Kheldians really don't need large amounts of dev attention again. The improvements they made not too long ago were great. Playing a human form Warshade from 1-50 is now not only viable, it's actually fun. The only complaints I have are the awkwardness with form-changing and animations and the useless status protection we get from controllers. Other than that, I think they're great. I know PBs have their own set of problems, but I can't really speak for them since I've not played one extensively.
The thing I really like about them, though, is how very different they are from anything else. Warshades are especially engaging to play since they make use of some unique mechanics and thrive in interesting situations. I just love the diverse toolbox they get.
My widow, while powerful, isn't as fun or interesting to play. The crits from stealth help make things a bit more interesting, as does the mix of ranged and melee, but he's just not as interesting as either of my shades (one tri-form, started in I3, the other human-only, started in I13).
The relative power of SoAs vs Khelds is debatable. Warshades are incredible PvE characters at the endgame. While the SoAs do have team buffs, I'm not sure they can quite compete with the raw killage a Warshade can lay down. It'd also be a lie to say that a shade doesn't give back to the team because they do get a few pretty great control powers to help out (low quantity is made up for with high quality). They basically end up as tankmage controllers with hugely-damaging pets (as far as pets go, anyways).
I'll try to put it simply.
Kelds=awesome sauce for yourself
SoA=awesome sauce for the team
Both are great, both are crunchy with chewy centers, but both are awesome in different ways.
Neither are intended to be Epic in power (although warshades or full teams of SoA do achieve that). Instead their epic in storyline. Weather you agree or not as to the quality of the storylines, you gotta admit their epic. A single coherent storyline from levels 1 through 50 is EPIC.
I will mention that SoA storylines are more coherent then keld storylines. Sometimes on my WS the arcs don't seem related to the previous arcs outside of dealing with council, again.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Khelds and SoAs will never be equal. Thankfully so, because if any two ATs were to become equal, the game would instantly be less fun. Enjoy the two for being what they are. I, for one, wouldn't want the devs to dramatically change khelds to make them more "similar" to VEATs. As another poster stated, the recent changes have made khelds more playable and viable.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
though I wouldn't be opposed to keeping the Fitness Pool when I transform >.>
If you get to keep Fitness Pool when you transform, then I get to have mezz protection if I choose to stay all human... :P
"The One"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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SoAs & Widows become much, much, MUCH better (than Kheldians) when they hit level 24.
SoA & Widows get team-friendly powers and are absolutely beastly solo (an easily soft-cappable Widow comes to mind). And with dual builds, the SoA & Widows get two archetypes in one.
Is there any reason to suspect that Kheldians could ever be thought of as equal to the VEATs?
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Short Answer: No.
The biggest problem you'll ever face as a VEAT after level 24 is how you can possibly fit all that awesome into one build. Playing as a VEAT is the game on easymode, plain & simple.
Kheldians, while fun to play & rewarding in the long haul, remain a serious challenge even for experienced & seasoned players. Unless you completely gimp yourself & go full-on humanform (sacrificing both high damage & status protection), you will always be forced to make hard decisions about where you put your slots. As a result, many of the powers you pick will underperform & are essentially throw-away powers that you will rarely use.
Having said that, there are quite a few Kheldian players who will tell you that the challenge is the REASON to play Khelds - not the drawback. You can play 10 khelds, and odds are you'll end up with 10 different builds. So in a sense, their weakness is also their greatest strength.
I wouldn't expect the basic function & performance of the Khelds to change or improve significantly in the near future. By their nature they are jacks of all trades, and masters of none. They are working as intended. To make them completely self-reliant, give them more slots to allow them to capitalize on a greater number of powers, or to boost their performance so that each form functions as well as the AT it mimics, would make them so incredibly overpowered it would be ludicrous.
Why do I do do do things I do
Nobody was ever there for me to talk to
Once I was youngster, pure and true
Now I'm running with a sick, sick crew.
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...there are quite a few Kheldian players who will tell you that the challenge is the REASON to play Khelds - not the drawback. You can play 10 khelds, and odds are you'll end up with 10 different builds. So in a sense, their weakness is also their greatest strength...
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That right there.
After getting a Dominator to level 50, and unlocking VEATs I was quite unimpressed with how they played, even after Lv24, as I personally dislike shields and passive/toggle defenses and seeing how VEATs focus on attack power-sets that I didn't like so much in the game anyway, I left my two VEATs to gather virtual dust.
I've brought two Kheldian (PB and WS) to level 50, and I'm on my 3rd Warshade at the moment, and still enjoy the whole TriFormer combat-style... what can I say... VEATs bore me, Kheldians excite me, it's that simple, just like the quote above says... YMMV.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
As someone with a Lvl 50 PB, WS, and Crab... and a lvl 49 Fortunata:
I enjoy the hero and villain epic archetypes for different reasons, but I have to say that I agree that VEATS are easy mode. My Crab was a blast to play, and he just got more and more powerful... able to take out groups of mobs at once and summon multiple pets to eat aggro and dish out extra damage. My Fortunata has so much in the way of control and defenses that she rarely has to pop a purple or green insp, if ever. I've literally played Tanker on teams as a Fort, because the combination of control and Defense allows me to stay standing pretty easily (and no, I'm not soft-capped).
By comparison, my PB was effective from lvl's 1-50, but was easily more challenging to play than either VEAT because of his lack of mez protection outside of Dwarf/Light form. That's not a big deal though... having played a Blaster as my first toon, its not a big deal to mitigate mez most of the time.
My WS was painful to play until about lvl 20, and then it just got better and better until, by the early 40's, it was a lawnmower on minions... and the only time I really had to slow down and be careful was around bosses, whereas my PB didn't much worry about bosses (especially after getting Light Form), but had to do a lot of form-switching to string together a decent AoE attack chain to soften up large groups of minions/lieuts.
Khelds, for me, are definitely more of a challenge than VEATs, but are still fun to play, albeit in a different way.
Screw it. I'm gonna quote myself. The following is taken from the Soldiers of Arachnos forum.
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VEATs provide a lot of passive aid to the team with their Leadership toggles and people tend to notice that more readily (The extra icons on screen help 
). That effect is, of course, multiplied as more VEATs come together. Combine that with the fact that one of their primary focuses is dealing damage and you've got an AT that's gonna garner the limelight.
HEATs, on the other hand, make their contribution to teams by being able to fill several rolls at a moment's notice. Somebody over aggroed, the tank's down and the heavies are making a beeline for the squishies you say? Not a problem. Time to Dwarf up! The team needs more damage to take down an AV? Excuse me while I shift to Nova. Thing is, there's no "I just stuck my finger in the dam and saved all our butts" icon. It's less about powers and more about play.
EATs, all EATs, are powerful and contribute a great deal to teams that have them (Provided the players are good).
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Like I said, SoAs lend their talents in very obvious ways. Kheldians require more active ability to live up to their epic title. However, that's not to say that VEAT players can afford to be lazy or otherwise less capable than HEAT players. Comparing the two is like comparing boxing to aikido. Whether it's a punch in the face or a throw, it's gonna kick your [censored].
EDIT: Personally speaking, I prefer Kheldians to SoAs. First of all, I love shapeshifters. If you've got a character class that can transform into something I'm probably gonna play it. Plus, I'm a fan of elegant solutions. Maybe it's the programmer in me but I like the fact that my Khelds (I've got one of each. Both of which are TriFormers) require me to pay constant attention to the battlefield to make maximum use of them. To quote another AT description, "Skill can divert clumsy raw power and precisely applied force can solve many problems."
Timeshadow, in a teaming sense you hit it on the nail (errr, nail on the head). But I believe the OP was talking about solo performance. Now so far I have level'd and Bane to 50 and a Widow to 50 twice (somehow my Widow was deleted and now I have to do it again). Also I have a PB at 33 and WS at 30 both all hum. All of them are blasts on teams, not a problem even at all hum my PB can tank well and my WS is a good Scraptroller, however solo their performance is not that great, it is doable but sometimes tough (in all hum mode). Their kill speed solo is not that great and the no mez protection in human mode (which is understandable) makes it a little hard. However, the two VEATs (Bane and Widow) float through a mish and don't hardly even get touched and do it quickly.
When it comes down to the amount of fun I have with each toon while playing.
1. Bane = Warshade (Those two it was really hard to find a winner, they are just so fun to play)
2. Peacebringer - Feels like a Tank/Scrapper/Blaster
3. Widow - I love her but man sometimes I find myself falling asleep when I play this toon, does not get touched. She kills quickly and moves quickly. Nothing really exciting about her, but if I need to grind money, merits, or drops she would more than likely be the one to play, other than that she probably won't get much PT.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Sir, you need to level your Warshade a bit. You don't even have the pets, of which you can have multiple out, and they do about as much damage as you do. Warshades really start to shine around level 40, and there's little that can keep up with them after that.
Playing a WS all the way to 50 is the game on uber easy mode. Stygian + Eclipse + Quasar + Unchain Essence = too easy. I find it more fun playing a Shade then I did a bringer. That said both are way more fun IMO than the villain counterparts. Maybe its the forms or the more versatility. When I play as a fortunata I feel like a weak psi blaster, when I play my Widow I feel like a stalker with toxic dmg, which I enjoy. The feeling of one shotting mobs is very fun, but it only gets really good when Elude is gotten. As for the Soldier, well being a blaster for the first 26 levels is ok...but switching to a stalker yet again isn't very diversed. The team buff's are nice but never really needed, just convenient to have.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Sir, you need to level your Warshade a bit. You don't even have the pets, of which you can have multiple out, and they do about as much damage as you do. Warshades really start to shine around level 40, and there's little that can keep up with them after that.
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I am inclined to agree.
Actually, From about lvl 34 or so on... Warshades are nasty.
Basically once you have your pets slotted, as well as your mez powers and Mires. You basically take out minions en masse, Lieuts with relative ease, and bosses with moderate difficulty, and end pretty much every fight with full green and blue bars.
People have contributed positive opinions that I share and have done so more concisely the. I could so I'll leave that both types are good and powerful in different ways.
But I got to say something about the supposed 'challenge' of playing a Kheldian. If you play various ATs when you create Alts you'll see that each on brings it's own challenges. Most of them don't make slotting nor choosing powers easy (well except maybe Masterminds). When I made my PB way back when, it was different a playstyle yes, but the challenge wasn't anything greater then I usually run across. It could be just me and my friends, but I just don't see anything veteran about them.
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Now so far I have level'd and Bane to 50 and a Widow to 50 twice (somehow my Widow was deleted and now I have to do it again). Also I have a PB at 33 and WS at 30 both all hum.
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That'll do it. Human Only Kheldians tend to have more difficulty solo due to their lower amount of versatility when compared to TriFormers. You can't Dwarf up to alleviate mezzes or use Nova's floating artillery style.
That's not to say that going all human is a bad way to build; it's just that you're sacrificing some advantages for...something (I've never gone that route so please excuse my ignorance).
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Playing a WS all the way to 50 is the game on uber easy mode. Stygian + Eclipse + Quasar + Unchain Essence = too easy. I find it more fun playing a Shade then I did a bringer. That said both are way more fun IMO than the villain counterparts. Maybe its the forms or the more versatility. When I play as a fortunata I feel like a weak psi blaster, when I play my Widow I feel like a stalker with toxic dmg, which I enjoy. The feeling of one shotting mobs is very fun, but it only gets really good when Elude is gotten. As for the Soldier, well being a blaster for the first 26 levels is ok...but switching to a stalker yet again isn't very diversed. The team buff's are nice but never really needed, just convenient to have.
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Your attack chain is available at high levels only. In order to get that chain, you have to suffer through 38 or so levels of not having it. Saying that you can get from 1-50 with it is, at best, inaccurate & misleading.
The key difference between a Kheld & a VEAT is that VEAT's start out with Mez protection + a minor version of health/stamina as an inherent power. They then suffer for about 14 levels or so until they start building up their team buffs & defensive abilities. After that, you grind for another 10 levels or so as lowly soldier/widow until you hit 24 - at which point your "I Win" button is installed.
Kheldians experience a very fleeting version of this when they get their Nova form, and realize that they can safely kite & blast their way through missions while their fellow heroes are still crawling on the ground like worms. But reality sets in soon thereafter, when you are mezzed & dropped from the sky for the first time. That's the point where the rubber meets the road, and the real challenge begins. The Kheld lovers will perservere & reach heights of glory - while the fair weather players will drop out in disgust & play something more rewarding.
VEAT's are, in essence, the polar opposite of Kheldians in almost every sense. VEAT's get an extremely utilitarian inherent ability - Khelians get a crappy inherent + travel powers. VEAT's get mundane weapons, body armor, and military training, while Khelds get flashy powers. Kheldians get 3 forms - VEAT's get a bonus costume slot with a uniform. VEAT's are a solid, extremely utilitarian AT that performs extremely well in solo & even better when grouped on teams. Khelds appear at first to be very team-dependent & situational, but eventually bloom into a multi-role threat.
So the real question is whether you want a steady, implacable march through the levels - or a roller coaster of wonder & frustration.
Why do I do do do things I do
Nobody was ever there for me to talk to
Once I was youngster, pure and true
Now I'm running with a sick, sick crew.
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VEAT's are, in essence, the polar opposite of Kheldians in almost every sense. VEAT's get an extremely utilitarian inherent ability - Khelians get a crappy inherent + travel powers. VEAT's get mundane weapons, body armor, and military training, while Khelds get flashy powers. Kheldians get 3 forms - VEAT's get a bonus costume slot with a uniform. VEAT's are a solid, extremely utilitarian AT that performs extremely well in solo & even better when grouped on teams. Khelds appear at first to be very team-dependent & situational, but eventually bloom into a multi-role threat.
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Ummm, the VEAT inherent is of little quality, almost like they don't have one. Khelds inherent is great when teamed with certain ATs, just as long as your not on a team full of troller, doms and epics, you should be good. I guess you could call that a bonus costume, but 2/6 you can't really customize (yeah, like I would want to change the VEAT costume, those things are hot), one you can't change at all.
I wouldn't say team dependant as much as I would say role filling.
A PB on a team with all Blaster would end up with like a 140% damage increase. Which means the Blasters now have an efficient tank, as the Dwarf damage is going to be crazy.
A WS on that same team would have a 70% resistance to all, at that point you could be a Hum form tanker or a Blanker = Blaster that can take aggro.
Note: not sure on inherents so it could be reversed but there is the point.
I like the HEATs inherent way more than the VEATs
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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Kheldians experience a very fleeting version of this when they get their Nova form, and realize that they can safely kite & blast their way through missions while their fellow heroes are still crawling on the ground like worms. But reality sets in soon thereafter, when you are mezzed & dropped from the sky for the first time.
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This no longer happens with the toggles not dropping change of last winter. Now you just hang out up in the air mezzed.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I'd argue that a VEAT doesn't really mature until around 30 or so - while level 24 is a huge change in the way they play, both Soldiers and Widows (especially Widows) have a "power crunch" between 24 and 30. That is to say, a lot of Really Good Stuff becomes available in a short time and it's difficult to fit it in, so you've got to keep moving a few levels to get and slot those awesome powers (Mind Link, Foresight, Mask Presence, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something, in the case of a Night Widow). There are very few "oh, skip this" powers in a VEAT's arsenal - combine that with not having an inherent travel power, and you get a character that's tough to pick powers for, much like it's tough to effectively distribute slots on a triform Kheldian.
Kheldians seem to mature later (Warshades especially - level 39 is usually a good point because it means you'll have a well-slotted Eclipse), but as others have said: VEATs are force multipliers. They bring along defense, tohit, and damage buffs for the entire team. Kheldians are essentially a "dynamic teammate," someone that can fill any role at a moment's notice (sometimes I'll just switch into Dwarf, fire off a taunt, and then change to Nova and blast while the mobs are still aggroed on me). I love my VEATs, and I love my Khelds (though I'll admit I deleted my first PB because I knew it'd never get to the level of awesome my Warshade was, I rolled a new one recently for PvP purposes; and I do not have a Fortunata because after the I13 PvP changes I didn't really feel like trying one), but if I had to choose my favorite, it'd be my Warshade. There's something pretty awesome about always being at 85% resistance and having nearly-capped tohit and damage, all without external buffs. I prefer Warshade -> Night Widow -> Crab -> Bane.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
SOAs clearly outclassed Kheldians at launch of Issue 12. But the Issue 13 buffs to Khelds brought them up to par and perhaps beyond. The inherent is now the best in the game and damage was boosted enough to make Kheldians unstoppable on any large team. My Warshade barely even needs eclipse anymore, except for Psionic AVs when teamed or solo before an EB battle. Black Dwarf Mire is now one of the game's best PBAOEs. The list of improvements was vast.
So if you haven't played your Khelds since i13, it's time you did.
PRTECTR4EVR
Generally...
Khelds < SoA in teams
Khelds > SoA solo
Of course we have freakish exceptions in Fortunatas and double-mire warshades at the end game.
Ok, I never said you get the attack chain at level 1-10 did I?, the point being that its way more fun than the villainous counter parts. That attack chain was an example why for me in MY OPINION, they have more diversed playstyle. You suffered through 38 levels, but obviously YMMV, did I really need to put that part? I thought it was common place to assume 1-20 is grueling let alone 22-38 for every class. Overall I find the kheldians to be more fun to play.
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The key difference between a Kheld & a VEAT is that VEAT's start out with Mez protection + a minor version of health/stamina as an inherent power. They then suffer for about 14 levels or so until they start building up their team buffs & defensive abilities. After that, you grind for another 10 levels or so as lowly soldier/widow until you hit 24 - at which point your "I Win" button is installed.
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False, the key difference, are the forms, Nova helps with the end mod and higher dps at lvl 6...and dwarf pretty much makes you a tank at lvl 20. Slotted these forms are very formidable in battle.
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Kheldians experience a very fleeting version of this when they get their Nova form, and realize that they can safely kite & blast their way through missions while their fellow heroes are still crawling on the ground like worms. But reality sets in soon thereafter, when you are mezzed & dropped from the sky for the first time. That's the point where the rubber meets the road, and the real challenge begins. The Kheld lovers will perservere & reach heights of glory - while the fair weather players will drop out in disgust & play something more rewarding.
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As opposed to what? grinding a VEAT to 26 with nothing but Leadership pool power rip offs till you get a decent aoe chain going with venom grenade + frag grenade + Call pets chain. And thats at level 38, or you can pummel your way into the mid levels.The OM is nice but as a shade I get two "explosions" by lvl 38, pets included. So thats a tank form, a blaster form, two "booms" and pets....oh I almost forgot eclipse.... a Res ALL.
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VEAT's get an extremely utilitarian inherent ability - Khelians get a crappy inherent + travel powers
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Wait so getting your damaged increased for every scrapper and blaster is bad?, how about your resistance increased for every tanker and defender, or mes prot for every troller?. And having a travel power at lvl 1 is bad?....since when?, have you ever played a kheldian? or did you hit a mid level and stop?.
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Kheldians get 3 forms - VEAT's get a bonus costume slot with a uniform
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You just compared ppowerful forms with a bonus costume....I think you've answered all my questions about playing a kheldian right there.
Lastly, if you want to see Khelds solo well, you can check any youtube vid, the same can apply to PVP, having the ability to solo is shared with many other AT's so its pretty much a moot point. Kheldians don'r need leadership powers as Primaries to be good, they also don't need an inherent as broken as "Conditioning", every Veat I see, I included, have stam.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Khelds < SoA in teams
Khelds > SoA solo
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False, I play my Kheldians efficiently, especially when damage dealers join my team. I make sure to be on big teams with one or more Dps, so I'm usually doing heavy dmg throught the battle. Quasar and Unchain Essence have proven to devour mobs better than most blasters. Peacebringers are doing supreme to extreme dmg by level 10...making them DPS power houses from lvl 6 on. Secondly Soloing is a Moot point as nearly every AT can solo.
In teams Kheld shine more for the boost they receive from each teammate, so I would have to go with them on teams. The forms alone give them far more diversity in teams then SoA's.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Lastly, if you want to see Khelds solo well, you can check any youtube vid, the same can apply to PVP, having the ability to solo is shared with many other AT's so its pretty much a moot point. Kheldians don'r need leadership powers as Primaries to be good, they also don't need an inherent as broken as "Conditioning", every Veat I see, I included, have stam.
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Conditioning is actually pretty dang useful. It's not a super high value, true. However the boost is nice. I picked up stamina on my crab since I'll be running more toggles, and love using the vet attacks too (which are end hogs).
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Maybe I'm not playing my two Kheldians correctly... but the SoAs seem to become much, much, MUCH better (than Kheldians) when they hit level 24. I've seen what a PB or WS can do when teamed with just the right Archetypes, and it's great. But SoA get team-friendly powers and are absolutely beastly solo (an easily soft-cappable Widow comes to mind). And with dual builds, the SoA get two archetypes in one; something that makes Kheldians "epic" (granted SoA can't change right then and there).
I like Kheldians, their concept is more user friendly than the SoA... but is there any reason to suspect that Kheldians could ever be thought of as equal to the SoA?
And will Kheldians ever get REAL dev attention again?