percentage of PvPers that have these particular PvP IOs.
The dev's mistake was not introducing crappier PvP IOs, ones that don't exmplar, much smaller set bonuses, and even without any PvP-only set bonuses. These could drop more often at a relative rate comparable to the crappier PvE IO sets.
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All of which I already stated.
But until that time the current crop of pvp IO's are the ONLY meaningful pvp rewards, and as far as we know the only ones coming. So putting them on a drop rate where engaging in active pvp does not reward them totally defeats their purpose.
Hence their predictable, expected, and resulting failure.
*I'll say this upfront, you'll have a heck of a time convincing me and most people (other than the dev's apparently) that something that is failing the purpose that it was intended is working as intended, or at the very least, not requiring attention.
It also doesn't really matter that they are on (or near) purple level IN pvp, DR takes care of that to ensure that makes little difference. The only meaningful benefit they bring is the ability to exempt down to lower pvp zones, which while good hardly warrants their current (and soon to be even rarer) status. That just doesn't carry the same meaning it does in pve.
You haven't done anything yet to show otherwise.
On the other hand, supporting what I'm saying is that:
As a pvp reward they have failed - almost completely. It is time to set aside the preconceived notions of how they should be relative to pve counterparts. Shoehorning them into a specific criteria is why they have failed. It is why they will continue to fail, and why they will always fail until those incorrect beliefs are abandoned.
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Anyway, I've yet to see any convincing reason from Dev's or players that indicates pvp IO's should be exceedingly difficult to acquire through pvp activity. The market will take care of itself it you take care of the root issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, the particular PvP IOs that were released are "purple" level IOs, in regards to their PvP performance. Since they're "PvP" IOs and only drop in PvP, using their PvE performance as a guage is not accurate. Thus, they will need to have "purple" level drop rate in PvP. Apparently, the devs decided the effort it took to kill 5000 level 50 mobs to get a purple drop is roughly equal to the effort it took to kill 100 players to get a PvP IO drop. PvP has a much smaller population, so the absolute number of drops will be proportional to that. In other words, the percentage of PvErs that have purples should be roughly equal to the percentage of PvPers that have these particular PvP IOs.
The dev's mistake was not introducing crappier PvP IOs, ones that don't exmplar, much smaller set bonuses, and even without any PvP-only set bonuses. These could drop more often at a relative rate comparable to the crappier PvE IO sets.
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LOL the mistake is making PVP about the car and not the driver. The equivalent would be for the average joe to try to be enticed into running the Baja 500 in their day to day vehicle. It just isnt going to happen.
As another upside the PvP IOs obliterate any good spin you could put on the I13 changes. You used to be able to say that they were trying to make PvP about skill and just not doing a very good job of it, now that rationale is destroyed.
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The way this game works allows for a unique type of player- the "casual hardcore".
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For introducing this term I am going have you severely beaten.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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It also doesn't really matter that they are on (or near) purple level IN pvp, DR takes care of that to ensure that makes little difference. The only meaningful benefit they bring is the ability to exempt down to lower pvp zones, which while good hardly warrants their current (and soon to be even rarer) status. That just doesn't carry the same meaning it does in pve.
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Oh for some people the ability to do to real players what they do to NPCs because they have about 20% advantage over them does matter. Defense combos love resistance bonuses and everyone still loves recharge, hp, and recovery bonuses.
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The way this game works allows for a unique type of player- the "casual hardcore".
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For introducing this term I am going have you severely beaten.
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casually beaten, with a hardcore stick.
You can tell its hardcore as it has purple nails in it
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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This is the only MMO I'm familiar with where the "best" gear is available to everyone without demanding a huge time commitment.
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And I love it for that.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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The way this game works allows for a unique type of player- the "casual hardcore".
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For introducing this term I am going have you severely beaten.
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casually beaten, with a hardcore stick.
You can tell its hardcore as it has purple nails in it
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You win.
This thread... is clean.
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So is THAT what I should expect from my light hearted Hero based MMO I started with my 8-year old son in January?
*looks for the unsubscribe box*
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Are you expecting to get the l33t stuff from lighthearted play? If it were really lighthearted play, you'd be more worried about getting enough influence to buy your next set of singles, not your PVP (lol) IO. OR any other IO.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
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But until that time the current crop of pvp IO's are the ONLY meaningful pvp rewards, and as far as we know the only ones coming. So putting them on a drop rate where engaging in active pvp does not reward them totally defeats their purpose.
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No, the ONLY meaningful PvPing reward is the actual PvPing itself. The thrill, the rush, the tactics of facing against real enemies, not drones waiting to be herded like cattle. There were PvPers before any PvP IOs were introduced. The loot concept is strictly a PvE ideal. It's why PvP-oriented games like Guild Wars de-emphasized loot and concentrated on builds and skill.
Don't bother PvPing if you're going to PvP with a PvE mentality. If you actually wanted to PvP, you would try to be good first before even thinking about any loot you "deserved" for your effort. The learning curve and the reward curve is much, much steeper in PvP than in PvE.
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*I'll say this upfront, you'll have a heck of a time convincing me and most people (other than the dev's apparently) that something that is failing the purpose that it was intended is working as intended, or at the very least, not requiring attention.
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So you're saying the devs intended to have a bunch of wannabe-PvPers in the zones in search of loot?
If you were even an ioata of a PvPer, your effort would be on why PvPing itself is failing to be fun, not what loot you're unable to get.
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It also doesn't really matter that they are on (or near) purple level IN pvp, DR takes care of that to ensure that makes little difference. The only meaningful benefit they bring is the ability to exempt down to lower pvp zones, which while good hardly warrants their current (and soon to be even rarer) status. That just doesn't carry the same meaning it does in pve.
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This is assuming that a player has hit DR for everything. These PvP IOs make a huge difference if someone hasn't hit DR yet. Even with DR, these still provide boosts in stats that are not normally found in any other set IOs.
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As a pvp reward they have failed - almost completely. It is time to set aside the preconceived notions of how they should be relative to pve counterparts. Shoehorning them into a specific criteria is why they have failed. It is why they will continue to fail, and why they will always fail until those incorrect beliefs are abandoned.
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It's really simple. If these are not worth their value in PvE, then don't get them for PvE use. If you're not going to put in a full-fledged effort to getting to the top of PvP, then just stay in your PvE realm and pretend these never existed. They're not for you.
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The way this game works allows for a unique type of player- the "casual hardcore".
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For introducing this term I am going have you severely beaten.
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casually beaten, with a hardcore stick.
You can tell its hardcore as it has purple nails in it
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Haw!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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But until that time the current crop of pvp IO's are the ONLY meaningful pvp rewards, and as far as we know the only ones coming. So putting them on a drop rate where engaging in active pvp does not reward them totally defeats their purpose.
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No, the ONLY meaningful PvPing reward is the actual PvPing itself. The thrill, the rush, the tactics of facing against real enemies, not drones waiting to be herded like cattle. There were PvPers before any PvP IOs were introduced. The loot concept is strictly a PvE ideal. It's why PvP-oriented games like Guild Wars de-emphasized loot and concentrated on builds and skill.
Don't bother PvPing if you're going to PvP with a PvE mentality. If you actually wanted to PvP, you would try to be good first before even thinking about any loot you "deserved" for your effort. The learning curve and the reward curve is much, much steeper in PvP than in PvE.
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I am not a PvPer but what you wrote makes a lot of sense to me.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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So you're saying the devs intended to have a bunch of wannabe-PvPers in the zones in search of loot?
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This is blindingly obvious.
They ran off a lot of the 'old' pvp crew with the recent changes.
It makes perfect sense to add some sort of real rewards to lure new ones in, especially given the prevalence of the attitude "why should I pvp when there are no rewards?"
They clearly weren't happy with the previous status quo of a small population of increasingly hardcore players and wanted to shake things up. Drawing new players with good rewards is part of that strategy.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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So you're saying the devs intended to have a bunch of wannabe-PvPers in the zones in search of loot?
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This is blindingly obvious.
They ran off a lot of the 'old' pvp crew with the recent changes.
It makes perfect sense to add some sort of real rewards to lure new ones in, especially given the prevalence of the attitude "why should I pvp when there are no rewards?"
They clearly weren't happy with the previous status quo of a small population of increasingly hardcore players and wanted to shake things up. Drawing new players with good rewards is part of that strategy.
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And they had to make defeating other players part of the equation because we can get shivans and nukes when no one else is in the zones which I think is really stupid.
But this and bounties in Sirens are also really stupid because you have to get other people in the zones. Something which you have no control over.
I think they need to go back to square one and figure out what would either motivate current players to PvP or attract PvPers to the PvP minigame.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Don't bother PvPing if you're going to PvP with a PvE mentality. If you actually wanted to PvP, you would try to be good first before even thinking about any loot you "deserved" for your effort. The learning curve and the reward curve is much, much steeper in PvP than in PvE.
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Just out of curiosity, how much do you think skill matters in PvP? My experiences in PvE have sort of led me into thinking of the game as being primarily oriented around button mashing... which is probably your point. But I honestly don't quite get where skill enters into the equation. What "levers" do PvPers have at their disposal that require skill to utilize? Range? Corners? Knowing your opponent's attack chain in advance?
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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I think they need to go back to square one and figure out what would either motivate current players to PvP or attract PvPers to the PvP minigame.
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To get folk in the zones they should junk the arena, which they won't.
To make zone PvP equitable they need powers designed for PvP- on that front I like the I13 changes, although it may be too little too late. The old "same power for pve and pvp" was ridiculous in a game that started out PvE only, and hideously unbalanced PvE at that.
To get 'regular' players into the PvP zones they need rewards on par with 'real' gameplay. This is a lesson they learned, perhaps a bit to well, with AE. The recipes are a start, but with the new drop limitations I think they will seem impossible to most players.
The development of that part of the game has been such a mess from day one I'm not sure there's anything they can do, really. But if they figure out a way to reward PvP participants on par with pve gameplay, that would be a good start.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
They could probably have people gain exp and drops in PvP zones and not the arena because honestly I don't think people who dislike PvP would hang there very long when PvPers are there.
That may be one area of the game where they want to forget the "pro-casual player" attitude and recommend people practice in the arenas.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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But I honestly don't quite get where skill enters into the equation. What "levers" do PvPers have at their disposal that require skill to utilize? Range? Corners? Knowing your opponent's attack chain in advance?
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With I13 pvp, hardcore or even learned pvpers have this over new pvpers
-Knowing DR better
-Knowing zones better
-Having better Evasion skill
-Knowing which builds to go after and which ones to stay away from
-Knowing that their mez's don't mez anymore
I have to say, on occassion the most dangerous person in a zone CAN be a pve'r, simply due to the nature of FotMs and builds are designed around what other players are rolling and how the players are playing. Inserting a random build into a zone can have good or bad results.
Hardcore and more learned pvpers are gonna beat inexperienced pvpers, its not much of a debate, its more along the lines of fact.
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Don't bother PvPing if you're going to PvP with a PvE mentality. If you actually wanted to PvP, you would try to be good first before even thinking about any loot you "deserved" for your effort. The learning curve and the reward curve is much, much steeper in PvP than in PvE.
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Just out of curiosity, how much do you think skill matters in PvP? My experiences in PvE have sort of led me into thinking of the game as being primarily oriented around button mashing... which is probably your point. But I honestly don't quite get where skill enters into the equation. What "levers" do PvPers have at their disposal that require skill to utilize? Range? Corners? Knowing your opponent's attack chain in advance?
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yes.
movement is a hurdle(sorry 
) people who are great at pve have a hard time overcoming in trying pvp. supression was meant to help ease that but just annoyed alot of people.
understanding who to pressure in a team v team setting is a very important skillset, imo. even decent pvpers who are great in zones soloing often dont know what to do when both sides are equal.
knowing things like who can mezz you through your protections and if you can survive an encounter long enough to score is something else that comes with experience.
pvp does have skill involved outside of powersets and loot.
about the op: im glad this pvpio subject is getting alot of attention, maybe it'll get some positive fixes soon.
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Even in this casual-friendly game there are hardcore players. Players that are willing to pay 100M+ for purples and LotGs, and 600M+ for the PVP uniques.
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The way this game works allows for a unique type of player- the "casual hardcore".
My gameplay is almost entirely casual. I mostly run missions, I never have time for TFs, the most merits I've ever had at one time is 30, my weekly in-game exposure is down to a couple of hours.
But thanks to the market, I'm able to l337 out whichever characters I care to. The Goat has a couple of PvP sets, a few purple sets and the rest of his powers slotted with "good" IOs. My fire/rad controller is slotted to the gills and has a couple of purple sets sitting in base storage because I'm too lazy to respec him and I don't want to just overwrite the "good" IO sets he's already using.
This is the only MMO I'm familiar with where the "best" gear is available to everyone without demanding a huge time commitment.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone