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If the goal is to get people to PvP the rarity needs to be not so rare to make people not want to bother and not so common as to make them pointless.
I think they would probably be best served to have more PvP sets where we have rare ones and very good uncommon ones which would entice people to want to PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
That firt point has been thrown around plenty, but your suggestion here is actually a pretty good idea! I hadn't thought of it, but it makes perfect sense. You can double the amount of recipes, double the drop rate and still have the same effective drop rate on the rare ones. In fact, they could probably 1.5x the drop rate and effectively LOWER it and people wouldn't care because they're still getting SOME kind of cool drop more often. I like it!
I suggest you drop that idea over in the suggestion forum. I'd /sign it.
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Not as cool but easy to implement would be that they could let you get regular drops too, right? I mean I'd be happy geting a random drop. Hell it be cool to drop ANY recipe maybe some of the really low level ones even. Just something better than nothing...
I also think another good idea is to not only have a chance for a recipe every rep kill, but also to be able to turn in rep for a random roll. Maybe 25 for an uncommon (if we're going with the above), 50 for a rare.
They would have to find some merit system to work with the Arena, but I think it would be good.
22 50's in Bio
@Siphonic
RIP PX, GMW, and the game that used to be fun.
Still playing for reasons unknown.
Given that PvP IO drops are now tied to rep, perhaps it's time to take another look at the rep system (which was previously only good for earning two badges, as rep really isn't an indicator of skill).
The current problem is that killing someone while the rep timer is on a cooldown actually resets that timer. Additionally, if you did damage to an enemy, and someone else got the kill, you won't be able to get rep off that enemy until that cooldown period is over. Likewise, if they've killed you recently, returning the favor won't get you rep. So here's the proposal, to make rep a bit easier to understand and a bit more reliable for being able to determine PvP drops:
1. Rep timer is a hard 5-minute timer. Rather than resetting each time you kill that same target, it simply resets five minutes after the first kill.
2. The rep timer does not start unless you or a teammate gets the kill.
3. Being killed by, or attacked by, another player will not start your rep timer against them. The only way to start the rep timer is to kill someone.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
Given that PvP IO drops are now tied to rep, perhaps it's time to take another look at the rep system (which was previously only good for earning two badges, as rep really isn't an indicator of skill).
The current problem is that killing someone while the rep timer is on a cooldown actually resets that timer. Additionally, if you did damage to an enemy, and someone else got the kill, you won't be able to get rep off that enemy until that cooldown period is over. Likewise, if they've killed you recently, returning the favor won't get you rep. So here's the proposal, to make rep a bit easier to understand and a bit more reliable for being able to determine PvP drops:
1. Rep timer is a hard 5-minute timer. Rather than resetting each time you kill that same target, it simply resets five minutes after the first kill.
2. The rep timer does not start unless you or a teammate gets the kill.
3. Being killed by, or attacked by, another player will not start your rep timer against them. The only way to start the rep timer is to kill someone.
[/ QUOTE ]
^^^^^^ That.
Agree 100%
It would be easier to have pvp IOs drop off mobs during a TF/SF. This would improve the supply to the market a lot. Tweak it so it don't work through flashbacks and you're set.
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Deserve? There you go again using words that have no meaning in an MMO. Why do I deserve it? Because I pay my $15 a month just like the next guy.
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The ONLY thing $15 gets you is access to their servers and their support. Absolutely nothing else is guaranteed. If you want to equate real money with getting in game items, try out RMT instead.
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Analogy time! Let's say I want to play a football video game but someone decided that only a microscopically small portion of players could play their favorite team. What makes me think I deserve to play my favorite team? It's a [censored] football video game that I am paying money for! What does DESERVE have to do with anything?
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Your analogy downright sucks. The proper analogy would be to compare your favorite football team to your favorite AT and powersets, which everyone does have access to.
Try again!
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The same theory applies here. Remember folks, it's a VIDEO GAME. We pay money to play, that's the extent of my contribution and that's why I deserve EVERYTHING in the game. If I don't like it, I'll take my money elsewhere. That's the bottom line for the devs and time will tell how much this move will hurt their bottom line.
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um..GTFO then? No one is really going to miss you with that attitude. The "bottom line" is that any long term survival of a MMO requires certain goals that are also long term. Goals in which people can show that they are better than others and allow them to stand out. The only thing you "deserve" with your contribution is an opportunity, not matter how small, to put in hard work to get items you want. If you're not going to work for them, then it shows you don't really need them in the first place.
[ QUOTE ]
It would be easier to have pvp IOs drop off mobs during a TF/SF. This would improve the supply to the market a lot. Tweak it so it don't work through flashbacks and you're set.
[/ QUOTE ]
They're ===> PvP <=== IOs. They're not for the PvEers. If people aren't willing to step into a PvP zone to try and earn some, then they should be at the mercy of the people who do to put them on the market.
[ QUOTE ]
So here's the proposal, to make rep a bit easier to understand and a bit more reliable for being able to determine PvP drops:
1. Rep timer is a hard 5-minute timer. Rather than resetting each time you kill that same target, it simply resets five minutes after the first kill.
2. The rep timer does not start unless you or a teammate gets the kill.
3. Being killed by, or attacked by, another player will not start your rep timer against them. The only way to start the rep timer is to kill someone.
[/ QUOTE ]
As usual, a sensible and well thought out proposal from MacSkull. I 100% agree that this would fix the drop problem and entirely take care of the "deadlock" problem of zone PVP with a small number of participants.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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The same theory applies here. Remember folks, it's a VIDEO GAME. We pay money to play, that's the extent of my contribution and that's why I deserve EVERYTHING in the game. If I don't like it, I'll take my money elsewhere. That's the bottom line for the devs and time will tell how much this move will hurt their bottom line.
[/ QUOTE ]
um..GTFO then? No one is really going to miss you with that attitude. The "bottom line" is that any long term survival of a MMO requires certain goals that are also long term. Goals in which people can show that they are better than others and allow them to stand out. The only thing you "deserve" with your contribution is an opportunity, not matter how small, to put in hard work to get items you want. If you're not going to work for them, then it shows you don't really need them in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're missing the point. Well points. The first is that I think your use of words like "deserve" and "contribute" have no basis in a video game like CoH, but especially in the case of PO recipe drops. You're using rhetorical tricks that I've seen certain other groups (which I won't specify here in the hopes of not starting a flame war) use, and I don't like it. But that point is, if you'll excuse the pun, besides the point.
My MAIN point is that I just don't agree that the drop rate should be so ridiculously low (emphasis on ridiculous). If I do decide that I want one, "working" towards it won't work because the drop rate is so low that it's closer to winning the lottery than pulling in a pay check. If I could "work" for it and get one, I'd be happy. I don't see that as the case with the upcoming changes.
[ QUOTE ]
but it doesn't, and IMHO making them too rare reduces their effectiveness as the carrot on the stick for the non-hardcore.
[/ QUOTE ]
What would completely fix this would be to have an occasional event that dramatically increased the drop rate for PVP recipes and XP too. Like, insanely hugely bump the drop rate to something amazing like 1:5 instead of 1:100 and double or triple XP too. Such that PVE'ers would have the same kind of slavering reaction they have to double XP weekend.
This would lead to a rush of people going to participate in zone PVP. Would there be farming? Of course! But out of the thousands of people going just to get the pretty-much-guaranteed phat loot, it's likely that dozens or hundreds would go "hey, this is pretty fun. I want to do this more often." Thus PVP drops would serve their (IMO) intended function, which is to encourage and reward more PVP participation.
At the end of the special event weekend, drops and XP return to normal. Supply quickly dries up, and people are clamoring for the next PVP special event weekend. 
What makes this work as an incentive for mass PVP participation is that it's temporary and the loot is virtually guaranteed. Just fiddling with small tweaks to the current drop rate won't do it. Change the drop rate from 1:100 to 1:80? Yawn. Still no incentive. And the problem with tiny incentives is that if a zone has 10 people in it and 1 guy is encouraged to go there by marginal drop changes, he gets repeatedly owned by the hardcore guys that live there. In a massive influx, the hardcore PVPers would be like sharks in the water, but there'd be so many that you'd have a lot of noob on noob action, which would be a lot more fun for all noobs concerned. 
Because drops are tied to rep, this would have to be tied with MacSkull's suggestions of changing how rep timers get started and (not) reset.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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It would be easier to have pvp IOs drop off mobs during a TF/SF. This would improve the supply to the market a lot. Tweak it so it don't work through flashbacks and you're set.
[/ QUOTE ]
They're ===> PvP <=== IOs. They're not for the PvEers. If people aren't willing to step into a PvP zone to try and earn some, then they should be at the mercy of the people who do to put them on the market.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's more than one way to get rewards in this game. I can buy a recipe that only drops from the rare TF drop table on the market without ever having to actually do a TF. When people talk about supply to the market, it's a valid point. There's nothing wrong with a PVPer earning inf by selling his recipes to a PVEer who wants to pay an agreeable price. But I think most of us would say that there's a supply problem if recipe prices are topping 700M.
Even at those prices you have a problem that new participants don't have incentive to go there. Let me use an analogy: if I offered you a job to work for me and said that every year at your annual review there was a random 10% chance that I'd increase your pay, would you like that deal? Of course not. You want a guarantee that if you put in the work, you get compensated.
For a new PVPer under the new drop rules it's incredibly likely that going into a zone and participating in PVP for an hour or two will result in two things: utter humiliation and no drops. For something to act as an incentive, there has to be at least a perception of a reasonable chance of receiving the carrot.
If the devs meant for PVP recipes to serve as a way to benefit those who live their lives in PVP zones, then mission accomplished. If they meant them to be an incentive to encourage participation in PVP, then not only was the initial implementation a failure but the latest changes are failure squared.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
[ QUOTE ]
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It would be easier to have pvp IOs drop off mobs during a TF/SF. This would improve the supply to the market a lot. Tweak it so it don't work through flashbacks and you're set.
[/ QUOTE ]
They're ===> PvP <=== IOs. They're not for the PvEers. If people aren't willing to step into a PvP zone to try and earn some, then they should be at the mercy of the people who do to put them on the market.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's more than one way to get rewards in this game. I can buy a recipe that only drops from the rare TF drop table on the market without ever having to actually do a TF. When people talk about supply to the market, it's a valid point. There's nothing wrong with a PVPer earning inf by selling his recipes to a PVEer who wants to pay an agreeable price. But I think most of us would say that there's a supply problem if recipe prices are topping 700M.
Even at those prices you have a problem that new participants don't have incentive to go there. Let me use an analogy: if I offered you a job to work for me and said that every year at your annual review there was a random 10% chance that I'd increase your pay, would you like that deal? Of course not. You want a guarantee that if you put in the work, you get compensated.
For a new PVPer under the new drop rules it's incredibly likely that going into a zone and participating in PVP for an hour or two will result in two things: utter humiliation and no drops. For something to act as an incentive, there has to be at least a perception of a reasonable chance of receiving the carrot.
If the devs meant for PVP recipes to serve as a way to benefit those who live their lives in PVP zones, then mission accomplished. If they meant them to be an incentive to encourage participation in PVP, then not only was the initial implementation a failure but the latest changes are failure squared.
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, I'm fully aware they are "PvP" intended. Increasing supply on the market will be good the players in general. And seriously other than the procs most of the set bonuses are not very good for PvE only players.
Hardcore pvpers don't only PvP, they farm and run TFs to earn cash for their PvP builds. Adding another drop source would increase supply and lower prices. Who can really argue against that.
[ QUOTE ]
My MAIN point is that I just don't agree that the drop rate should be so ridiculously low (emphasis on ridiculous). If I do decide that I want one, "working" towards it won't work because the drop rate is so low that it's closer to winning the lottery than pulling in a pay check. If I could "work" for it and get one, I'd be happy. I don't see that as the case with the upcoming changes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then don't. These can be considered the game's "epic" gear from now on, the rarest of the rare only reserved for the elite few as a trophy.....the fortune 500 CEOs of the playerbase if you will. Go ahead and take your money and try and find an even remotely successful MMO that doesn't have these extremely rare type items.
[ QUOTE ]
But I think most of us would say that there's a supply problem if recipe prices are topping 700M.
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Prices are relative. It's a ratio of supply:demand, with the demand being expressed in the form of inf. Perhaps, there's an inf problem, rather than a supply problem. Inf is just too easily created in the game. Perhaps they could drastically cut new inf creation and/or create massive inf sinks. I bet that'll lower these "ridiculous" prices then.
[ QUOTE ]
Even at those prices you have a problem that new participants don't have incentive to go there. Let me use an analogy: if I offered you a job to work for me and said that every year at your annual review there was a random 10% chance that I'd increase your pay, would you like that deal? Of course not. You want a guarantee that if you put in the work, you get compensated.
[/ QUOTE ]
Before PvP recipes, people still PvPed. What was their incentive? If nothing else, it'll just revert back to players PvPing because they actually liked PvPing.
[ QUOTE ]
For a new PVPer under the new drop rules it's incredibly likely that going into a zone and participating in PVP for an hour or two will result in two things: utter humiliation and no drops. For something to act as an incentive, there has to be at least a perception of a reasonable chance of receiving the carrot.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or it acts as a long term incentive, rather than instant gratification. Think of it as a "sunk cost" for a new PvPer to learn how to PvP before actually being rewarded...a type of learning curve. It'll be like investing in a startup before it goes IPO. You won't see initial returns, but **if** successful, the returns will be very nice.
[ QUOTE ]
Indeed, I'm fully aware they are "PvP" intended. Increasing supply on the market will be good the players in general. And seriously other than the procs most of the set bonuses are not very good for PvE only players.
Hardcore pvpers don't only PvP, they farm and run TFs to earn cash for their PvP builds. Adding another drop source would increase supply and lower prices. Who can really argue against that.
[/ QUOTE ]
It all depends on the intended rarity of the PvP recipes. Based on their current actions, the devs seems like they want these (or at least don't mind) to be very, very rare. There is absolutely nothing wrong with extremely rare items in MMOs. TBH, I haven't played a single MMO that didn't have such items in place already. They were used to differentiate the top players (guilds) from the rest of the masses.
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but it doesn't, and IMHO making them too rare reduces their effectiveness as the carrot on the stick for the non-hardcore.
[/ QUOTE ]
What would completely fix this would be to have an occasional event that dramatically increased the drop rate for PVP recipes and XP too. Like, insanely hugely bump the drop rate to something amazing like 1:5 instead of 1:100 and double or triple XP too. Such that PVE'ers would have the same kind of slavering reaction they have to double XP weekend.
[/ QUOTE ]
that's a great idea.
I mean, some folk will just never set foot in a pvp zone, but it would be great incentive for folk like me who'd like to like it.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
What would completely fix this would be to have an occasional event that dramatically increased the drop rate for PVP recipes and XP too. Like, insanely hugely bump the drop rate to something amazing like 1:5 instead of 1:100 and double or triple XP too. Such that PVE'ers would have the same kind of slavering reaction they have to double XP weekend.
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I like this idea and it would encourage me to pvp. *PMs to sunstorm*
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To twist one of BaB's quote, did you just use PVP IO and causal in the same post? 
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The OP must PvP IO his second build on his purpled warshade.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would completely fix this would be to have an occasional event that dramatically increased the drop rate for PVP recipes and XP too. Like, insanely hugely bump the drop rate to something amazing like 1:5 instead of 1:100 and double or triple XP too. Such that PVE'ers would have the same kind of slavering reaction they have to double XP weekend.
[/ QUOTE ]
It will be perceived as " something for nothing". Risk vs. reward is a big thing on Positron's agenda. Great idea but I bet 4 bill enfamy it never happens.
except it isn't 'something for nothing', it's a lure to get players to try PvP. Think of the drops as a promotional cost.
Rather like 2xp itself, come to think of it.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
edit: meant as a qr.
We asked for pvp rewards and they gave them to us. Unfortunately we forgot to ask that a person has more than a chance in hell of ever getting one, but surely that is our fault
What most people are failing to realize is that PO availability on the market is far down the list of priorities compared to actually getting the odd drop while actively pvp'ing. Of course they are connected, but the latter is what the entire focus should be.
If there is no meaningful (tangible) chance of receiving a pvp reward while pvp'ing then the pvp reward doesn't exist for most users.
PvP IO's weren't put in the game to cater toward the ultra rich, the super hardcore pvp'er, or arena farmers, they were put in the game to reward pvp activity. They have failed at that since inception and these changes only serve to make the issue worse.
There are numerous ways to solve this issue, each one better than what the devs have chosen to go with, but this is coming from the studio that brought us i13 pvp changes. So really, what can you expect?
I had a little goal I made a few weeks ago...do all my pve with my scrapper and brute to PVP IO out my Dom and Blaster. Oh well guess I'll just have to save up three times as much money to make that happen...
[ QUOTE ]
If there is no meaningful (tangible) chance of receiving a pvp reward while pvp'ing then the pvp reward doesn't exist for most users.
PvP IO's weren't put in the game to cater toward the ultra rich, the super hardcore pvp'er, or arena farmers, they were put in the game to reward pvp activity. They have failed at that since inception and these changes only serve to make the issue worse.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is what I was trying to explain to "poopy" but alas, there's no explaining with tr...err...triple chocolate ice cream is what I was gonna say!
Honestly, any MMO with loot is going to end up having a few stupidly rare items. At least in CoX anyone, even casual players, can eventually get any item in the game. Play a 50 long enough and you will end up with enough inf to buy even the PvP 3% defense IO. It may take a long time, but it's possible. Compare that to many other MMOs where it's literally impossible for a non-hardcore player to ever get the top loot because doing so requires a lot of raiding for non-transferable items. Like in FFXI, where there is a boss that requires dozens of people on a 24 hour raid to defeat it. 
You can probably count the number of times it's been beaten on one hand. Or WoW's "grind raid dungeon A for months to get gear so you can grind dungeon B for months so you can get gear to grind dungeon C for months..." format. The worst I've seen was Earth and Beyond, where there were items that gave crafters a huge advantage by boosting item quality... and the items were hyper-rare random drops that had a drop rate of around one per year per server. Needless to say, they could not be bought at any price... the only one I ever heard of being sold went for a large chunk of real-world cash.
Compared to that nonsense, a billion inf for the game's rarest IO isn't that bad...
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, any MMO with loot is going to end up having a few stupidly rare items. At least in CoX anyone, even casual players, can eventually get any item in the game. Play a 50 long enough and you will end up with enough inf to buy even the PvP 3% defense IO. It may take a long time, but it's possible. Compare that to many other MMOs where it's literally impossible for a non-hardcore player to ever get the top loot because doing so requires a lot of raiding for non-transferable items. Like in FFXI, where there is a boss that requires dozens of people on a 24 hour raid to defeat it. You can probably count the number of times it's been beaten on one hand. Or WoW's "grind raid dungeon A for months to get gear so you can grind dungeon B for months so you can get gear to grind dungeon C for months..." format. The worst I've seen was Earth and Beyond, where there were items that gave crafters a huge advantage by boosting item quality... and the items were hyper-rare random drops that had a drop rate of around one per year per server. Needless to say, they could not be bought at any price... the only one I ever heard of being sold went for a large chunk of real-world cash.
Compared to that nonsense, a billion inf for the game's rarest IO isn't that bad...
[/ QUOTE ]So is THAT what I should expect from my light hearted Hero based MMO I started with my 8-year old son in January?
*looks for the unsubscribe box*
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, any MMO with loot is going to end up having a few stupidly rare items. At least in CoX anyone, even casual players, can eventually get any item in the game. Play a 50 long enough and you will end up with enough inf to buy even the PvP 3% defense IO. It may take a long time, but it's possible. Compare that to many other MMOs where it's literally impossible for a non-hardcore player to ever get the top loot because doing so requires a lot of raiding for non-transferable items. Like in FFXI, where there is a boss that requires dozens of people on a 24 hour raid to defeat it. You can probably count the number of times it's been beaten on one hand. Or WoW's "grind raid dungeon A for months to get gear so you can grind dungeon B for months so you can get gear to grind dungeon C for months..." format. The worst I've seen was Earth and Beyond, where there were items that gave crafters a huge advantage by boosting item quality... and the items were hyper-rare random drops that had a drop rate of around one per year per server. Needless to say, they could not be bought at any price... the only one I ever heard of being sold went for a large chunk of real-world cash.
Compared to that nonsense, a billion inf for the game's rarest IO isn't that bad...
[/ QUOTE ]
Or they could just make the IOs not so ridiculously rare.
Problem solved.
Just because one MMO has an insanely elite loot system doesn't mean that they all should.
Some of us play CoX as a "relaxing" break away from games like WoW.
[ QUOTE ]
If the goal is to get people to PvP the rarity needs to be not so rare to make people not want to bother and not so common as to make them pointless.
I think they would probably be best served to have more PvP sets where we have rare ones and very good uncommon ones which would entice people to want to PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
That firt point has been thrown around plenty, but your suggestion here is actually a pretty good idea! I hadn't thought of it, but it makes perfect sense. You can double the amount of recipes, double the drop rate and still have the same effective drop rate on the rare ones. In fact, they could probably 1.5x the drop rate and effectively LOWER it and people wouldn't care because they're still getting SOME kind of cool drop more often. I like it!
I suggest you drop that idea over in the suggestion forum. I'd /sign it.