What would be a good Hero Mastermind?

I think being sinister yet heroic is just plain awesome on its own.

Even Diablo II has heroic Necromancers.

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I'd say that a Necromancy MM would likely NOT be Heroic.

I would say that a /Traps Mastermind with Detonation and a non-robot primary would likely be seen as NOT heroic.

...That's about all I can think of, really.

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Too many alts to list.

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The suicide bomber power in Traps is especially thematically inappropriate for Heroes.

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That depends on how fanatic they are for the cause, or how important it is. Sacrificing yourself to stop the evil whatever isn't all that unusual in fiction. If the RP aspects bother you, just tell yourself they are willingly sacrificing themselves, while an evil mastermind sets the bomb off too fast for them to escape just to get his jollies.

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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth

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What would a Hero Mastermind have for support troops?
Cops? Community Activists? Guardian Angels?

Seriously though anyone have any good suggestions for what a Hero MM would look like. I wouldn't mind trying one out on the Blue side.

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Trying out a Hero MM? That could be a trick due to the fact that there aren't any. And based on your suggestions, you seem to acknowledge one would need to be created.

<-- Confused.

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I'd say that a Necromancy MM would likely NOT be Heroic.

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Necromancers are pretty often the good guys in various games (Guild Wars is one prime example). Hell, if you've got a problem with necromancy, you should probably look at Dark Miasma's Dark Servant first... which, as per the description, is an UNWILLING entity.

Summoning the dead (or even just the dead's body's, sans mind or spirit) is as evil as you decide it is. As already been said, it'd be trivial to RP that you're summoning fallen Heroes that are willing to continue fighting for justice.

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I would say that a /Traps Mastermind with Detonation and a non-robot primary would likely be seen as NOT heroic.

[/ QUOTE ]Making the ultimate sacrafice is quite heroic. You could just as easily RP that it's the minion's idea, as it is yours.


Any of the Mastermind sets could easily be passed off by as Heroic is you decide on the right motivations, and fill out the proper parts of the backstory and origin. A cunning RPer could even make controvery about their henchmen part of their backstory (maybe they once turned to a life of crime due to the harrassment they received about them, but has now turned back to good?).

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[ QUOTE ]
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What would a Hero Mastermind have for support troops?
Cops? Community Activists? Guardian Angels?

Seriously though anyone have any good suggestions for what a Hero MM would look like. I wouldn't mind trying one out on the Blue side.

[/ QUOTE ]
Trying out a Hero MM? That could be a trick due to the fact that there aren't any. And based on your suggestions, you seem to acknowledge one would need to be created.

<-- Confused.

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Might I point you to Going Rogue, City of Heroes/Villains upcoming expansion, where side switching and a morality system will be the primary centerpieces (as well as Praetorian earth!).

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Soldiers (not Mercs)

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Aren't Wyvern mercs? And they're heroic, aren't they?
So why not mercs?

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The Wyvern are somewhat shady Mercs... they were brought together by Manticore to do jobs that other hero groups weren't willing to take care of (i.e. using more force and stronger tactics to get the job done, even when other "heroes" didn't think the job needed doing yet).

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[ QUOTE ]
What would a Hero Mastermind have for support troops?
Cops? Community Activists? Guardian Angels?

Seriously though anyone have any good suggestions for what a Hero MM would look like. I wouldn't mind trying one out on the Blue side.

[/ QUOTE ]
Trying out a Hero MM? That could be a trick due to the fact that there aren't any. And based on your suggestions, you seem to acknowledge one would need to be created.

<-- Confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Might I point you to Going Rogue, City of Heroes/Villains upcoming expansion, where side switching and a morality system will be the primary centerpieces (as well as Praetorian earth!).

[/ QUOTE ]
I was well aware of GR. However, side-switching as far as I know it, will not change the fact that the MM is still using Villain powers as a hero, not new Hero powers as a Hero MM. The OP seemed to imply that somehow the MM would change into a hero MM (at least in the way I read it) not a villain who is now doing a hero's work.

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What would a Hero Mastermind have for support troops?
Cops? Community Activists? Guardian Angels?

Seriously though anyone have any good suggestions for what a Hero MM would look like. I wouldn't mind trying one out on the Blue side.

[/ QUOTE ]
Trying out a Hero MM? That could be a trick due to the fact that there aren't any. And based on your suggestions, you seem to acknowledge one would need to be created.

<-- Confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Might I point you to Going Rogue, City of Heroes/Villains upcoming expansion, where side switching and a morality system will be the primary centerpieces (as well as Praetorian earth!).

[/ QUOTE ]
I was well aware of GR. However, side-switching as far as I know it, will not change the fact that the MM is still using Villain powers as a hero, not new Hero powers as a Hero MM. The OP seemed to imply that somehow the MM would change into a hero MM (at least I read it) not a villain who is now doing a hero's work.

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The OP seems to be wanting the Mastermind to suddenly magically transform by fluffy bunny magic when you switch sides (which isn't really a single action, but a process, and the point between 'neutral' and 'hero' might be quite vague).

I think this whole fluffy bunny transformation is unneeded, and really doesn't make all that much sense to begin with.

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The suicide bomber power in Traps is especially thematically inappropriate for Heroes.

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That depends on how fanatic they are for the cause, or how important it is. Sacrificing yourself to stop the evil whatever isn't all that unusual in fiction. If the RP aspects bother you, just tell yourself they are willingly sacrificing themselves, while an evil mastermind sets the bomb off too fast for them to escape just to get his jollies.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're going to cry out, "HENCHMEN #3! DON'T DO IT!" every time you use Detonation?

Because ORDERING one of your fanatic henchmen to become a suicide bomber isn't really considered heroic these days, and some people will get seriously offended.

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Too many alts to list.

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[ QUOTE ]
The suicide bomber power in Traps is especially thematically inappropriate for Heroes.

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends on how fanatic they are for the cause, or how important it is. Sacrificing yourself to stop the evil whatever isn't all that unusual in fiction. If the RP aspects bother you, just tell yourself they are willingly sacrificing themselves, while an evil mastermind sets the bomb off too fast for them to escape just to get his jollies.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're going to cry out, "HENCHMEN #3! DON'T DO IT!" every time you use Detonation?

Because ORDERING one of your fanatic henchmen to become a suicide bomber isn't really considered heroic these days, and some people will get seriously offended.

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Thanks to the wonders of the Medicom teleporation system, all he has to worry about is a smidgen of debt! In this game, no one dies. Unless you piss off Ghost Widow and she shoves her hand into your chest. Then you die. But other than that, no one dies. Yep, no one. Necromancers aren't too happy about this, that's why so many turned to crime


Case in point of another 'good' necromancer: Doctor Orpheus from the Venture Brothers

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I think this whole fluffy bunny transformation is unneeded, and really doesn't make all that much sense to begin with.

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That's kinda the angle I was trying to question... I guess I worded it very poorly.

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Case in point of another 'good' necromancer: Doctor Orpheus from the Venture Brothers

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I don't think you can use anything from that show as an example of anything but parody.

It acknowledges it's own ridiculousness as well as the ridiculousness that preceded it.

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Case in point of another 'good' necromancer: Doctor Orpheus from the Venture Brothers

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I don't think you can use anything from that show as an example of anything but parody.

It acknowledges it's own ridiculousness as well as the ridiculousness that preceded it.

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But he is a necromancer, as well as a good guy! The RP reasoning for him is quite sound

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The suicide bomber power in Traps is especially thematically inappropriate for Heroes.

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends on how fanatic they are for the cause, or how important it is. Sacrificing yourself to stop the evil whatever isn't all that unusual in fiction. If the RP aspects bother you, just tell yourself they are willingly sacrificing themselves, while an evil mastermind sets the bomb off too fast for them to escape just to get his jollies.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're going to cry out, "HENCHMEN #3! DON'T DO IT!" every time you use Detonation?

Because ORDERING one of your fanatic henchmen to become a suicide bomber isn't really considered heroic these days, and some people will get seriously offended.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, who is so sensitive that they would get offended by non-living graphics exploding on their monitors? If those people do they really need to step outside of their closed little worlds and realize it's just a game and no one was really hurt.

I'm shocked someone even suggested this. Honestly, what is the IQ lvl of someone who would get offended?

"OHH NO! YOU KILLED KENNY! YOU [censored]!"

I take it said person who get's insulted also writes letters to Comedy Central everytime Kenny bites it too.

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Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice

*others left off due to space issues

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Honestly, who is so sensitive that they would get offended by non-living graphics exploding on their monitors? If those people do they really need to step outside of their closed little worlds and realize it's just a game and no one was really hurt.

I'm shocked someone even suggested this. Honestly, what is the IQ lvl of someone who would get offended?

"OHH NO! YOU KILLED KENNY! YOU [censored]!"

I take it said person who get's insulted also writes letters to Comedy Central everytime Kenny bites it too.

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I think you are missing something here.

I don't think that anyone is getting "offended" in real life about pixels. Rather, those who RP have characters that would get offended by those things. In other words, the RPers would be mad that a hero is doing unheroic things not because they are actually grief striken by the loss, but because it breaks immersion and is unrealistic with respect to the genre.

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In other words, the RPers would be mad that a hero is doing unheroic things not because they are actually grief striken by the loss, but because it breaks immersion and is unrealistic with respect to the genre.

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They can [censored] off for not respecting the wide variety of comic books that aren't Golden/Silver Age.

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Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!

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[ QUOTE ]
Sacrificing yourself to stop the evil whatever isn't all that unusual in fiction. If the RP aspects bother you, just tell yourself they are willingly sacrificing themselves, while an evil mastermind sets the bomb off too fast for them to escape just to get his jollies.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're going to cry out, "HENCHMEN #3! DON'T DO IT!" every time you use Detonation?

Because ORDERING one of your fanatic henchmen to become a suicide bomber isn't really considered heroic these days, and some people will get seriously offended.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they get offended, too bad for them. And dying to stop the end of the world/the conquest of the world/end of someone else's world is quite heroic, and we do that all the time.

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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth

<qr>
By and large I think the powersets transfer over just fine without changing the concepts/names. Detonator's the only problem imo - I guess you could change that to Time Bomb (not sure how other */Traps players'd feel about that, but Detonator ain't exactly up there).

Mercs: Pretty neutral concept - just because you're a mercenary doesn't mean you can't be discriminating about who you work for, what jobs you take on, etc. Not as heroic as the ones doing it for free, but still has a place blueside. We even have in-game precendent: Hero Corps, heroes who are "selling their super-powered services to those willing to foot the bill".

Ninjas: Also relatively neutral - their methods may offend those with particularly strong/rigid codes of honour (i.e. trickery, stealth, espionage vs a straight up head on approach), but as long as they're fighting evil they don't fall outside the range of heroes already out there. I don't think of Samurai as being inherently more heroic/good either - I was under the impression their code of honour was more about loyalty/obedience than good/evil, and given the time period they're from I'm sure they carried out just as atrocious acts under (or because of) that code as any Ninja did.

Robots: totally neutral. I can't see any problems with them at all. I'd also be against putting blue-and-red flashing lights on top and calling them PPD bots as this unnecessarily constrains the character's backstory/theme.

Thugs: I'm pretty sure there's plenty of reformed thugs/criminals already present in the myriad backstories out there, both in-game and out. And the reformed criminal is pretty much the theme of Going Rogue. A street gang turned to fighting for good may or may not scrub up and change their outfit (I'd think most wouldn't), but either way they'd probably stick to the methods/powers they know (i.e. guns) to do the job, and they'd be just as at home there as the AR blasters.

Necros: The perceived morality of Necromancy varies greatly by the setting, and the different cultures within the setting. There's a pretty wide spectrum of heroes out there with similarly wide degrees to which they're accepted by their colleagues and the general populace. Definitely the hardest sell of the five, but I think there's room in Paragon for the shunned and distrusted Necromancer who nonetheless works to protect the city and foil the true villains.


And Bodyguard mode is also fairly neutral to my view. You can look at it as the mastermind cruelly putting their minions in harms way to save their own hide, or you can look at it as noble self sacrifice on the part of those following the mastermind. Or just as an abstraction of you gotta fight through the rest of the X-Men before you can get a decent shot off at Professor X (which is easier to explicitely depict in a comic/film than it is in a game, hence the abstraction).

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QR

I'm not sure what the issue with the detonator really is, anyway. I was searching for a TF2 comic that would fit this debate perfectly, but after 30ish minutes of looking I gave up.

In this comic, the Scout is on his "last HP" and the enemy is closing in. There's some dialogue between him and Demoman (Demoman has access to sticky grenades that detonate remotely) where Scout is basically telling him to cover him with the grenades. The last panel is him charging at the group of enemies, covered in 'nades. One logically assumes that he exploded, defeating the enemy force that would have surely won otherwise.

And people actually think this act isn't heroic?

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Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage

After seeing many comments about "too many Longbow" on redside I decided to see if I could go 1 to 50 without fighting any of Freedom Corps' finest.

So now I have a heroic MM - a Thugs/Traps who is a Longbow agent with an entourage of reformed gang members fighting the good fight. She won't fight her own people, though I'm still undecided on whether or not those shady Wyvern types are fair game.

I'm definitely not sure about Detonator. I might have to skip that... though when I was creating this character and read the description of that power I admit I lol'd.

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The way I explained necromancy leaves it pretty open for good or evil.

The soul enters the world with a body in which to interact with the physical world. As the body begins to degrade, the soul must eventually release itself from the body, and thus the body is mostly a tool, albeit, one necessary to interact with the physical realm. With enough force of will, a soul can manifest itself to interact with the physical world without the need of a body, often resulting in a Spirit, Spectre, Ghoul, Ghost, whatever you wish to call it. Others can re-enter uninhabited bodies, and the most powerful can enter and even force out the soul of another.

Necromancy works on the principal of binding souls to the will of the necromancer, and then forcing them into uninhabited bodies so that they can use them to whatever purpose they need. More powerful souls that do not need bodies take a more talented Necromancer to bind to them. A good Necromancer might only bind willing souls to him, or 'evil' souls to not only keep them in check, but force them under them to do good. Evil Necromancers would just bind whoever and do whatever. Therefore, Necromancers are a prime example of 'What you do with power defines who you are.'

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wait, Demon Summoning? I missed that one!

Okie I been gone for a year and came back for AE but, Demon Summoning???

(Now I gotta get back to my Bots/Storm AND roll up a Merc/Pain)

...so much to catch up with!

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wait, Demon Summoning? I missed that one!

Okie I been gone for a year and came back for AE but, Demon Summoning???

(Now I gotta get back to my Bots/Storm AND roll up a Merc/Pain)

...so much to catch up with!

[/ QUOTE ]Demon Summoning isn't in the game yet, but it's one of the coming power sets... along with Dual Pistols, the two are likely to make their appearance with the Going Rogue expansion pack (as the two siggies in that use those 2 power sets).

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A Hero Mastermind presents a bit of a difficulty because they work just the opposite way: they don't treat their men like expendables, they treat them with care and dignity.

[/ QUOTE ] Zapp Brannigan would disagree. From War is the H-Word when Zapp is talking to the soldiers about the planet they are attacking:

ZAPP
It's a desolate, ugly little planet
with absolutely no natural resources
or strategic value. Questions?


SOLDIER #1
Why is this godforsaken planet worth
dying for?


ZAPP
Don't ask me, you're the one who's going
to be dying.

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