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The animation system *itself* is a very complex system, but the connection between the powers system and the animation system is, if a bit Rube Goldbergian, not very complex or fragile.
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You're contradicting yourself.
Rube Goldberg:
2. deviously complex and impractical
If the connection is "Rube Goldbergian" as you put it, that implies it is also complex and impractical(to change).
Consiering the number of animation and effect breaks the seem to have happend recently, I'm thinking it's more fragile than you're giving it credit for.
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No, I'm not because whatever the dictionary.com definition of the term, "Rube Goldberg-like" only has to invoke the illustrations of Rube Goldberg. The design of the powers system/animation system interface does. But its not especially complex. Although some Rube Goldberg systems are highly complex, not all are: the defining characteristic of Rube Goldberg systems are that they are more complex than they need to be. That doesn't mean they are very complex as such.
(Example: this is from the Rube Goldberg site in which sitting on a cushion forces air through a tube which blows an ice boat to a lighted cigar butt popping a balloon which causes a dictator to think he's been shot and fall over backward onto shutter bulb. That's characteristicly ridiculously more complex than necessary, but not very complex to understand in general).
Also, you're conflating animation issues within the animation engine with the connection between the powers system and the animation system. Given a particular power, and a particular set of starting states for the character in question, I can predict with basically 100% accuracy what sequence of animations will play for that character, at least for all the powers and entity states for which I'm aware. The system does not seem to "break" in that case.
It is large enough in detail, however, that sometimes mistakes are made. That has nothing to do with the "fragility" of the system though.
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The real issue (for BaB, anyway) is aesthetic, since picking animations that are too short would induce pauses at the end of attacks, and picking animations too randomly can create transition problems in some unusual cases where powers were not designed to follow each other.
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Which is why I said "if they still looked OK" after being re-timed, assuming BaBs wasn't re-timing them each by hand.
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My original quote in full:
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Actually, due to the mechanics of animation rooting and cast time enforcement, balance isn't really an issue. If the player picks an animation that is shorter than the cast time, cast time will still be enforced. If the player picks an animation time that is longer than the cast time, the rooted time of that animation will be enforced. The player could theoretically nerf themselves with a longer animation, but they could not buff themselves with a shorter one.
The issue was never stated as a balance issue for that reason. The real issue (for BaB, anyway) is aesthetic, since picking animations that are too short would induce pauses at the end of attacks, and picking animations too randomly can create transition problems in some unusual cases where powers were not designed to follow each other.
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This was in direct response to this quote of yours:
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-Cast times for animations are not standard, greatly cutting down what animations could be swapped around without impacting power balance. Unless a system was created to auto re-time them and assuming they still looked OK...or unless you created dozens of versions of the KO Blow animation to fit every conceivable cast time, I wouldn't see the work involved being worth it just for something as minor as every attack having one alternate animation.
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In other words, I'm saying that you do not need to retime the animations for balance purposes because the current game mechanics already take care of that: you imply that balance issues prevent using different animations unless they were somehow "retimed" for the cast time in question. However, even if the powers aren't "retimed" there is still the aesthetic problem of unwanted pauses after animations in some cases. But artificially speeding up or slowing down the animations just to stretch or compress them into the correct cast time is an even worse aesthetic problem in the general case.
This is more obvious within context.
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My guess that such a feature is added in some form within the next twelve months is much, much higher (better than even money: I'd take that bet).
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I wouldn't lay any money down until I saw how Going Rogue performs. It's quite possible there will be some "team restructuring" if GR doesn't live up to what NCSoft hopes, and that would alter the scope of any subsequent development of the game.
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Anything is possible, especially for people who predict "anything is possible." However, this is one of those predictions that has the additional benefit of the 100% safety margin of being impossible to disprove since we don't know what NCSoft is "hoping."
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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One of the most fun things to do with KOB (which I do on occasion when I'm bored and passing through low level zones) is to click on the Vanguard accolade power (if you have it) which amplifies all secondary effects (such as knock-up in this particular instance) and go hit some little lvl 5 guy with a KOB. The hang time is just spectacular.
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Power Boost effects (such as Power Boost, Power BuildUp, Benumb, Vanguard Medal, and others) no longer effect Knockback or Knockup.
I know, it makes me sad too. Tho probably not my teammates.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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The animation system *itself* is a very complex system, but the connection between the powers system and the animation system is, if a bit Rube Goldbergian, not very complex or fragile.
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I sometimes think Arc is Dennis Miller.
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No, I'm not because whatever the dictionary.com definition of the term, "Rube Goldberg-like" only has to invoke the illustrations of Rube Goldberg. The design of the powers system/animation system interface does. But its not especially complex. Although some Rube Goldberg systems are highly complex, not all are: the defining characteristic of Rube Goldberg systems are that they are more complex than they need to be. That doesn't mean they are very complex as such.
(Example: this is from the Rube Goldberg site in which sitting on a cushion forces air through a tube which blows an ice boat to a lighted cigar butt popping a balloon which causes a dictator to think he's been shot and fall over backward onto shutter bulb. That's characteristicly ridiculously more complex than necessary, but not very complex to understand in general).
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I wouldn't consider the animation systems to be more complicated than they need to be. I'd consider them to very uncomplicated, but because of the sheer number of animations that have to be wrangled, that simplicity makes the task extremely complicated and fragile.
The best analogy I can think of is to think of how the internet would work if URLs didn't exist, and instead all web pages were accessed using search tags. Defining an address for "The Official Beekeepers Society" web site would be pretty simple. "Bee" "Keeper" "Society".
However, the first thousand web pages were created using only 100 tags. Then they upgraded the web because there was only so many combinations where you could use "Bee" that made sense anymore, and they allowed for any number of tags to be defined and used. Then added about 5000 more pages into the mixture of old tags, new tags, recycled tags, massively overused tags, innapropriately used tags, etc...and the simplicity of the system makes it complex.
Tags as words isn't a very accurate concept either. Tags being keys that you would have to hold down simultaneously would be a more accurate analogy. So holding down "B", "K", and "S" would take you to "The Official Beekeeper Society." website, while holding down "B", "K", "S", and "L" would take you to the "Barbecued Steak & K'Bobs Lovers" website (great deal on aprons right now).
Then add in a half dozen or so cats who like to pounce on your keyboard while you try to surf the web, and you've got a pretty accurate picture of how our system decides what animation to play and why it's so damn tricky to keep everything working.
That sounds to me Babs like you're conflating 'simple' and 'elegant.'
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Hey, if we're really lucky, i16 will allow alternate animations for our powers.
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Knowing BaBs, we would have to be astronomically lucky.
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Goodbye "Johnny_Butane", hello "Astronomically_Lucky"!
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Hey, if we're really lucky, i16 will allow alternate animations for our powers.
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Knowing BaBs, we would have to be astronomically lucky.
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Goodbye "Johnny_Butane", hello "Astronomically_Lucky"!
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roflmao
GIVE TANKS DARKNESS/ELECTRICAL MASTERY! =3
Level 50's: Komrade Kommunism (T); King Darksource (T); Burning Red Star (T); Komrade Kosmonaut (WS); Vredesbyrd (Br); Anarchery (Bl)
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No, I'm not because whatever the dictionary.com definition of the term, "Rube Goldberg-like" only has to invoke the illustrations of Rube Goldberg. The design of the powers system/animation system interface does. But its not especially complex. Although some Rube Goldberg systems are highly complex, not all are: the defining characteristic of Rube Goldberg systems are that they are more complex than they need to be. That doesn't mean they are very complex as such.
(Example: this is from the Rube Goldberg site in which sitting on a cushion forces air through a tube which blows an ice boat to a lighted cigar butt popping a balloon which causes a dictator to think he's been shot and fall over backward onto shutter bulb. That's characteristicly ridiculously more complex than necessary, but not very complex to understand in general).
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I wouldn't consider the animation systems to be more complicated than they need to be. I'd consider them to very uncomplicated, but because of the sheer number of animations that have to be wrangled, that simplicity makes the task extremely complicated and fragile.
The best analogy I can think of is to think of how the internet would work if URLs didn't exist, and instead all web pages were accessed using search tags. Defining an address for "The Official Beekeepers Society" web site would be pretty simple. "Bee" "Keeper" "Society".
However, the first thousand web pages were created using only 100 tags. Then they upgraded the web because there was only so many combinations where you could use "Bee" that made sense anymore, and they allowed for any number of tags to be defined and used. Then added about 5000 more pages into the mixture of old tags, new tags, recycled tags, massively overused tags, innapropriately used tags, etc...and the simplicity of the system makes it complex.
Tags as words isn't a very accurate concept either. Tags being keys that you would have to hold down simultaneously would be a more accurate analogy. So holding down "B", "K", and "S" would take you to "The Official Beekeeper Society." website, while holding down "B", "K", "S", and "L" would take you to the "Barbecued Steak & K'Bobs Lovers" website (great deal on aprons right now).
Then add in a half dozen or so cats who like to pounce on your keyboard while you try to surf the web, and you've got a pretty accurate picture of how our system decides what animation to play and why it's so damn tricky to keep everything working.
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But Captain! The engine cannae take it much longer! Any second now, and she's gonna blow!
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Hey, if we're really lucky, i16 will allow alternate animations for our powers.
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Knowing BaBs, we would have to be astronomically lucky.
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Goodbye "Johnny_Butane", hello "Astronomically_Lucky"!
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Hang on to that. Some things are just good enough to be brought back up again sometime, as a friendly reminder. ;]
Hey, Ace, you think if we ask Back Alley Brawler nicely enough, he'll pony up some alternate War Mace animations to play with? Not that the existing ones stink or anything, but I just love having customization options. 
I'm guessing the Super Strength and Martial Arts ones are just the beginning, and I am quite excited. 
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I would be willing to wager a lot of money that you're right Grey.
Eventually custom animations maybe for all sets.
I think I put a request in for a two handed overhead smashing animation for Shatter the other day, can't hurt to get a jump start. 
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No, I'm not because whatever the dictionary.com definition of the term, "Rube Goldberg-like" only has to invoke the illustrations of Rube Goldberg. The design of the powers system/animation system interface does. But its not especially complex. Although some Rube Goldberg systems are highly complex, not all are: the defining characteristic of Rube Goldberg systems are that they are more complex than they need to be. That doesn't mean they are very complex as such.
(Example: this is from the Rube Goldberg site in which sitting on a cushion forces air through a tube which blows an ice boat to a lighted cigar butt popping a balloon which causes a dictator to think he's been shot and fall over backward onto shutter bulb. That's characteristicly ridiculously more complex than necessary, but not very complex to understand in general).
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I wouldn't consider the animation systems to be more complicated than they need to be. I'd consider them to very uncomplicated, but because of the sheer number of animations that have to be wrangled, that simplicity makes the task extremely complicated and fragile.
The best analogy I can think of is to think of how the internet would work if URLs didn't exist, and instead all web pages were accessed using search tags. Defining an address for "The Official Beekeepers Society" web site would be pretty simple. "Bee" "Keeper" "Society".
However, the first thousand web pages were created using only 100 tags. Then they upgraded the web because there was only so many combinations where you could use "Bee" that made sense anymore, and they allowed for any number of tags to be defined and used. Then added about 5000 more pages into the mixture of old tags, new tags, recycled tags, massively overused tags, innapropriately used tags, etc...and the simplicity of the system makes it complex.
Tags as words isn't a very accurate concept either. Tags being keys that you would have to hold down simultaneously would be a more accurate analogy. So holding down "B", "K", and "S" would take you to "The Official Beekeeper Society." website, while holding down "B", "K", "S", and "L" would take you to the "Barbecued Steak & K'Bobs Lovers" website (great deal on aprons right now).
Then add in a half dozen or so cats who like to pounce on your keyboard while you try to surf the web, and you've got a pretty accurate picture of how our system decides what animation to play and why it's so damn tricky to keep everything working.
[/ QUOTE ]
And then when they decided to internationalize the web, they added the ability to add language search words, so you could look for Bee Keeper Society English and Bee Keeper Society German.
Except if you added a page tagged Bee Keeper Society English but didn't delete the original Bee Keeper Society page, then a search for "Bee Keeper Society" would randomly retrieve one or the other. Editing Bee Keeper Society English but not Bee Keeper Society would cause people to sometimes get the updated page and sometimes get the old page. To force Bee Keeper Society English to only retrieve the "Bee Keeper Society English" page and not the "Bee Keeper Society" page you would need to set a priority on the Bee Keeper Society English page that was higher than the original Bee Keeper Society page.
And if I made a page called just "Bee Keeper" and set its priority very high, everyone searching for Bee Keeper Society English would suddenly be redirected to my page without warning.
To predict what page you'd get if you searched for "Keeper" you'd need to find all pages with that tag, look at their priority, and pick the one with the highest value. If there was more than one, roll dice and randomly pick one. Conversely, to predict what priority to set to a new page called "Bee Society" you'd have to find all pages that use either of those tags, all priorities assigned to those pages, and ensure that your priority was higher than all pages that use one or the other exclusively, but lower than all pages that use both with additional tags.
And then the cats start to mate on your keyboard.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Then add in a half dozen or so cats who like to pounce on your keyboard while you try to surf the web, and you've got a pretty accurate picture of how our system decides what animation to play and why it's so damn tricky to keep everything working.
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Actually your cat may trigger a cpu flaw and you'll turn into this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpjXFF0zIJY
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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Hey, if we're really lucky, i16 will allow alternate animations for our powers.
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Knowing BaBs, we would have to be astronomically lucky.
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Goodbye "Johnny_Butane", hello "Astronomically_Lucky"!
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Well played, sir! Very, very well played.
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No, I'm not because whatever the dictionary.com definition of the term, "Rube Goldberg-like" only has to invoke the illustrations of Rube Goldberg. The design of the powers system/animation system interface does. But its not especially complex. Although some Rube Goldberg systems are highly complex, not all are: the defining characteristic of Rube Goldberg systems are that they are more complex than they need to be. That doesn't mean they are very complex as such.
(Example: this is from the Rube Goldberg site in which sitting on a cushion forces air through a tube which blows an ice boat to a lighted cigar butt popping a balloon which causes a dictator to think he's been shot and fall over backward onto shutter bulb. That's characteristicly ridiculously more complex than necessary, but not very complex to understand in general).
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I wouldn't consider the animation systems to be more complicated than they need to be. I'd consider them to very uncomplicated, but because of the sheer number of animations that have to be wrangled, that simplicity makes the task extremely complicated and fragile.
The best analogy I can think of is to think of how the internet would work if URLs didn't exist, and instead all web pages were accessed using search tags. Defining an address for "The Official Beekeepers Society" web site would be pretty simple. "Bee" "Keeper" "Society".
However, the first thousand web pages were created using only 100 tags. Then they upgraded the web because there was only so many combinations where you could use "Bee" that made sense anymore, and they allowed for any number of tags to be defined and used. Then added about 5000 more pages into the mixture of old tags, new tags, recycled tags, massively overused tags, innapropriately used tags, etc...and the simplicity of the system makes it complex.
Tags as words isn't a very accurate concept either. Tags being keys that you would have to hold down simultaneously would be a more accurate analogy. So holding down "B", "K", and "S" would take you to "The Official Beekeeper Society." website, while holding down "B", "K", "S", and "L" would take you to the "Barbecued Steak & K'Bobs Lovers" website (great deal on aprons right now).
Then add in a half dozen or so cats who like to pounce on your keyboard while you try to surf the web, and you've got a pretty accurate picture of how our system decides what animation to play and why it's so damn tricky to keep everything working.
[/ QUOTE ]
Translation: Our animation system wasn't very well thought out with foresight in mind.
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Hey, if we're really lucky, i16 will allow alternate animations for our powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Knowing BaBs, we would have to be astronomically lucky.
[/ QUOTE ]
Goodbye "Johnny_Butane", hello "Astronomically_Lucky"!
[/ QUOTE ]
The comment still stands.
They are delivering only two sets with alternate animations for i16, as opposed to every set.
"For our powers" in this case doesn't apply to anything that's not SS or MA, which is the case for MOST of the powers in the game.
So if you're not SS or MA, they are not providing alternate animations to you powers in i16.
If I instruct someone to "stack the boxes on the floor" and they only stack two of the ten boxes on the floor, the job is not complete. You shouldn't have to specify "stack ALL the boxes on the floor". It's implicit.
In this case, it should have been implicit I was referring to all the attack animations in the game, not just MA and SS.
The i16 info actually vindicates me. We're only getting a couple sets with alternate animations for i16. Even if we get some later, that still wont be for i16.
.
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Hey, if we're really lucky, i16 will allow alternate animations for our powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Knowing BaBs, we would have to be astronomically lucky.
[/ QUOTE ]
Goodbye "Johnny_Butane", hello "Astronomically_Lucky"!
[/ QUOTE ]
Oops, how'd that slip out.
"The i16 info actually vindicates me. We're onl............................................... ............................eh, it's funny, but not worth my time to dissect the backpedaling.
[ QUOTE ]
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Hey, if we're really lucky, i16 will allow alternate animations for our powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Knowing BaBs, we would have to be astronomically lucky.
[/ QUOTE ]
Goodbye "Johnny_Butane", hello "Astronomically_Lucky"!
[/ QUOTE ]
The comment still stands.
They are delivering only two sets with alternate animations for i16, as opposed to every set.
"For our powers" in this case doesn't apply to anything that's not SS or MA, which is the case for MOST of the powers in the game.
So if you're not SS or MA, they are not providing alternate animations to you powers in i16.
If I instruct someone to "stack the boxes on the floor" and they only stack two of the ten boxes on the floor, the job is not complete. You shouldn't have to specify "stack ALL the boxes on the floor". It's implicit.
In this case, it should have been implicit I was referring to all the attack animations in the game, not just MA and SS.
The i16 info actually vindicates me. We're only getting a couple sets with alternate animations for i16. Even if we get some later, that still wont be for i16.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have some kind of chemistry issue that makes it physically impossible for you to be happy? I haven't seen one positive post from you anywhere.
I mean, I really didn't believe we'd ever have access to alternate animations. I said "really lucky"if it happened. It's miraculous as I'm concerned. I'm psyched! The tech exists, and could even be possible for more of this down the road! It's fantastic!
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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Do you have some kind of chemistry issue that makes it physically impossible for you to be happy? I haven't seen one positive post from you anywhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or to admit that he is wrong.
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Do you have some kind of chemistry issue that makes it physically impossible for you to be happy? I haven't seen one positive post from you anywhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or to admit that he is wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're right. He really ought to get that checked out or something, it can't be healthy.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
I think that J_B is just one of those chronically grumpy people who'll somehow manage to outlive us all.... World's a funny place, ain't it?
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Awesome power I agree...but the wind-up is very cartoony.
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Part of the charm, IMO. I wish my tankers could eat a can of spinach right before the windup.
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Sounds like a great idea for a costume change emote!
[ @Zombie Fryer ][ @Zombie Smasher ]
| Home Server: Virtue |
Twitter: @ZFLikesNachos Save City of Heroes (Titan Network) [Successful "The Really Hard Way" runs: 4] [Click ^]
| Home Server: Virtue |
Twitter: @ZFLikesNachos Save City of Heroes (Titan Network) [Successful "The Really Hard Way" runs: 4] [Click ^]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you have some kind of chemistry issue that makes it physically impossible for you to be happy? I haven't seen one positive post from you anywhere.
I mean, I really didn't believe we'd ever have access to alternate animations. I said "really lucky"if it happened. It's miraculous as I'm concerned. I'm psyched! The tech exists, and could even be possible for more of this down the road! It's fantastic!
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a feeling if tankers were all of a sudden given tankomination tomorrow and it worked exactly as he wanted it to, he would still find something to complain and be unhappy about. The nice part is virtually everyone see's him for what he is, and either blocks him, or just gets a nice chuckle out of it.
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Do you have some kind of chemistry issue that makes it physically impossible for you to be happy? I haven't seen one positive post from you anywhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or to admit that he is wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like Dr. House, minus the wit and utterly devoid of humor.
GIVE TANKS DARKNESS/ELECTRICAL MASTERY! =3
Level 50's: Komrade Kommunism (T); King Darksource (T); Burning Red Star (T); Komrade Kosmonaut (WS); Vredesbyrd (Br); Anarchery (Bl)
The use of the word "bit" modifies Rube Goldbergian, meaning that while the system developed for CoX isn't as good as it could be, it's not "deviously complex and impractical." No contradiction, but the correct use of a modifier, which you missed.
Are animations breaking slightly a sign that the system isn't robust enough, or simply a sign that it's a computer program, and moving or fixing one thing can sometimes have negative effects elsewhere? I'm thinking more of the latter, but a developer would have to say for sure. The engine seems pretty stable to me, and the worst bugs I've run into are in the annoying category more than anything else.
I do agree that NCSoft has invested a lot, so once the byproducts of that investment are out, how they did will determine the future for sure. Seeing as how GR is probably coming out in the next 12 months, which is the time Arcanaville used, I would say that the statement works. Something REALLY dramatic would have to happen for NCSoft to not put out everything they're working on for CoX.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory