[ QUOTE ]
1. I never inferred frost's PvP ability. It was frost that inferred my PvP ability in relation to his PvP ability.
[/ QUOTE ]
K, slightly true, slightly not, you made assumptions that he didn't pvp the same way you made them about me.
[ QUOTE ]
If you were even an ioata of a PvPer, your effort would be on why PvPing itself is failing to be fun, not what loot you're unable to get.
[/ QUOTE ]
klol
[ QUOTE ]
2. The points make crystal clear sense from a non-PvE perspective. You seem to think PvP somehow should work like PvE, but it doesn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're talking to a person who has pvped from the get-go, continues to pvp almost die-heartly and is very VERY numerically based, i work on what the numbers show.
I've gone for HOURS, more specifically, 0-227 rep in RV on freedom, on a 3 man team, none got pvp drops, and this was BEFORE the changes, you *CAN NOT* tell me that pvp drops needed anything in the remote REGION of a nerf, if anything, they needed a buff.
Kthx.
poopy, can I ask you a serious question here?
You've spent a ton of posts ranting that rewards are not in any way the reason a PvP player plays, and how loot is never the focus of 'true' PvPing, and how PvE-ers farming drops will be the death knell of PvP.
Given all that, I can't even begin to understand why you're opposed to these drop rates being wildly increased in frequency, or heck, even being made ultra common. Making them super common would get the farmers out of the zone much more quickly,since they'd get the drops and be done with it, and wouldn't have to bother the 'real' pvpers again.
FURTHERMORE, since PvPers, by your own admission, don't care about loot, and only about the fight itself, and, how the loot should never be the focus of 'true' PvP, they should be outright celebrating a change that would make the drops ultra common - it would make having the loot irrelevant (since everyone could easily get it, putting them on even footing), and, since you'd be getting them constantly, it would even further emphasize that the fight isn't about the loot rewards, but rather about the fight itself, since getting one wouldn't be at all special.
The fact that making them very common would drive their price to next to nothing would also drive home that PvP would be about the fight rather than the reward - since there'd be no incentive for PvE-ers to farm them at that point, leaving the zones only for PvPers by and large.
So my question is: Given that increasing the drop rate and accessibility of these drops helps every single one of your points, why are you arguing for the exact opposite to happen?
[ QUOTE ]
I've gone for HOURS, more specifically, 0-227 rep in RV on freedom, on a 3 man team, none got pvp drops, and this was BEFORE the changes, you *CAN NOT* tell me that pvp drops needed anything in the remote REGION of a nerf, if anything, they needed a buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
o right....so what was keeping you there before PvP IOs? The PvP is still the same.
I'll give a timeline of what happened.
1. PvP IOs were introduced and had a measely impact to get PvErs to step in the zone in the first place. In the weeks after, I saw maybe ... maybe a few new faces in RV. It was basically the same people in RV night in and night out, regardless of the new shiny. If the underlying PvP *still* sucks and pushes away people, it basically trumps anything else that can be offered.
2. PvErs discovered arena farms or BB entrance farms or w/e else farming is going on. This opened up another avenue for PvErs to get access to PvP IOs without ever having step foot in a PvP zone, which is what they did. PvP never existed to them before and after PvP IOs.
3. Nerf hammer comes. Now it'll be infinitely more difficult for PvErs to get the new PvP shiny to equip in their PvE toons. These were probably the same people who didn't care about PvP and never would. The original PvP IO drop rate didn't do a damn thing. PvP IOs were just another shiny to acquire.
In the end, PvP will still be borked (or not borked, depending on your views). PvP IO drop rates would mostly just impact PvErs. How many ppl with PvP IOs actually PvPed.
[ QUOTE ]
So my question is: Given that increasing the drop rate and accessibility of these drops helps every single one of your points, why are you arguing for the exact opposite to happen?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because helping PvErs to PvE doesn't help improve the PvP conditions in any shape or form, which was the original purpose.
By your own admission the PvP IO system does nothing whatsoever for PvP and only encourages PvE 'wannabes' to enter the zone and cause problems, so I fail to see how fixing at least one of those two problems by removing the PvE 'wannabes' from the equation doesn't improve PvP for you.
You're being intellectually dishonest. You argue that the PvP loot should be uber, rare and powerful, but then in the same breath say that loot is not the point of PvPing, and that people who come primarily to get that loot are ruining the PvP experience.
You can't have it both ways. Either the loot is rare and people will come to harvest the valuable commodity and 'bring pve into pvp', or, they're common and there's no incentive to go after them, removing the pve-ers only after loot from the pvp situation. You contradict yourself saying PvE mentality ruins PvP, and then are against a change that makes the PvE mentality unappealing in a PvP zone.
[ QUOTE ]
Because helping PvErs to PvE doesn't help improve the PvP conditions in any shape or form, which was the purpose.
[/ QUOTE ]
some players in a pvp zone > empty zone
you seem to be of those weird Purity Police types who doesn't want anyone playing the game unless they can meet your exacting standards.
I'll explain how things work, since you can't seem to grasp it.
You have a sub-game that is underutilized and you want more people to use it.
You add incentives to entice the vast majority of your playerbase, who don't really care if the sub-game lives or dies.
if the incentives work, then new blood will try the sub game.
of these new players, some will LIKE the sub game and stick around.
So incentives that draw ideologically impure PvE losers to PvP help PvP become more viable.
The basic concept is a standard tactic in any capitalist society.
Do you live in Cuba, perchance?
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I don't know guys, but i tink he just doesn't get it, when both PvE'rs and pvpers agree on something, its DOOOOM!!!! but when they both agree on said thing and he disagrees, its kinda lol@him
[ QUOTE ]
By your own admission the PvP IO system does nothing whatsoever for PvP and only encourages PvE 'wannabes' to enter the zone and cause problems, so I fail to see how fixing at least one of those two problems by removing the PvE 'wannabes' from the equation doesn't improve PvP for you.
You're being intellectually dishonest. You argue that the PvP loot should be uber, rare and powerful, but then in the same breath say that loot is not the point of PvPing, and that people who come primarily to get that loot are ruining the PvP experience.
You can't have it both ways. Either the loot is rare and people will come to harvest the valuable commodity and 'bring pve into pvp', or, they're common and there's no incentive to go after them, removing the pve-ers only after loot from the pvp situation. You contradict yourself saying PvE mentality ruins PvP, and then are against a change that makes the PvE mentality unappealing in a PvP zone.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not making that point at all. My point is that having PvP-wannabes thinking of the zone as another PvE farm zone doesn't count as "fixing" PvP at all. In other words, PvP IOs, even at early drop rates, didn't meet the criteria for fixing PvP and they never would. PvP IOs were the wrong approach by the devs to begin with. Now that they're out, it's kinda hard to take them back. Hence, why I think the best compromise would be to introduce crappier PvP IOs that drop more often.
Barring that, PvP IOs weren't meant for PvErs who would never cared for PvP. If PvErs want PvP IOs without doing PvP, then they should be at the complete mercy of those who do. They were suppose to be a nice secondary reward for PvPers who you know...actually PvPed, but got absolutely butchered by PvErs who wanted things that weren't for them.
People who found PvPing fun will still find it fun. People who don't find PvPing fun still won't. That basic premise is still there. Now, it boils down to is should PvErs have PvP IOs.
Poopy, if you miss this, i want you to get glasses
THEY AREN'T TRYING TO FIX PVP
They made changes in I13-15 to make the pvp for carebears, now they have to GET these carebears to TRY the new pvp, now the carebears will hate it and go away, and yes prolly farm pvp ios, but who really cares?
THis is the same [censored] as pvp badge
"ZOMG THEY KNAT FRAM TEH PVP BADJE TEHY MUST EARN IT!!!"
/e facepalm
[ QUOTE ]
You add incentives to entice the vast majority of your playerbase, who don't really care if the sub-game lives or dies.
if the incentives work, then new blood will try the sub game.
of these new players, some will LIKE the sub game and stick around.
So incentives that draw ideologically impure PvE losers to PvP help PvP become more viable.
The basic concept is a standard tactic in any capitalist society.
Do you live in Cuba, perchance?
[/ QUOTE ]
But it doesn't in practice now does it? In practice, PvErs were able to get their hands on PvP IOs without even PvPing. Then, there's no point from a PvP perspective if that happens. Hardly any new people showed up. PvErs may be happy with their new shiny, but PvP itself will still be under utilized and have messed up mechanics. Why bother helping PvErs who were never going to PvP anyways. Increasing drop rates will just mean more supply on WW for PvEs to buy, while still completely ignoring PvP.
Btw, I'm pretty sure if someone has even an ounce of interest in PvPing, they would've at least tried it out to find out for themselves, w/o the need of some external reward. Face it, this is really just PvErs wanting more loot.
I think this is honestly the first time anyone has referred to me as a pve'er.
I guess I can't complain, I really haven't been pvp'ing much since i13. It's not that I can't still do well, it just isn't very fun for me. It fails to intrinsically motivate me and the way the current drops are I'm not extrinsically motivated either.
I do agree though, hardcore pvp'ers pvp because they love it. That's why I did it across numerous games now, but I'm not so naive that I believe there is enough of that mentality here to have a healthy pvp system.
You must be new around here (I was ignoring reg date) because pvp rewards has been a LONG standing request from the active pvp crowd (most of which left in i13). They might be put in place to lure pveers in and convert them to pvpers (we all had to pve at some point before we could even enter a pvp zone, unless all you do is lvl 1 arena, hey repel ball was hella fun). Or they might be put in place to.. you know.. reward pvp. I believe they went for two birds with one stone, but have failed.
When they revamped pvp to be more newb friendly and then advertised pvp rewards, but then make the rewards only achievable for hardcore players (or farming) I just don't see how anyone can add 1+1+1 and get the answer you keep trying to push.
I do find it ironic being told I'm looking at this from the view of a pve'er, when I was the one who originally stated (when they first came out) that you shouldn't even be able to trade PO's or sell them on the market. I said the ONLY way to get them should be through pvp'ing and excess ones you earn could be cashed in for merits/recipe rolls, or for pvp "tickets" that can be stockpiled and redeemed for PO recipe rolls.
I was the guy saying: "pvp recipes, for pvp'ers, earned by pvp'ing and used for pvp"
Tbh I still think the only way a pvp loot system could work properly in this game is for the items to be soulbound (but able to be cashed in as mentioned if you don't need it). Thats because I personally think it should have nothing to do with pveers.
The way they are now they aren't a "reward" for pvp'ing to be used for pvp, they are more like compensation for time spent because not selling them is generally crazy.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You add incentives to entice the vast majority of your playerbase, who don't really care if the sub-game lives or dies.
if the incentives work, then new blood will try the sub game.
of these new players, some will LIKE the sub game and stick around.
So incentives that draw ideologically impure PvE losers to PvP help PvP become more viable.
The basic concept is a standard tactic in any capitalist society.
Do you live in Cuba, perchance?
[/ QUOTE ]
But it doesn't in practice now does it? In practice, PvErs were able to get their hands on PvP IOs without even PvPing. Then, there's no point from a PvP perspective if that happens. Hardly any new people showed up. PvErs may be happy with their new shiny, but PvP itself will still be under utilized and have messed up mechanics. Why bother helping PvErs who were never going to PvP anyways. Increasing drop rates will just mean more supply on WW for PvEs to buy, while still completely ignoring PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have, single handedly, made me chug a bottle of asprin
By your logic i could very well say "North Dakota is a myth"
(No really, its a myth)
So I guess my question to you is:
If hardcore pvpers pvp for intrinsic reasons, then why create a reward system that only they (and farmers) benefit from?
Wouldnt it make more sense to create a system that has the potential to convert curious/non-hardcores into true pvpers, while ALSO rewarding existing pvpers (hardcore or w/e)?
[ QUOTE ]
I was the guy saying: "pvp recipes, for pvp'ers, earned by pvp'ing and used for pvp"
[/ QUOTE ]
You know what..these suggestions I do agree with or untradeable PvP merits of some kind.
[ QUOTE ]
I do agree though, hardcore pvp'ers pvp because they love it. That's why I did it across numerous games now, but I'm not so naive that I believe there is enough of that mentality here to have a healthy pvp system.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is where I have the biggest problem. PvP is still going to suck even if there's an influx of PvErs in the zone. Just having a mass of bodies won't help PvP at all. PvP is only fun with actual PvPers under a decent game mechanic. It's quality, not quantity.
But this point is even entirely moot, as new people didn't show up in RV to try their hands at getting one when they just bought it from WW (before the nerf bat). So, there's no quality..and no quantity.
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldnt it make more sense to create a system that has the potential to convert curious/non-hardcores into true pvpers, while ALSO rewarding existing pvpers (hardcore or w/e)?
[/ QUOTE ]
PvP IOs weren't and will never be the answer as long they could be gotten without people having to ever even think about PvPing and right now those are the people where most, if not all the complaints, are coming from. They weren't going to PvP anyways. This was basically just a ploy to get their hands on more stuff.
[ QUOTE ]
But it doesn't in practice now does it? In practice, PvErs were able to get their hands on PvP IOs without even PvPing.
[/ QUOTE ]
uh...that's why they changed the drop rules.
you're hopeless- good luck out there.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Poopy, im'ma break it down for ya, k?
This is what the devs see roughly:
-PvE crowd doesn't want to pvp becuase supposedly "All that matters is build and IOs, and all the hard core pvpers will kill use" when in reality, they don't want to pvp simply cuz they don't enjoy it
-I13-15, the devs kill pvp to supposedly shift away power from hardcore pvpers (Fail)
-Now the devs have to get something that gets the pve crowd to pvp, EVEN if its jsut to farm, now they have to face the undeniable fact that, pve'rs aren't not pvping becuase there is no reward, they aren't pvping becuase they dont *Want to*
Its not a matter of the devs trying to award hard core pvpers etc, its a matter of the devs being in denial about I13s failure
[ QUOTE ]
i think the devs stopped with the" you dont HAVE to use i.o's "and stil be effective statement
i think they realize now thats not true at all...issue i have is..they clearly arent balancing that way. in fact their not even close to making it ok for casual's to make it in this entire game let alone in pvp.
maybe someday the devs will understand what their doing..but i think its time for a few devs changes again..their way to into themselves and not the game.
hopefully they straighten up.. their only a month away from losing people. and frankly we have nothing on the horizen to keep people here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uh...except you dont need IOs to compete in PVE. Nobody's ever said "man, we woulda won that STF if our tanker had purples"
and lets be frank. CO has a totaly different gameplay style. Not everyones gonna like it.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was the guy saying: "pvp recipes, for pvp'ers, earned by pvp'ing and used for pvp"
[/ QUOTE ]
You know what..these suggestions I do agree with or untradeable PvP merits of some kind.
[ QUOTE ]
I do agree though, hardcore pvp'ers pvp because they love it. That's why I did it across numerous games now, but I'm not so naive that I believe there is enough of that mentality here to have a healthy pvp system.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is where I have the biggest problem. PvP is still going to suck even if there's an influx of PvErs in the zone. Just having a mass of bodies won't help PvP at all. PvP is only fun with actual PvPers under a decent game mechanic. It's quality, not quantity.
But this point is even entirely moot, as new people didn't show up in RV to try their hands at getting one when they just bought it from WW (before the nerf bat). So, there's no quality..and no quantity.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pvp rewards (in whatever form they take in this game and most) are never intended to "fix" pvp. They are intended to be incentive and reward pvp activity. Nothing more.
No one in their right mind would come to the table and say "I've got it, I can get us to be the number 1 pvp game on the planet.... through loot!" (my personal feelings of Castle aside, even I don't think he'd say that)
Pvp rewards (character progression if you will) is designed to promote parity between game systems. The ultimate desire is NOT to segregate your user base into pve'ers and pvp'ers and have them practically loathe each other. The goal is for many players to find both systems equally worthy of their time and interest.
This is why some games actually allow you to level up through pvp activity. Why shouldn't I be able to progress through pvp? Why should I only pvp for the love of pvp, while my character remains completely static in a genre designed around the principle of character progression?
If all my loot tables are full after two hours of pve why shouldn't I be able to do something similar through active pvp involvement*
*Yes, I'm about to speak blasphemy; the fear of defeat needs to be greatly reduced in this game, so unlike the pve system, I believe pvp rewards should have a chance to be earned even through defeat (though not as high as through victory).
Regardless of how you believe hardcore pvp'ers are, a true hardcore pvp'er in this game would be knocking down the door at PS to get more pvp rewards implemented because they want to spend less time feeling inclined to pve (including the market). They just want to pvp, they want to be able to progress their character via pvp, not sit in pve to do it.
I think it is you who "lacks the will of the warrior"
[ QUOTE ]
Poopy, if you miss this, i want you to get glasses
THEY AREN'T TRYING TO FIX PVP
They made changes in I13-15 to make the pvp for carebears, now they have to GET these carebears to TRY the new pvp, now the carebears will hate it and go away, and yes prolly farm pvp ios, but who really cares?
THis is the same [censored] as pvp badge
"ZOMG THEY KNAT FRAM TEH PVP BADJE TEHY MUST EARN IT!!!"
/e facepalm
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why PvP in this game is never going to work well. The anti-PvP crowd wants the PvE shinies (note all the threads whining about having to set foot in the PvP zones for badges let alone do stuff for shivans and nukes) but they don't want to really PvP.
So looking at our 3ish kinds of PvPer types as hardcore, carebear and uncommitted what is the objective?
Nothing will make the anti-PvPers (carebears) PvP. They might arena farm for the shinies or sneak in for badges and powers but they are not going to PvP and they aren't going to try it and like it. They will never have a Green Eggs and Ham moment.
The hardcore probably aren't interested in ganking carebears other than the far extreme who want to drive them out of "their zones". They will PvP as long as there is someone there to PvP. You can only drive them away by making PvP unfun for them. (Perhaps I13 has done that for many.)
The real question is are there enough of that last group who will have their Green Eggs and Ham moment if they try it?
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
[ QUOTE ]
Poopy, im'ma break it down for ya, k?
This is what the devs see roughly:
-PvE crowd doesn't want to pvp becuase supposedly "All that matters is build and IOs, and all the hard core pvpers will kill use" when in reality, they don't want to pvp simply cuz they don't enjoy it
-I13-15, the devs kill pvp to supposedly shift away power from hardcore pvpers (Fail)
-Now the devs have to get something that gets the pve crowd to pvp, EVEN if its jsut to farm, now they have to face the undeniable fact that, pve'rs aren't not pvping becuase there is no reward, they aren't pvping becuase they dont *Want to*
Its not a matter of the devs trying to award hard core pvpers etc, its a matter of the devs being in denial about I13s failure
[/ QUOTE ]
True and also in denial about who PvPs and why.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would completely fix this would be to have an occasional event that dramatically increased the drop rate for PVP recipes and XP too. Like, insanely hugely bump the drop rate to something amazing like 1:5 instead of 1:100 and double or triple XP too. Such that PVE'ers would have the same kind of slavering reaction they have to double XP weekend.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like this idea and it would encourage me to pvp. *PMs to sunstorm*
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been talking with Sunstorm via PM and asked him if I could quote his responses. He says I probably shouldn't do that but he'd willing to pop in and give his opinion.
So we may have our first redname in market in months!
[ QUOTE ]
Poopy, if you miss this, i want you to get glasses
THEY AREN'T TRYING TO FIX PVP
They made changes in I13-15 to make the pvp for carebears, now they have to GET these carebears to TRY the new pvp, now the carebears will hate it and go away, and yes prolly farm pvp ios, but who really cares?
THis is the same [censored] as pvp badge
"ZOMG THEY KNAT FRAM TEH PVP BADJE TEHY MUST EARN IT!!!"
/e facepalm
[/ QUOTE ]
I always found this argument funny. especially in a game like this or world of warcraft. why?
ALL PVP IN COH IS CAREBEAR.
HARDCORE PVP INVOLVES ACTUAL PENALTIES TO YOU WHEN YOU DIE, SOMETHING COH PVP HAS ALWAYS LACKED.
If you want harcore pvp? Play EvE or Ultima online or something.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
[ QUOTE ]
So we may have our first redname in market in months!
[/ QUOTE ]
Just as long as he dosen't come in here and say something like "Now which IOs where you talking about?" ... BaBs really messed up when he basically did that very thing in a reply to the STF tower repairer bug...
[ QUOTE ]
i think they realize now thats not true at all...issue i have is..they clearly arent balancing that way. in fact their not even close to making it ok for casual's to make it in this entire game let alone in pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, what?
[ QUOTE ]
hopefully they straighten up.. their only a month away from losing people. and frankly we have nothing on the horizen to keep people here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm sure the PvPIO drop rate was going to make all the difference in how many people were going to leave a 5 year old game for a new one.
By the way, speak for yourself. Not only am I not leaving, I know very few who are planning to.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA