*/Nin is not bad at all. You won't get the same levels of defense as SR without IOs, but you get plenty of other nice tricks. You get a self-heal, something SR would kill for (taking Aid Self is almost ALWAYS stress-heavy on a build =P). You also get neat tricks like Caltrops and Blinding Powder. */Nin can be a lot of fun, and viable too. Plus, your build will be loose. That's great for Stalkers, since you're under a lot of pressure to take AS, BU, a Travel Power prerequisite AND (mostly likely) Swift or Hurdle all before level 14.
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Now that my level 45 brute is slowly closing in on hitting 50, I'm thinking about what character to make next. I have always wanted to try stalkers, and I'm not too experienced with defensive sets, so I figured i'd try something new and make a /nin for PvE. recently in-game though, i heard some high level /nin stalkers complaining that they aren't nearly as good as their SR characters, and nin only gets good in late levels when you heavily IO it out.
Is this the case? I don't play my characters a whole lot once they hit 50, so I'd like a character that plays well the whole way through, not just after I get him to 50 and all IO'd out.
[/ QUOTE ]What you heard were lies. Nin is just as good if not better than SR. You basically get all the defense early instead of getting eaten alive by aoes for 35 levels when hide surpresses like you would on a SR. You have a heal to fall back on when defense fails. You got caltrops to slow down the incoming damage to give the heal time to recharge. Nin is basically what SR should have been from the start. With IOs it gets even better. It may take a bit more work to soft cap the defense on a nin than SR but the results are better. Stalkers dont get the full benefit of SR, they only get 2/3 of the scaling resistance, basically worthless on a low hp AT, and they dont get the full defense debuff resistance that scrappers and brutes get. Only thing they get is quickness and with IOs you can pretty much recreated that on a nin. Nin only lacks knockback protection which is easily fixed with IOs.
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I have an SR Scrapper at 50 and a Nin Stalker that is now at 32. I have to say leveling up has been a lot smoother with the Stalker (though my Kat/SR was plenty good and fun, it didn't feel as good all around leveling up). Part of it is Hide and Assassin's Strike, I am sure, but it is nice, as Ryu said, to not be weak to AOE's for so long. It's nice to have a built-in heal, which my SR Scrapper had to get from Aid Self.
Pros and cons to both, but I rather wonder if the pros for Nin make it better. I'd rather have a heal power and some other aggro tricks than a bit more defense in this game.
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
eh to me its
SR = Toggle Forget Berserk Playstyle
Nin = Thinking Mans Playstyle
One is only better then the other by the Player not the Powers
I've done okay with my ninja stalkers, but they are all below level 25 or so. I have a couple of different kinds of Stalkers...I actually think the ninja one's are the highest level stalkers that I have.
It seems okay to me, but I play by character conception and deal with any flaws on an individual character basis and don't try to compare them to other characters - especially numerically.
If it is a set that you will think is fun to play, I'd make one and go for it. If you don't know for sure, make one of each kind of stalker and then pick which one you like best, or just play all of them, but then...I get a little alt crazy...
My level 50 DM/Nin Stalker, while not being able to "tank" as well as my SM/WP Brute because things won't stay focused on her, can handle just as much aggro effectively and survive.
Part of this is judicious use of Blinding Powder and Caltrops when the defense starts taking hits, part of this is Sha being available and uninterruptible, and a large chunk of this is that I have her softcapped on melee and ranged defense with 42% AoE with Hide suppressed.
But even with SOs, my ElM/Nin does very well for herself and rarely runs into trouble. Being able to pick your fights and the demoralize effect in Assassin's Strike (both the tohit debuff and fear) help far more than any numbers will show on a survival spreadsheet.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
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i have both a /nin and /sr stalker, yes sr has more def then nin but i personaly find it harder to play. when it comes down to it i would much rather have the heal then the extra defence
Just finished leveling my first Stalker to 50, and it was Ninjitsu. I've had an easier time getting into that set than I have with SR, and find it generally better.
With a tiny amount of IO investment, it's easy to get Ninjitsu past SO'd SR defense levels, and it gets a great, fast heal in Kuji-In Sha.
Ninjitsu is also light on the blue bar, as it only has three toggles, one of which (hide) costs no endurance.
And /Nin gets a couple of great tools in Blinding Powder and Caltrops. Even Smoke Flash is occasionally useful.
I've played SR to the 30s twice and didn't like it either time. I feel that Ninjitsu's disadvantages compared to SR - lower defense numbers, no KB protection - are easily compensated for with IOs, whereas SR's disadvantages to /Nin can't be made up as easily.
But I'm rambling. The point is, /Nin isn't as bad as you've heard. It's easily one of the better secondaries, at least in PvE. (Can't speak for PvP.)
The Ballad of Iron Percy
Yeah, I really can't wait until /nin gets ported to scrappers. I'd never roll another /SR again, and my MA/SR would get rerolled as MA/nin in a heartbeat. AoE protection before level 35? An un-interruptable self heal that doesn't require me to burn a power pool or take a useless prerequisite? Two skippable powers instead of none? (For scrappers, I fully expect hide to get replaced with a skippable stealth clone at level 10 or thereabouts.) Cute tricks like caltrops and blinding powder before you get to epics? An in-set place to slot the steadfast 3% def IO?
Sure, it has less overall defense, less defense debuff resistance, and no knockback protection. It also has psi resist, fear protection, and a *ton* more build flexibility. I can't count the number of versions of my ma/sr's build I've created in mids, trying to get enough defense and still take the primary and epic powers I want. With nin, I feel like I have enough survivability in-set, and I don't have to go through ridiculous contortions to come up with an acceptable build.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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That's great for Stalkers, since you're under a lot of pressure to take AS, BU, a Travel Power prerequisite AND (mostly likely) Swift or Hurdle all before level 14.
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...wait, what? I have late-20s characters who just went to Grandville and bought their second jetpack. I don't see people loooming, chanting "No Swift No Play" either.
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@Boltcutter in game.
I would not listen to those Stalkers you talked to because Ninjitsu is excellent. It's not SR true, its better than SR. Like any defense build you are going ot be hurting unless you raise your overall derfense and Ninjitsu is no different. However, you get a heal Kuji In Sha which is basically Reconstruction. Depending on what you pair Ninjitsu with you can be terrible or insanely powerful.
My Stalker just turned level 40 and she is sitting on capped melee and ranged defense. I had her IO'd out at level 37 and she is just dishing out pain and heartbreak wherever she goes. I only do PVE so I am not sure how it would do PVP and don't care, but once I get to 50 I will head to RV and see what kind of issues I can cause heroes 
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Having played both, this is what I've noticed:
Playing Ninjitsu I miss SR's Scaling Resists, Knockback protection, 20% Recharge bonus/runspeed bonus/slow resist and most of all it's 95% Defense Debuff Resistance.
Playing SR I miss Ninjitsu's fun toys, heal, low-level AOE Defense and loose build.
Ninjitsu does have a certain vulnerability to being bursted to death with a frequency you don't see on SR. There are certain very devastating attacks in the game that, when they get past your 24%ish Defense that isn't backed up by Scaling Resists, cook your goose very quickly indeed. Playing the Cimerora mission where you fight that Cyclops along with tons of Cimeroran Traitors really drove that home to me today. SR is vulnerable to this to a degree, but Ninjitsu is especially vulnerable to it due to its lower overall Defense and lack of Scaling Resists to fall back on.
That said, Ninjitsu is a great set and very worthy of play. It's fun, it's effective, it has an amazing late game. And exactly the same is true of SR.
How to choose? If you want a more active secondary where you have to click various powers (heal, caltrops, smoke bomb, blinding powder, mez protection clickie) giving a vary fun gadety feel, Ninjitsu is for you.
If you want a secondary that is very passive (Practiced Brawler is usually put on auto by SR players) and therefore allows you to concentrate on offense more instead of having to constantly think about defense, is more easily soft-capped and gives you Defense you can rely on backed up by a Scaling Resist fallback defense, SR is for you.
Personally, SR is my favorite, though I play both and will roll both again in the future, too.
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Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
*blinks*
If what you've heard is that the set won't give you a neck massage and level up your character for you while you sleep, then, yes, yes I suppose it is as bad as you've heard.
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recently in-game though, i heard some high level /nin stalkers complaining that they aren't nearly as good as their SR characters, and nin only gets good in late levels when you heavily IO it out
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lolwut?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Nin, bad?
/boggle
I don't see how Ninjitsu is bad. Knockback hole, yeah...-KB IOs. Don't have the debuff resistance of an SR or Quickness, that's true. But you get a self-heal, and Blinding Powder can be a fun and useful.
Mine is all IO'd out and, like, softcapped and stuff. With Siphon Life and Reconstruction I'm extremely hard to get knocked on my butt due to being able to rapidly heal myself when a hit does get through (unless the bugger one-shots me)
Its bad in comparison to say WP, or dodge master SR. In general no one really likes the caltrops but they help for running away effectively, thought not really needed if your good. Overall it comes with a heal a -Acc and decent defense, Ku-jin Retsu matches Elude in every way, so think of Nin as SR with a heal and more "tricks". I would rather they completely removed caltrops as useless as they are, but it still synergizes with the whole set.
Lastly , if you think nin isn't for you try WP, comes with heal, a rez and a decent Tier 9. My best advice, is to go with anything with a heal and defense, resistance is nice for tanks and brutes, but as a stalker your better off dodging than taking the damage.
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... I just soloed Countess Crey at level 42 with nin/nin. Admittedly with inspirations and base buffs, but still. My first AV.
/em stabbity
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So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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In general no one really likes the caltrops but they help for running away effectively, thought not really needed if your good.
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I for one love caltrops. It is a great power on a stalker. I don't use them to run away though. I use them to cause chaos, get the the AI running in and out of melee range and attacking less it adds a lot to survivability while I work on getting soft caped.
Dirges
I was not overly impressed with Ninjitsu at first (my standards were unbelievably high for defense sets, having played I1-4 Regen, and perma-Unstop Invuln). After getting her to high levels and capping defenses via IOs, which can be done quite cheaply I might add, she's an absolute wrecking ball of a toon to play. With 3 sets of Zephyr in the build, I dropped Acro, and haven't been knocked since. Since you can cap your defenses without taking tough/weave, its a remarkably end-light build as well. I have stamina 6 slotted for the +Def bonus at 6, but there's absolutely no way I can run low on end with this character.
I DO get occasionally bursted to death, and that's probably something SR would have an easier time surviving with their resists. This only happens with something like 4+ bosses, or an AV that I am foolishly trying to tank. Most AVs can 1 hit a stalker without any resists, so I'm particularly not suited to the task.
Nin is my favourite stalker set of them all. I have three stalkers with it and it is my first choice always. It just has everything a stalker could need in my opinion. Willpower wasnt bad, I enjoyed it. Energy and dark are awful, SR is so-so and Regen felt more like a scrapper than a stalker (nin blade/regen is the ultimate in scrappaliciousness)
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I DO get occasionally bursted to death, and that's probably something SR would have an easier time surviving with their resists.
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Not likely - the resistance values are relatively small and kick in at low enough health that a quick burst is going to get you anyway. Kuji-in Sha helps Ninjitsu survive bursts far and away better than Super Reflexes' scaling resistances do; the issue with Nin is cascade defense failure, something that the capped defense debuff resistance of SR prevents rather nicely.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I DO get occasionally bursted to death, and that's probably something SR would have an easier time surviving with their resists.
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Not likely - the resistance values are relatively small and kick in at low enough health that a quick burst is going to get you anyway. Kuji-in Sha helps Ninjitsu survive bursts far and away better than Super Reflexes' scaling resistances do; the issue with Nin is cascade defense failure, something that the capped defense debuff resistance of SR prevents rather nicely.
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Yea, plus with a Stalkers really low HP, those resist values really start to matter alot less, as you have alot less HP to work with. On a Scrapper, and especially a Brute, you can definately notice them kicking in, and they do help alot.
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I for one love caltrops. It is a great power on a stalker. I don't use them to run away though. I use them to cause chaos, get the the AI running in and out of melee range and attacking less it adds a lot to survivability while I work on getting soft caped.
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Also great for stopping an ambush train in its tracks and bunching them up for AoE destruction by the team. Hilarious place for the Armageddon knockdown proc as well. It's no ice slick at that point, but it knocks a few over now and then making it look like they actually tripped on the trops.
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Nin is as good (better imo) than SR and it is 1000x more fun.
Now that my level 45 brute is slowly closing in on hitting 50, I'm thinking about what character to make next. I have always wanted to try stalkers, and I'm not too experienced with defensive sets, so I figured i'd try something new and make a /nin for PvE. recently in-game though, i heard some high level /nin stalkers complaining that they aren't nearly as good as their SR characters, and nin only gets good in late levels when you heavily IO it out.
Is this the case? I don't play my characters a whole lot once they hit 50, so I'd like a character that plays well the whole way through, not just after I get him to 50 and all IO'd out.