It's been my experience that for SoA's to shine in teams they need merely stand there, for Kheldians to shine in teams... they need to be all over the place, YMMV of course, but to me that's the big difference right there.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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You seem to forget that SoAs boost the entire team's damage, tohit, and defense.
Let's assume it's just 1 Bane and 7 blasters and another separate team of 1 WS and 7 blasters.
1 bane provides 15% dmg, 15.6% Tohit, and 15.6% Def to the entire team. 8 people benefit so that's 120% dmg, tohit, and def being distributed. Since it's 3 different buffs it's 360% total benefit.
1 WS on a team of 8 blasters gets 20% dmg buff per blaster. that's 7 times 20% which is 140%.
Sorry but SoAs are superior in teams than Kheldians here.
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the following pretty much only applies to Human Only Khelds - Form Khelds can't keep toggles running...
What a lot of people fail to realize it that even though Khelds get the same amount of power slots as other ATs, they get travel powers for free. That's 2 extra slots they can use for more powers that other ATs have to used just to get around.
So, I've taken one of those slots and got Assault from Leadership. Not only does my team buff me, but I also buff them, using one of the extra slots they don't have. I almost used my extra 'free slot' to get Maneuvers, but wanted a Kheld power more (we got sooooo many cool ones)
Khelds (Human) can be team buffers if they choose to be (via Leadership) and it doesn't cost us any extra that it does your SoA.
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You seem to forget that SoAs boost the entire team's damage, tohit, and defense.
Let's assume it's just 1 Bane and 7 blasters and another separate team of 1 WS and 7 blasters.
1 bane provides 15% dmg, 15.6% Tohit, and 15.6% Def to the entire team. 8 people benefit so that's 120% dmg, tohit, and def being distributed. Since it's 3 different buffs it's 360% total benefit.
1 WS on a team of 8 blasters gets 20% dmg buff per blaster. that's 7 times 20% which is 140%.
Sorry but SoAs are superior in teams than Kheldians here.
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the following pretty much only applies to Human Only Khelds - Form Khelds can't keep toggles running...
What a lot of people fail to realize it that even though Khelds get the same amount of power slots as other ATs, they get travel powers for free. That's 2 extra slots they can use for more powers that other ATs have to used just to get around.
So, I've taken one of those slots and got Assault from Leadership. Not only does my team buff me, but I also buff them, using one of the extra slots they don't have. I almost used my extra 'free slot' to get Maneuvers, but wanted a Kheld power more (we got sooooo many cool ones)
Khelds (Human) can be team buffers if they choose to be (via Leadership) and it doesn't cost us any extra that it does your SoA.
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Hmm, so you want to toss in leadership pool as well. Well SoAs can choose to double stack those as well and for higher base buff values than kheldians.
Kheldians do just fine on teams but it's silly to claim they are better than SoAs on teams. That's like saying brutes are better on teams than corruptors...
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...Hmm, so you want to toss in leadership pool as well. Well SoAs can choose to double stack those as well and for higher base buff values than kheldians.
Kheldians do just fine on teams but it's silly to claim they are better than SoAs on teams. That's like saying brutes are better on teams than corruptors...
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Well, yes, SoA's can double up their team buffage using Leadership. Do alot of them do that? And what are they giving up to do so? 5 or 6 slots devoted to team buffage (adding together SoA toggles and leadership toggles) is indeed nice, but you are trading off something else to get those leadership toggles...
I'm saying that a Kheld effectively *isn't* trading off anything to get Leadership toggles, since they get two extra slots more that other AT's to use at they see fit, because they have inate Travel powers they don't have to waste slots on. And while their Leadership buffage isn't as strong as an SoA's, the Kheld is bringing more to the table personally because she's getting buffed out the wazoo from her team.
Finally, I'm not really saying Khelds equal SoA on teams, but I am suggesting it could be a lot closer if more Khelds took leadership. That doesn't happen that much, though, because of Form Detoggling and because there's so many other powers that Khelds want. My Human PB, however, is buffing her teams constantly thru Leadership.
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Well, yes, SoA's can double up their team buffage using Leadership. Do alot of them do that? And what are they giving up to do so? 5 or 6 slots devoted to team buffage (adding together SoA toggles and leadership toggles) is indeed nice, but you are trading off something else to get those leadership toggles...
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Same thing for any kheld that picks up leadership pool, except they also don't get team enhancing abilities like venom grenade, surveillance, and mind link in addition to the Tatical Training.
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Well, yes, SoA's can double up their team buffage using Leadership. Do alot of them do that? And what are they giving up to do so? 5 or 6 slots devoted to team buffage (adding together SoA toggles and leadership toggles) is indeed nice, but you are trading off something else to get those leadership toggles...
I'm saying that a Kheld effectively *isn't* trading off anything to get Leadership toggles, since they get two extra slots more that other AT's to use at they see fit, because they have inate Travel powers they don't have to waste slots on. And while their Leadership buffage isn't as strong as an SoA's, the Kheld is bringing more to the table personally because she's getting buffed out the wazoo from her team.
Finally, I'm not really saying Khelds equal SoA on teams, but I am suggesting it could be a lot closer if more Khelds took leadership. That doesn't happen that much, though, because of Form Detoggling and because there's so many other powers that Khelds want. My Human PB, however, is buffing her teams constantly thru Leadership.
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Pretty much every SoA I see at level 50 have at least one power from the leadership pool. I myself on my Bane have Assault and Maneuvers, and would have fit in Vengeance or Tactics if I could have, but sadly, I just had to have a travel power. *grumble*
If you are going for a straight teaming build, the extra slots, power picks from the Leadership pool are very worth it.
I saw a pure Wolf with all the TT powers AND the Leadership powers. I didn't know whether to cry at the awesomeness or at the gimpyness of his build.
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Khelds < SoA in teams
Khelds > SoA solo
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False, I play my Kheldians efficiently, especially when damage dealers join my team. I make sure to be on big teams with one or more Dps, so I'm usually doing heavy dmg throught the battle. Quasar and Unchain Essence have proven to devour mobs better than most blasters. Peacebringers are doing supreme to extreme dmg by level 10...making them DPS power houses from lvl 6 on. Secondly Soloing is a Moot point as nearly every AT can solo.
In teams Kheld shine more for the boost they receive from each teammate, so I would have to go with them on teams. The forms alone give them far more diversity in teams then SoA's.
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You seem to forget that SoAs boost the entire team's damage, tohit, and defense.
Let's assume it's just 1 Bane and 7 blasters and another separate team of 1 WS and 7 blasters.
1 bane provides 15% dmg, 15.6% Tohit, and 15.6% Def to the entire team. 8 people benefit so that's 120% dmg, tohit, and def being distributed. Since it's 3 different buffs it's 360% total benefit.
1 WS on a team of 8 blasters gets 20% dmg buff per blaster. that's 7 times 20% which is 140%.
Sorry but SoAs are superior in teams than Kheldians here.
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And that one warshade can do some tanking where requred, run a stun aura to negate the threat of minions, stack disorient to negate bosses, as well as help kill groups super fast.
The SoA? They add one more damage dealer and some team buffs. Nice team buffs, but stilll not as versatile as the warshade you mentioned. If I had to pick one or the other for a team, and only got one of either? I'd go with a keld since a well played keld can be exactly what any given team needs, and change roles as team needs change.
Now, if I knew multiple people would be running leadership, or there's more then one SoA going to be coming then sure the SoA win out.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
To me, both Kheldians and SoAs represent different philosophical views about commanding the battlefield. Kheldians command the battlefield through leading by example, often risking their own hide, while SoAs, like a properly cliched Villain, command the battlefield by throwing their teammates into battle and buffing them through their various buffs while all they need do throw AoE's or mez enemies from the sidelines. Sort of like a Mastermind, but a lot more active without requiring pet micromanagement.
This of course does not prevent a Kheldian from playing as a timid Nova mini-blaster, or an SoA taking the front-line and tanking, but thematically, I'm very pleased with both, despite SoAs being lackluster due to my personal thematic views.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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And that one warshade can do some tanking where requred, run a stun aura to negate the threat of minions, stack disorient to negate bosses, as well as help kill groups super fast.
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And yet SoAs can consistently kill faster and have better controls and enough +Def stacking to negate the need for a tank at all.
*Stomps around sandbox*
Khelds are better cuz I say so! Nyaaahhh :P
Consistantly... kill... O.o... I assume you have actually played a tri-form warshade... right? Between my kelds and my SoA, the kelds tend to kill things at the same speed, or faster. Especially my warshade. And that's fighting more enemies to boot. But then, not every fight goes exactly as intended. Sometimes the excrement hits the fan. In such a situation what does a SoA do? They keep attacking and hoping that pure damage will solve everything.
What does my warshade do? Protects the team. If my WS is on a team with 7 blasters, I know I don't need to worry much about dealing damage. I dish it out with the best of them, but I know it's not my primary way of helping the team. I turn on the stun aura toggle and start keeping the enemies from hitting my squishy team mates. stunned enemies do zero damage after all.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Sometimes the excrement hits the fan. In such a situation what does a SoA do? They keep attacking and hoping that pure damage will solve everything.
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And... isn't that thematically fitting a Villain who's all about raw brute force? 
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What does my warshade do? Protects the team. If my WS is on a team with 7 blasters, I know I don't need to worry much about dealing damage. I dish it out with the best of them, but I know it's not my primary way of helping the team. I turn on the stun aura toggle and start keeping the enemies from hitting my squishy team mates. stunned enemies do zero damage after all.
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And... isn't this exactly how Heroes should be?! Especially Heroes that are supposed to be EPIC?!
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Consistantly... kill... O.o... I assume you have actually played a tri-form warshade... right? Between my kelds and my SoA, the kelds tend to kill things at the same speed, or faster. Especially my warshade. And that's fighting more enemies to boot. But then, not every fight goes exactly as intended. Sometimes the excrement hits the fan. In such a situation what does a SoA do? They keep attacking and hoping that pure damage will solve everything.
What does my warshade do? Protects the team. If my WS is on a team with 7 blasters, I know I don't need to worry much about dealing damage. I dish it out with the best of them, but I know it's not my primary way of helping the team. I turn on the stun aura toggle and start keeping the enemies from hitting my squishy team mates. stunned enemies do zero damage after all.
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It's amazing how you can continue talking about two ATs when you know nothing about one of them. You keep talking about how Kheldians can out control SoAs, but are completely ignorant of the numerous controls Fortunatas get.
funny how this parallels the defender and corruptor comparison topic where you admit to having never played a corruptor past lvl 12 and then go on about how you know in your heart that defenders are better. Really if you're going to compare two ATs at least play them both to at least lvl 40 before you open your mouth.
And yes, I have a lvl 46 tri-form warshade and lvl 50 bane and a lvl 43 widow.
I don't get it... wasn't it already decided and agreed-on that VEATs were meant to be easier to handle, and less frustrating than HEATs?
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Shes putting a 8 ft radius 2 mag stun against the controls a Fort gets.
lolwut?
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I don't get it... wasn't it already decided and agreed-on that VEATs were meant to be easier to handle, and less frustrating than HEATs?
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I guess, I never though the Khelds were very frustrating, once you got past the "they have more power picks for each level" thing it was rather easy to pick powers.
But slotting....ugh that was brutal. Even more so than my SoA.
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I don't get it... wasn't it already decided and agreed-on that VEATs were meant to be easier to handle, and less frustrating than HEATs?
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I guess, I never though the Khelds were very frustrating, once you got past the "they have more power picks for each level" thing it was rather easy to pick powers.
*
But slotting....ugh that was brutal. Even more so than my SoA.
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You see? No slotting issues, no forms to worry about, no worries about mez-protection, no worries about "what am I bringing to a team?", no worries about power-pool restrictions, no worries about APP/PPP... all in all, SoA's are much less frustrating, especially if you love God Mode toggles at Lv50. 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Consistantly... kill... O.o... I assume you have actually played a tri-form warshade... right? Between my kelds and my SoA, the kelds tend to kill things at the same speed, or faster. Especially my warshade. And that's fighting more enemies to boot. But then, not every fight goes exactly as intended. Sometimes the excrement hits the fan. In such a situation what does a SoA do? They keep attacking and hoping that pure damage will solve everything.
What does my warshade do? Protects the team. If my WS is on a team with 7 blasters, I know I don't need to worry much about dealing damage. I dish it out with the best of them, but I know it's not my primary way of helping the team. I turn on the stun aura toggle and start keeping the enemies from hitting my squishy team mates. stunned enemies do zero damage after all.
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It's amazing how you can continue talking about two ATs when you know nothing about one of them. You keep talking about how Kheldians can out control SoAs, but are completely ignorant of the numerous controls Fortunatas get.
funny how this parallels the defender and corruptor comparison topic where you admit to having never played a corruptor past lvl 12 and then go on about how you know in your heart that defenders are better. Really if you're going to compare two ATs at least play them both to at least lvl 40 before you open your mouth.
And yes, I have a lvl 46 tri-form warshade and lvl 50 bane and a lvl 43 widow.
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it's amazing how you can consistantly talk without reading comprehension! At no point had I claimed that a warshade can out control a fortuna. You gave examples of the venom grenades and frag grenades and bane powers. That implies Soldier of Arachnos. And when comparing them vs a well played keld, I'll take the keld any day of the week.
Your claiming I've got no experience with the VEATs... That's funny considering I was there on test server testing them out before they went live. I'd leveled both the Spider and widow to level 30 normally, then they did a bump to 50 and I did testing at 50 for several weeks. I worked on both night widow and fortuna builds. Bane spiders I don't really have much experience with yet, but I do intend to try them out too. Likely on test first in case I don't like the bane spider play style.
Claiming I don't know what VEAT's can bring to the table? That's a laugh.
Your right, I haven't really played a peacebringer to 50. Actually my PB is level 6 still. My warshade is stalled at 32 right now because I'm mainly working on my crab. Then I'll work on my widow for a while before returning to my warshade. No, I don't have eclipse yet, but already I know what all can be done with a well played warshade.
I will say this again, and you had better pay attention and stop disregarding it as fantasy. I know what a fortuna and widow bring to the table. I know what crab spiders bring to the table. And honestly? I feel warshades bring as much if not more.
But let me guess, you can't stand anyone having an opinion not your own still? Because that's what this entire thread is. OPINIONS vs OPINIONS! Amazing isn't it? That your arguing so rudely trying to prove everyone claiming kelds are good is lying due to SoA being better in every way.
I've stated my opinion on this topic multiple times in this thread. Read this very clarefully Turbo. Maybe you'll finally grasp this.
Both SoA and Kelds are good, but for different reasons. Both bring a lot to the team if played well.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Shes putting a 8 ft radius 2 mag stun against the controls a Fort gets.
lolwut?
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I don't get it, you read what I write, and don't understand it? If I had to pick between one VEAT and one HEAT and I could only have one, I would personally take the HEAT because if played well they can fill in for whatever role the team needs. VEATs are... damage dealers. They go about it in different ways, and fortunas get some control too. But they are still damage dealers.
For the team of 7 blasters Turbo used as an example then I would definitely want a warshade. Would get another damage dealer, good crowd control, and the ability to tank if required without having to do an extreme build or dip into pool powers.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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You see? No slotting issues, no forms to worry about, no worries about mez-protection, no worries about "what am I bringing to a team?", no worries about power-pool restrictions, no worries about APP/PPP... all in all, SoA's are much less frustrating, especially if you love God Mode toggles at Lv50.
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I never said I had slotting issues, its just ALOT less than my PB.
I can concur with everything else 
No reason to get upset over the issue or the exchange of opinions. Power analysis though, supports the notion that a well played Fortunata dishes out more varied type of controls with much less effort. Between having a ranged TAoE Hold (Total Domination), AoE Disorient (Psychic Wail) and last but not least a PBAoE Confuse (Aura of Confusion), I would expect a Fort. to control the battlefield with much less effort than a Human-only WS who runs with constant Inky Aspect, spamming Gravitic Emanations, Gravity Well and Unchain Essence.
Over time, the Fort. dishes out more control with less effort and is much safer to play than a Warshade, especially consider that the Fort. has single-target ranged Confuse and Hold but also constant and consistent mez-protection of its own both teamed and solo.
Like I said before... very villainous, very brute raw force.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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I don't get it, you read what I write, and don't understand it? If I had to pick between one VEAT and one HEAT and I could only have one, I would personally take the HEAT because if played well they can fill in for whatever role the team needs. VEATs are... damage dealers. They go about it in different ways, and fortunas get some control too. But they are still damage dealers.
For the team of 7 blasters Turbo used as an example then I would definitely want a warshade. Would get another damage dealer, good crowd control, and the ability to tank if required without having to do an extreme build or dip into pool powers.
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SoA might not be able to tank, but they can take point for the alpha fairly well. Crabs are arguably Tankerminds. Forts can lock down a spawn before they are even a threat. And if you are using a team with 7 Blasters, all the VEATs have to do is to survive the alpha, then the mob is pretty much dead anyway, assumming good player,decent builds, etc etc.
I think the only way a WS is gonna be a better tank is VS a AV, which it might not help anyway. The AVs gonna wipe the floor with a team with no debuffs, buffs, and controls.
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I don't get it... wasn't it already decided and agreed-on that VEATs were meant to be easier to handle, and less frustrating than HEATs?
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Well I already stated for the record that Khelds contribute fine to teams, but anyone who has played both ATs knows that SoAs have more tools to force multiply and control which makes them actually improve the overall team's performance considerably.
Both Kheldian AT's can tank. Both eventually are designed to fail as tanks against hard hitting single-targets unless they have team-support. For a WS to [u]completely[u] lockdown a spawn, the WS actually has to be inside the spawn and use at least two to four powers. For a PB to lockdown a spawn, it would have to again be inside the spawn and use at least two or more powers.
There's little doubt in my mind that a Fort. is the superior controller here, but I've seen my fare share of Lv50 Fortunatas that faceplanted during each and every mission of the many ITF's I've done both on my Lv50 TriFormShade and Lv50 TriFormPB.
The Fort. would lie there on the ground, and sometimes when I had the time and paid attention, my TriFormShade would run/fly to a quite corner, TP her corpse and resurrect her just in time to jump back into combat and tank some Cyclops or Minotaur before someone else dropped.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Khelds < SoA in teams
Khelds > SoA solo
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False, I play my Kheldians efficiently, especially when damage dealers join my team. I make sure to be on big teams with one or more Dps, so I'm usually doing heavy dmg throught the battle. Quasar and Unchain Essence have proven to devour mobs better than most blasters. Peacebringers are doing supreme to extreme dmg by level 10...making them DPS power houses from lvl 6 on. Secondly Soloing is a Moot point as nearly every AT can solo.
In teams Kheld shine more for the boost they receive from each teammate, so I would have to go with them on teams. The forms alone give them far more diversity in teams then SoA's.
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You seem to forget that SoAs boost the entire team's damage, tohit, and defense.
Let's assume it's just 1 Bane and 7 blasters and another separate team of 1 WS and 7 blasters.
1 bane provides 15% dmg, 15.6% Tohit, and 15.6% Def to the entire team. 8 people benefit so that's 120% dmg, tohit, and def being distributed. Since it's 3 different buffs it's 360% total benefit.
1 WS on a team of 8 blasters gets 20% dmg buff per blaster. that's 7 times 20% which is 140%.
Sorry but SoAs are superior in teams than Kheldians here.