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I've seen my fare share of Lv50 Fortunatas that faceplanted during each and every mission of the many ITF's I've done both on my Lv50 TriFormShade and Lv50 TriFormPB.
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I've had the same experience with my Level 50 Warshade, Fort, and Crab. The Warshade is by far more survivable against enemies with defense debuffs simply because of the perma capped resistance to all but psi.
After i13, my Warshade "feels" more powerful solo and an in teams than either of my SOAs, unless I'm on a team with more than one SOA and then it's a tossup. +10% res/+20% dam per teammate is basically perma godmode with no downtime. But you are right, that Khelds can't be as passive as an SOA. My shade needs to draw aggro through damage/taunt in order to protect my teammates. Sometimes I even have to pull aggro off squishy tanks.
In the end, the HEATs and VEATs are now both EPIC so there is no need to buff either of them. Although Khelds do need some loving when it comes to the ease of form shifting. Not everyone is a macro/bind master.
PRTECTR4EVR
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In the end, the HEATs and VEATs are now both EPIC so there is no need to buff either of them. Although Khelds do need some loving when it comes to the ease of form shifting. Not everyone is a macro/bind master.
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How about if the game came with pre-made templates, prepared by the community, that would make Kheldian tri-form gameplay easier?! 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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...anyone who has played both ATs knows that SoAs have more tools to force multiply and control which makes them actually improve the overall team's performance considerably.
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Well, I haven't played VEATs past Lv24, I simply can't stand them for conceptual reasons, at least at the moment, but just by looking at their power-sets, it's obvious that VEATs are meant (as in designed) to be a passive pillar of strength that while enabling and facilitating others to fight for them, should not be taken face to face with the heavies.
Kheldians on the other hand... are meant to be prime warriors who never need to hide behind others and send others to fight for them. If you think otherwise, I invite you to run some Invincible Malta/Carnie missions with the Umbra Illuminati.
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Bane spiders are really the only squishy SoA branch. Crabs get a rather large +Res toggle and Widows in general can get themselves to the softcap for Melee defense with SO and no elude. This of course complements the overly aggressive playstyle of all the SoA branches.
Both ATs honestly dish out about the same levels of damage when they want to, it's just that having force multiplying buffs/debuffs put SoAs a significant step ahead in teams that really the kheld inherent just can't keep up with. Not that it really needs to though.
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Both ATs honestly dish out about the same levels of damage when they want to, it's just that having force multiplying buffs/debuffs put SoAs a significant step ahead in teams that really the kheld inherent just can't keep up with. Not that it really needs to though.
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And isn't that how the Epic AT's should behave respectively of their sides?
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Both ATs honestly dish out about the same levels of damage when they want to, it's just that having force multiplying buffs/debuffs put SoAs a significant step ahead in teams that really the kheld inherent just can't keep up with. Not that it really needs to though.
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And isn't that how the Epic AT's should behave respectively of their sides?
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yes
I have both a level 50 Widow and a level 50 Warshade, both heavily IO'ed out, both extreamly effectively built for their respective AT's.
There is no doubt in my mind my shade outperforms the widow in 90 out of 100 missions both solo and on teams, and not just by a small margine...
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
I personaly like my SoA a bit more, while others prefer Kheld.
The buffs that they got not to long ago really evened them out, solo wise and team wise. It's when you start to stack the leadership toggles together that SoA start to take the lead while teaming.
I'm talking of a basic IO build. With IO's, they both start destroying gobs and gobs of mobs, even while solo. 
IMO of course. 
I completely respect that Mngwa.
I would be totaly lying if I claimed to not be biased on the whole Heat vs Veat topic, but it completely ruffles my tentacles when people come into these things with the "Veats are obviously superior in design and effectiveness of play" philosophy, or worse yet the attempts to get the developers to change the Kheldians into another "Toggle it and forget it, immune to every type of status effect in game, Checkers level AT."
Kheldians are Kheldians and should be played as such. Not yet another scrapper/tank/controller/blaster/defender knock off. We have our own style.
Thank you but no. I'll stick with Chess.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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I have both a level 50 Widow and a level 50 Warshade, both heavily IO'ed out, both extreamly effectively built for their respective AT's.
There is no doubt in my mind my shade outperforms the widow in 90 out of 100 missions both solo and on teams, and not just by a small margine...
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My fortunata and crab feel far more effective on teams compared to my tri-form shade. Venom Grenade and Mind Link rock.
I admit perma-Mind Link on a Defence based toon is very nice, and I have not ever tried Venom Grenade, but i still prefer my Eclipse, Mire, squid form, and 3 pets for dealing massive aoe damage.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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I completely respect that Mngwa.
I would be totaly lying if I claimed to not be biased on the whole Heat vs Veat topic, but it completely ruffles my tentacles when people come into these things with the "Veats are obviously superior in design and effectiveness of play" philosophy, or worse yet the attempts to get the developers to change the Kheldians into another "Toggle it and forget it, immune to every type of status effect in game, Checkers level AT."
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Veats are superior to Heats when it comes to teaming. They were designed around it, and do a very good job doing it. Its pretty much a given.
The devs made mistakes when they made the Heats, and when they started with the Veats, they learned from the mistakes. Toggle em up, and they are good to go. Some like it, some don't.
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Kheldians are Kheldians and should be played as such. Not yet another scrapper/tank/controller/blaster/defender knock off. We have our own style.
Thank you but no. I'll stick with Chess.
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And Veats shouldn't be played like stalker/brute/dom/corr/mms either. They have their own style, same as Heats.
About the checkers thing, well, you aren't immune to everything. I died the other day on my softcapped Bane to even level Cims because they stacked a metric ton of defense debuffs before I could hop away. I'm sure a resist capped WS could have handled it easy, or a PB in LF.
Every character in this games takes strategy.
They are very similar now, no matter which way you cut it. In some aspects, Kheld>>>SoA, others, SoA>>>Kheld.
Just chose which one you want and tear open someones esophagus.
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They are very similar now, no matter which way you cut it. In some aspects, Kheld>>>SoA, others, SoA>>>Kheld.
*
Just chose which one you want and tear open someones esophagus.
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Our work here is done then, lets go and play
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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They are very similar now, no matter which way you cut it. In some aspects, Kheld>>>SoA, others, SoA>>>Kheld.
*
Just chose which one you want and tear open someones esophagus.
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Our work here is done then, lets go and play
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Aw yea!
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I admit perma-Mind Link on a Defence based toon is very nice, and I have not ever tried Venom Grenade, but i still prefer my Eclipse, Mire, squid form, and 3 pets for dealing massive aoe damage.
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Venom Grenade is a ranged radial aoe that hits for 54.6 base toxic damage and applies a -20% res debuff. Easily one of the best AoEs in the entire game and it only has a 24 second recharge and 11.9 end cost.
I haven't played a VEAT yet (my brute is at 20 now), but my Khelds are pain in the butt to play. My WS even more so than my PB.
I run a triform with my WS, and in the course of one battle, I'll switch forms several times, mire a couple of times, try to pick out dead bodies to use Unchain Essence and to get my pets out, then when its over, drop back to human form so I can use Stygian Circle to heal myself. It's alot of work, but it's usually pretty fun.
After playing my kheld for a couple of hours though, I'll have to switch toons to my blaster or brute so I can go back to not thinking for a little while.
-40% to toxic.
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After playing my kheld for a couple of hours though, I'll have to switch toons to my blaster or brute so I can go back to not thinking for a little while.
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Sounds to me like it's working as intended then
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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I don't get it... wasn't it already decided and agreed-on that VEATs were meant to be easier to handle, and less frustrating than HEATs?
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Come on, Lord Xenite. You should know better.
Just because something is right, and we all agree on it doesn't mean we can't continue to argue pointlessly about it on the forums.
What would you have us do? Make all the threads into constructive game information? That's crazy talk.
Why do I do do do things I do
Nobody was ever there for me to talk to
Once I was youngster, pure and true
Now I'm running with a sick, sick crew.
/e stands ashamed in corner.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
/e stands ashamed in corner.
[/ QUOTE ]
at least your avatar isn't horrifying.
...
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
SoA's hands down. I have a lvl 46 huntsman and its been a non stop excursion in asskickery. Solo a kheld if you want a challenge or a nasty headache. I also have a lvl 32 lvl Fort and shes fun to solo. Sorry to be down on khelds but they need work if they want to compete with SoA. Granted improvements have been made and I happy they were made.
You said it yourself, "Solo a Kheld if you want a challenge", I'd change the "or" to an "and" and complete your quote: "and a nasty headache"... because quite frankly, Kheldians are demanding and you have to pay attention and the slacking room isn't very big, if at all... but what's wrong with have one AT that's actually a bit of a challenge?!
By the way... I find VEATs very challenging... to my patience. I get too antsy when I play them because they seem too boring for me, so I started a new Widow last night, here's hoping she lasts and doesn't get deleted.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
You said it yourself, "Solo a Kheld if you want a challenge", I'd change the "or" to an "and" and complete your quote: "and a nasty headache"... because quite frankly, Kheldians are demanding and you have to pay attention and the slacking room isn't very big, if at all... but what's wrong with have one AT that's actually a bit of a challenge?!
By the way... I find VEATs very challenging... to my patience. I get too antsy when I play them because they seem too boring for me, so I started a new Widow last night, here's hoping she lasts and doesn't get deleted.
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Khelds really aren't a challenge to play. Try playing a solo defender, now there is a true test of patience with their awful damage.
[ QUOTE ]
...anyone who has played both ATs knows that SoAs have more tools to force multiply and control which makes them actually improve the overall team's performance considerably.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I haven't played VEATs past Lv24, I simply can't stand them for conceptual reasons, at least at the moment, but just by looking at their power-sets, it's obvious that VEATs are meant (as in designed) to be a passive pillar of strength that while enabling and facilitating others to fight for them, should not be taken face to face with the heavies.
Kheldians on the other hand... are meant to be prime warriors who never need to hide behind others and send others to fight for them. If you think otherwise, I invite you to run some Invincible Malta/Carnie missions with the Umbra Illuminati.
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati