TL;DR version - you don't understand the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.
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But until that time the current crop of pvp IO's are the ONLY meaningful pvp rewards, and as far as we know the only ones coming. So putting them on a drop rate where engaging in active pvp does not reward them totally defeats their purpose.
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No, the ONLY meaningful PvPing reward is the actual PvPing itself. The thrill, the rush, the tactics of facing against real enemies, not drones waiting to be herded like cattle. There were PvPers before any PvP IOs were introduced. The loot concept is strictly a PvE ideal. It's why PvP-oriented games like Guild Wars de-emphasized loot and concentrated on builds and skill.
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This is just flat out untrue. Have you played Guildwars? Powers in that game are more like loot here. They are so desirable they offer the ability to BUY them with real money (along with pvp items).
*That would be like the option to buy a lvl 50 with full pvp IO's (and maybe purples) here. Would that be good or bad for pvp in Cox?
PvP'ing for the sake of pvp'ing is NOT reward enough evidently. Are you new to this game or other MMOrpg's? PvP for the sake of pvp was in this game for 10? issues and it didn't take off. And that was when it was actually a FUN system to use.
By your faulty logic we could just as easily claim that pve'ers pve for the sake of pve and rewards provide little to no driving force.
That would be pretty asinine though I think.
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Don't bother PvPing if you're going to PvP with a PvE mentality. If you actually wanted to PvP, you would try to be good first before even thinking about any loot you "deserved" for your effort. The learning curve and the reward curve is much, much steeper in PvP than in PvE.
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See, I did pvp a lot in this game, probably far more than you and quite frankly I put in the hours to get very good. This whole block of text I just quoted is just flat out ridiculous. It is inherently exclusive and implementing massive barriers to entry.
That was the perceived problem with old pvp. It didn't do very well numbers wise did it?
Don't bother unless you are already good? Ya that is a recipe to success.
Zone pvp is intended to be like a pick-up game of softball. If I stood there and started demanding to know how fast someone runs the 40' or how fast they can throw a ball, how high they can jump... and if they didn't meet my criteria I tell them to talk a walk??? Please, get over yourself.
There is a place for such demanding play, it is called organized arena pvp, where the pro's play.
What part of your brain is telling you that video game users subscribe to the belief that they need to practice for hours before they are entitled to some sort of tangible reward? It can't be the part that is grounded in reality.
I mean jeez, even in game tutorials HAVE to offer a tangible reward to be successful. But here you are saying people should practice for hours just cause they should. /e boggle.
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*I'll say this upfront, you'll have a heck of a time convincing me and most people (other than the dev's apparently) that something that is failing the purpose that it was intended is working as intended, or at the very least, not requiring attention.
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So you're saying the devs intended to have a bunch of wannabe-PvPers in the zones in search of loot?
If you were even an ioata of a PvPer, your effort would be on why PvPing itself is failing to be fun, not what loot you're unable to get.
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Not at all, the intention behind pvp rewards is to add incentive to TRY the activity in the first place and then reward continued participation. If they drop at a rate that most people will never get one, they fail at what they are designed to do.
Please stop attacking my integrity as a pvp'er. If you insist I'll go to the arena and wipe the floor with you. I've spent more time making suggestions of how to improve pvp in this game than you have probably spent pvp'ing.
Not everyone is intrinsically motivated. In fact most people are more driven by extrinsic factors (especially in video games where they are offered). Pvp'ing for the "fun" of it just isn't enough to drive many people. That isn't a bad thing, it just is. For MANY people, being extrinsically motivated IS fun.
Offer $50 bucks at the end of the day to whoever completes the most widgets and they suddenly start working harder than if you said "work harder because you enjoy being productive".
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It also doesn't really matter that they are on (or near) purple level IN pvp, DR takes care of that to ensure that makes little difference. The only meaningful benefit they bring is the ability to exempt down to lower pvp zones, which while good hardly warrants their current (and soon to be even rarer) status. That just doesn't carry the same meaning it does in pve.
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This is assuming that a player has hit DR for everything. These PvP IOs make a huge difference if someone hasn't hit DR yet. Even with DR, these still provide boosts in stats that are not normally found in any other set IOs.
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You don't understand how DR works.
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As a pvp reward they have failed - almost completely. It is time to set aside the preconceived notions of how they should be relative to pve counterparts. Shoehorning them into a specific criteria is why they have failed. It is why they will continue to fail, and why they will always fail until those incorrect beliefs are abandoned.
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It's really simple. If these are not worth their value in PvE, then don't get them for PvE use. If you're not going to put in a full-fledged effort to getting to the top of PvP, then just stay in your PvE realm and pretend these never existed. They're not for you.
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I like your exclusive attitude. You're 100% wrong, but I like it 
For at least 15 years now it has been common knowledge that when designing a "loot" system you don't start by adding ONLY the most exclusive and hard to attain rewards. Otherwise they are meaningless to the vast majority of your users (jee that sounds familiar) and they don't function as an extrinsic motivator (carrot on a stick if you will).
How successful would IO's be in pve if they had only introduced purples? No crushing impacts, no ruins, etc. Just purples. Think it woudl take off, or fall on its face?
You can only implement such exclusive loot once you have also implemented a reward system for the "commoner". For a loot system to function it works off of the principle of progressive motivation. You get a taste and you want more, you get more and you want something better. Loot systems have a lot in common with the theory of "gateway" drugs. Make no mistake that loot is very addictive too lol, it drives an entire (highly successful) segment of the gaming market (ie hack n slash).
Anyway, currently (and as far as we know) the current batch of PvP IO's are all we have. If they drop like purples, they fail as a pvp reward. If that means they have to adjust the drop tables so some of the highly desirable ones drop less relative to the group then so be it. But pvp IO's as a whole are failing due to their excessively low drop rate. They are not performing the purpose they are intended.
In a perfect world where they implemented common pvp IO's and lesser pvp IO sets, then ya the current batch of PO's could retain their ridiculously low drop rate. But they haven't, and probably have no intention of making a full-fledged pvp reward system.
If next issue includes such a system, then great. But my magic 8 ball varies between "Reply hazy, try again" and "Outlook not so good". That still does nothing to change the fact that they implemented it backwards even if they do fix it.
If the choice is between a completely failed system and one that isn't. I think the choice is pretty clear.
There is really nothing further to discuss on the matter.
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1 - PvP is tacked on in this game and it will never be good.
That's a big statement, but I think we all know it's true. You have to balance the game for PvP to make it good and they will not do that because it would break PvE.
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I disagree.
It's never going to be ideal, but I think it has the potential to be fun.
r/e balancing, the 'break' with past orthodoxy that powers should do the same thing in pvp and pve is a positive step.
If they approach is at "things work this way in PvE but this way in PvP" they can make it a lot more balanced without worrying about enraging and alienating their bread and butter constituency of PvE players.
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2 - Therefore they won't be drawing in any new PvPers based on the quality of that part of the game.
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I don't agree with your first point, so for me the second point doesn't follow.
If they keep putting energy into PvP they certainly can draw more players and have it be a fun, vibrant subculture within the larger game.
Rewards are key to getting new blood in the zones, but balanced, fun gameplay is what will keep them there. Hopefully at some point we'll get both.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Seems like the EASY answer is to have PVP drops in PvE. Then when I get them I'll be more interested in using them. Easier PVP drops = more people considering PVP'ing.
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1 - PvP is tacked on in this game and it will never be good.
That's a big statement, but I think we all know it's true. You have to balance the game for PvP to make it good and they will not do that because it would break PvE.
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I disagree.
It's never going to be ideal, but I think it has the potential to be fun.
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I may have a different perspective, having played Eve Online for a few years before coming here. That's serious PvP. I tried PVP in many other games and it's abundantly clear that the most fun PvP comes from good balance (ie. you can play whatever you want as long as you play it well!)
Yeah, obviously the goal is to get people having fun, but the way to really do that correctly is to have GOOD PvP. Losing over and over again with no hope of winning isn't fun. Balance it out and suddenly even noobs can take out ubers if they work together and know what they're doing. (To draw a parallel from Eve, 5 frigates properly fit and coordinated can take out any single battleship. Every ship fitting has a counter-fitting, every strength has a weakness and it's impossible to build a ship with no weaknesses!) That's fun and that's what will keep people playing, ALONG WITH rewards like pvp drops. PvP drops on their own won't get people PvPing, just farming drops (as has been proven out).
tl;dr version - Good pvp = fun pvp. Make it good, they will come.
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Seems like the EASY answer is to have PVP drops in PvE. Then when I get them I'll be more interested in using them. Easier PVP drops = more people considering PVP'ing.
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That doesn't work because maybe you will, maybe you won't. As long as the PvP IOs are tied to PvP, they will work as a motivator. The minute you make them accessible in another way, you remove that motivation to PvP.
If they are to be an incentive to PvP, they need to be desired, which means rare. The whole point is that you need to give PvP a good try before you get any significant amount of them. Making the drop rates too high means that they will be farmed, and that some people will play just long enough to get what they want, and then leave. In order to KEEP people playing PvP, the rewards have to be rare, and good enough that people will put the work into getting them.
Players have shown over and over that if the reward is good enough, they'll do things they don't enjoy. And they'll do them for exactly as long as they have to. Without making PvP a fun, enjoyable experience to begin with, PvP IO's treat the symptom (not enough people play PvP) without dealing with the underlying cause (not enough people enjoy PvP to participate in it.)
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
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So is THAT what I should expect from my light hearted Hero based MMO I started with my 8-year old son in January?
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Uhm. Yes? Expecting some of the newest rarest items in the game to be cheap and plentiful, especially when the community of people that could regularly earn them are so small is somewhat naive.
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*looks for the unsubscribe box*
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Not to be too blunt, but...
Can
I
Have
Your
Stuff?
You're one of roughly ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND subscribers to this game. Some of whom have been playing in excess of five YEARS.
If you're quitting simply because something that's INTENDED to be ultra-rare, and likely only owned by very HARDCORE players (or prolific zealous PvPers) isn't available cheaply and readily to a casual player? Well. don't let the door hit your donkey on the way out. And don't mind too much as the words "selfish" and "unrealistic" get tossed about.
I'd like to say I'm sorry for being so harsh. But I'm not. I dislike doing it, but sometimes it's necessary.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I may have a different perspective, having played Eve Online for a few years before coming here. That's serious PvP. I tried PVP in many other games and it's abundantly clear that the most fun PvP comes from good balance (ie. you can play whatever you want as long as you play it well!)
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We're absolutely coming at this from different perspectives.
When I want PvP I fire up an FPS shooter- BF2142 & CoD4 are my currently loaded games.
So in an MMO, I'm just looking for a fun diversion, not a hardcore experience.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I may have a different perspective, having played Eve Online for a few years before coming here. That's serious PvP. I tried PVP in many other games and it's abundantly clear that the most fun PvP comes from good balance (ie. you can play whatever you want as long as you play it well!)
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We're absolutely coming at this from different perspectives.
When I want PvP I fire up an FPS shooter- BF2142 & CoD4 are my currently loaded games.
So in an MMO, I'm just looking for a fun diversion, not a hardcore experience.
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Yeah, FPS's are much easier to balance than MMOS's because they amount of options available to you are orders of magnitude smaller. TF2, for example, is an amazingly balanced game, to the point that even I (someone who doesn't really like FPS's in general) like playing it. When they added in the updates with more weapons and maps, they made sure to do it very slowly so that they don't destroy the balance.
If an MMO isn't designed from the start with PvP balance in mind, the PvP is gonna suck. Play any game with tacked on PvP (*ahem* CoX) and you'll see what I mean. Balancing for PvP usually does funny things to PvE and, since the game to that point has been PvE-centric, they risk losing their established customers by messing with PvE balance.
So back to my original point, if they want more people to try PvP, but the PvP isn't fun, they need to make the rewards worth it. Having good rewards but making them unobtainable isn't gonna help anything.
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Seems like the EASY answer is to have PVP drops in PvE. Then when I get them I'll be more interested in using them. Easier PVP drops = more people considering PVP'ing.
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That doesn't work because maybe you will, maybe you won't. As long as the PvP IOs are tied to PvP, they will work as a motivator. The minute you make them accessible in another way, you remove that motivation to PvP.
If they are to be an incentive to PvP, they need to be desired, which means rare. The whole point is that you need to give PvP a good try before you get any significant amount of them. Making the drop rates too high means that they will be farmed, and that some people will play just long enough to get what they want, and then leave. In order to KEEP people playing PvP, the rewards have to be rare, and good enough that people will put the work into getting them.
Players have shown over and over that if the reward is good enough, they'll do things they don't enjoy. And they'll do them for exactly as long as they have to. Without making PvP a fun, enjoyable experience to begin with, PvP IO's treat the symptom (not enough people play PvP) without dealing with the underlying cause (not enough people enjoy PvP to participate in it.)
[/ QUOTE ] Well put ... +1 Forum point to you sir for a good reply.
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I may have a different perspective, having played Eve Online for a few years before coming here. That's serious PvP. I tried PVP in many other games and it's abundantly clear that the most fun PvP comes from good balance (ie. you can play whatever you want as long as you play it well!)
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We're absolutely coming at this from different perspectives.
When I want PvP I fire up an FPS shooter- BF2142 & CoD4 are my currently loaded games.
So in an MMO, I'm just looking for a fun diversion, not a hardcore experience.
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Not to toot my own horn goat but I will murder you senseless in CoD:MW .... Take it as a challenge when MW2 comes out. I'm going to drag your bullet ridden goat carcas all over Rio ... if your up for it... 
Signed Looooooooong time CoD player (I used to write mods for it)
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TL;DR version - you don't understand the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.
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I'll break it down so that you can even understand. Real PvPers rely on intrinsic motivation. In all sorts of PvP formats (FPS, RTS, and even RPG), the desire to face against real competition, the fights, the drive to be the best is the ultimate motivator. Luring fake PvPers with extrinsic motivation will just result in bunches of wannabes running around going "where's mah lewt!" That does nothing to improve the actual PvP gameplay.
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This is just flat out untrue. Have you played Guildwars? Powers in that game are more like loot here. They are so desirable they offer the ability to BUY them with real money (along with pvp items).
*That would be like the option to buy a lvl 50 with full pvp IO's (and maybe purples) here. Would that be good or bad for pvp in Cox?
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Yes, I played GW for quite some time. Unlocking of the powers there is much easier than what you make it out to be. The differences in real loot in GW are so small that they don't make nearly as much difference as here. In addition, once you unlock loot, you can apply it to as many of your PvP chars as you like.
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PvP'ing for the sake of pvp'ing is NOT reward enough evidently. Are you new to this game or other MMOrpg's? PvP for the sake of pvp was in this game for 10? issues and it didn't take off. And that was when it was actually a FUN system to use.
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It was enough reward for the real PvPers. Lets go back to Guild Wars for a moment. You don't get any significant loot from PvPing & GvGing there. In fact, any mention of introducing uber, unbalancing loot met with huge uproar from the PvP community. Loot is and will never be the focus of true PvPing.
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By your faulty logic we could just as easily claim that pve'ers pve for the sake of pve and rewards provide little to no driving force.
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As I've been stating all along, PvE mindset is very different than PvP. What drives PvErs and what drives PvPers are completely different. That's why the goal should have been to convert PvErs into a PvP mindset.
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See, I did pvp a lot in this game, probably far more than you and quite frankly I put in the hours to get very good. This whole block of text I just quoted is just flat out ridiculous. It is inherently exclusive and implementing massive barriers to entry.
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Your assumptions are wrong. Try again.
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Don't bother unless you are already good? Ya that is a recipe to success.
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No, it means get good first, then worry about the loot second. It means having thick skin, asking questions, observing, reading the forums. It doesn't mean don't bother, unless the ONLY reason for someone is loot, then yes don't bother.
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What part of your brain is telling you that video game users subscribe to the belief that they need to practice for hours before they are entitled to some sort of tangible reward? It can't be the part that is grounded in reality.
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PvPing is THE tangible reward for PvPers. Let's put it this way. If a player isn't having fun from actually doing the things required to get rewards, then it's not really for them. If learning to be good at PvP is considered "worK" and can only be properly rewarded with PvP IOs, then it's not really for them.
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Please stop attacking my integrity as a pvp'er. If you insist I'll go to the arena and wipe the floor with you. I've spent more time making suggestions of how to improve pvp in this game than you have probably spent pvp'ing.
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Ya, I highly doubt that you'll wipe the floor with anyone, so that has no impact on me. I'll continue to question you, since you seem to be approaching things solely from a PvEr perspective who just wants this new shiny for PvE.
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Not everyone is intrinsically motivated. In fact most people are more driven by extrinsic factors (especially in video games where they are offered). Pvp'ing for the "fun" of it just isn't enough to drive many people. That isn't a bad thing, it just is. For MANY people, being extrinsically motivated IS fun.
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Then, those type of people are not needed in PvP.
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You don't understand how DR works.
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Ya, actually I do.
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TL;DR version - you don't understand the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.
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I'll break it down so that you can even understand. Real PvPers rely on intrinsic motivation. In all sorts of PvP formats (FPS, RTS, and even RPG), the desire to face against real competition, the fights, the drive to be the best is the ultimate motivator. Luring fake PvPers with extrinsic motivation will just result in bunches of wannabes running around going "where's mah lewt!" That does nothing to improve the actual PvP gameplay.
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This is just flat out untrue. Have you played Guildwars? Powers in that game are more like loot here. They are so desirable they offer the ability to BUY them with real money (along with pvp items).
*That would be like the option to buy a lvl 50 with full pvp IO's (and maybe purples) here. Would that be good or bad for pvp in Cox?
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Yes, I played GW for quite some time. Unlocking of the powers there is much easier than what you make it out to be. The differences in real loot in GW are so small that they don't make nearly as much difference as here. In addition, once you unlock loot, you can apply it to as many of your PvP chars as you like.
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PvP'ing for the sake of pvp'ing is NOT reward enough evidently. Are you new to this game or other MMOrpg's? PvP for the sake of pvp was in this game for 10? issues and it didn't take off. And that was when it was actually a FUN system to use.
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It was enough reward for the real PvPers. Lets go back to Guild Wars for a moment. You don't get any significant loot from PvPing & GvGing there. In fact, any mention of introducing uber, unbalancing loot met with huge uproar from the PvP community. Loot is and will never be the focus of true PvPing.
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By your faulty logic we could just as easily claim that pve'ers pve for the sake of pve and rewards provide little to no driving force.
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As I've been stating all along, PvE mindset is very different than PvP. What drives PvErs and what drives PvPers are completely different. That's why the goal should have been to convert PvErs into a PvP mindset.
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See, I did pvp a lot in this game, probably far more than you and quite frankly I put in the hours to get very good. This whole block of text I just quoted is just flat out ridiculous. It is inherently exclusive and implementing massive barriers to entry.
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Your assumptions are wrong. Try again.
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Don't bother unless you are already good? Ya that is a recipe to success.
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No, it means get good first, then worry about the loot second. It means having thick skin, asking questions, observing, reading the forums. It doesn't mean don't bother, unless the ONLY reason for someone is loot, then yes don't bother.
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What part of your brain is telling you that video game users subscribe to the belief that they need to practice for hours before they are entitled to some sort of tangible reward? It can't be the part that is grounded in reality.
[/ QUOTE ]
PvPing is THE tangible reward for PvPers. Let's put it this way. If a player isn't having fun from actually doing the things required to get rewards, then it's not really for them. If learning to be good at PvP is considered "worK" and can only be properly rewarded with PvP IOs, then it's not really for them.
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Please stop attacking my integrity as a pvp'er. If you insist I'll go to the arena and wipe the floor with you. I've spent more time making suggestions of how to improve pvp in this game than you have probably spent pvp'ing.
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Ya, I highly doubt that you'll wipe the floor with anyone, so that has no impact on me. I'll continue to question you, since you seem to be approaching things solely from a PvEr perspective who just wants this new shiny for PvE.
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Not everyone is intrinsically motivated. In fact most people are more driven by extrinsic factors (especially in video games where they are offered). Pvp'ing for the "fun" of it just isn't enough to drive many people. That isn't a bad thing, it just is. For MANY people, being extrinsically motivated IS fun.
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Then, those type of people are not needed in PvP.
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You don't understand how DR works.
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Ya, actually I do.
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I'd point out, that one of the biggest pvp crowds I know of in an MMO is World of Warcraft, wherein the "best" pvpers are the ones who are most motivated, sure. but also the best geared, best specced and overall most tricked out in phat lewt. And they liberally bash anyone without that lewt as a failure at pvp
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
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Not to toot my own horn goat but I will murder you senseless in CoD:MW .... Take it as a challenge when MW2 comes out. I'm going to drag your bullet ridden goat carcas all over Rio ... if your up for it...
Signed Looooooooong time CoD player (I used to write mods for it)
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I don't doubt it.
I'm merely average at FPS's- I was too old when I started playing for all that fast-twitch stuff to get hard-wired. I get by on craftiness and guile and backing up my teammates, not my l337 skills.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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TL;DR version - you don't understand the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll break it down so that you can even understand. Real PvPers rely on intrinsic motivation. In all sorts of PvP formats (FPS, RTS, and even RPG), the desire to face against real competition, the fights, the drive to be the best is the ultimate motivator. Luring fake PvPers with extrinsic motivation will just result in bunches of wannabes running around going "where's mah lewt!" That does nothing to improve the actual PvP gameplay.
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I would like to challenge you, as an exercise, to try and think of three ways this could actually improve PvP gameplay. Short or Longterm, immediate or delayed gratification, whatever comes to mind just go for it!
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I would like to challenge you, as an exercise, to try and think of three ways this could actually improve PvP gameplay. Short or Longterm, immediate or delayed gratification, whatever comes to mind just go for it!
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The bottom line is PvP is not going to last if it just ends up as a bunch of PvErs going after PvP IOs for PvEing. Making PvP actually last is to make the process fun, not another farming mechanism for PvErs. They might as well just scrap PvP altogether at that point and turn the PvP zones into co-op PvE zones.
The goal would be for PvErs to take on the mentality of PvPers and say "hey, kicking that guy's [censored] is fun!" or at the very least "hey, I died, but at least I took a chunk of him with me!" The priorities are completely different. The only reason drops are needed is if PvPing is considered "work" rather than fun and that's not going to last. If people are having fun killing each other, the loot becomes an afterthought.
IMO, this complaining isn't an attempt by PvErs to try and improve the actual PvP gameplay. How many of them really ever possibly cared about PvP. They just cared only about the loot. It just seems like one big disguise.
i think the devs stopped with the" you dont HAVE to use i.o's "and stil be effective statement
i think they realize now thats not true at all...issue i have is..they clearly arent balancing that way. in fact their not even close to making it ok for casual's to make it in this entire game let alone in pvp.
maybe someday the devs will understand what their doing..but i think its time for a few devs changes again..their way to into themselves and not the game.
hopefully they straighten up.. their only a month away from losing people. and frankly we have nothing on the horizen to keep people here.
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Please stop attacking my integrity as a pvp'er. If you insist I'll go to the arena and wipe the floor with you. I've spent more time making suggestions of how to improve pvp in this game than you have probably spent pvp'ing.
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Ya, I highly doubt that you'll wipe the floor with anyone, so that has no impact on me. I'll continue to question you, since you seem to be approaching things solely from a PvEr perspective who just wants this new shiny for PvE.
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Your right poopy, Frost wouldn't just wipe the floor with you, you would be traumatized
(Sounds like an arguement that never ends, becuase one party just.... doesn't.... get... it....)
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(Sounds like an arguement that never ends, becuase one party just.... doesn't.... get... it....)
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That's why I put one party on ignore like 3 days ago....
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(Sounds like an arguement that never ends, becuase one party just.... doesn't.... get... it....)
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That's why I put one party on ignore like 3 days ago....
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I normally have the mental restraint to do this without hitting the ignore button.
I don't like missing parts of conversations, even if they have a profound lack of logic, however, having poopy? attack Frost's pvp cred, first, made me fall over laughing, then made me respond
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(Sounds like an arguement that never ends, becuase one party just.... doesn't.... get... it....)
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That's why I put one party on ignore like 3 days ago....
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I normally have the mental restraint to do this without hitting the ignore button.
I don't like missing parts of conversations, even if they have a profound lack of logic, however, having poopy? attack Frost's pvp cred, first, made me fall over laughing, then made me respond
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Don't worry, you'll see all the parts worth reading in the quoted replies anyways. There's just something about seeing something so incredibly wrong that makes me want to reply. When they're ignored, someone else replies and saves me the embarrassment of feeding the tr...iple chocolate ice cream!
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OMG TRANSFORMERS IS AWESUM!
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Don't worry, you'll see all the parts worth reading in the quoted replies anyways.
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QFT
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When they're ignored, someone else replies and saves me the embarrassment of feeding the tr...iple chocolate ice cream!
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QFT
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Your right poopy, Frost wouldn't just wipe the floor with you, you would be traumatized
(Sounds like an arguement that never ends, becuase one party just.... doesn't.... get... it....)
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We haven't PvPed each other, so how would you know? Alright, so now that's out of the way, the ability to wipe other other on the floor is irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
I've clearly and logically laid out my points. If you want to blindly choose sides, go ahead.
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Your right poopy, Frost wouldn't just wipe the floor with you, you would be traumatized
(Sounds like an arguement that never ends, becuase one party just.... doesn't.... get... it....)
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We haven't PvPed each other, so how would you know? Alright, so now that's out of the way, the ability the wipe other other on the floor is irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
I've clearly and logically laid out my points. If you want to blindly choose sides, go ahead.
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1. Any1 who can even infer that frost isn't a good pvper can't be very good him/herself
2. I've read your points, they just don't make any sense from any type of view except certain extremist views of Rewards
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1. Any1 who can even infer that frost isn't a good pvper can't be very good him/herself
2. I've read your points, they just don't make any sense from any type of view except certain extremist views of Rewards
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1. I never inferred frost's PvP ability. It was frost that inferred my PvP ability in relation to his PvP ability.
2. The points make crystal clear sense from a non-PvE perspective. You seem to think PvP somehow should work like PvE, but it doesn't.
1 - PvP is tacked on in this game and it will never be good.
That's a big statement, but I think we all know it's true. You have to balance the game for PvP to make it good and they will not do that because it would break PvE.
2 - Therefore they won't be drawing in any new PvPers based on the quality of that part of the game.
Let's face it, if the pvp is bad, why do it? Especially if you're a PvE player. You want to go in, check it out, see how fun it is and discover it's not fun. Never do it again. Hardcore pvpers? They'll take what they can get because gimping themselves in a bad game is part of the challenge/fun.
3 - THEREFORE, if the devs want PvE'ers in PvP zones (for whatever reason, I don't know) the need to incent them with something they understand...PvE-style rewards.
Those rewards aren't for the PvPers. They're for the PvE'ers. It doesn't matter if a PvPer thinks the drop rate is fine because they don't care about them in the same way a PvE'er does. It's PvE'ers whose opinions count here. If we say the drop rate is too low and we're not gonna bother trying, they're not serving their intended purpose.