What would be a good Hero Mastermind?

What would a Hero Mastermind have for support troops?
Cops? Community Activists? Guardian Angels?

Seriously though anyone have any good suggestions for what a Hero MM would look like. I wouldn't mind trying one out on the Blue side.

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Necromancy: Fallen Heroes that want to continue fighting the good fight, even postmortem. With hilarious results.
Mercenaries: *cough*Black Knights*cough*
Thugs: "We're taking back the street, Word Up yo!"
Ninjas: Shadows can be good!
Robots: They're freaking robots!
Demon Summoning: What could be more hilarious than forcing evil to do good?

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Thugs: "We're taking back the street, Word Up yo!"


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LOL good one!

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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

Masterminds dispose of their minions without a second thought. They are seen as completely expendable and this is properly reflected in the Villain Masterminds. A Hero Mastermind presents a bit of a difficulty because they work just the opposite way: they don't treat their men like expendables, they treat them with care and dignity. They care about their troops' fate. Unfortunately, this won't be reflected in game mechanics (as far as I know) like the Villain Mastermind approach is. That's what makes Hero Masterminds a bit difficult to take seriously (especially those with living human troops). The suicide bomber power in Traps is especially thematically inappropriate for Heroes.

It'd be nice to see some minor mechanics changes to Archetypes depending on what your alignment is. Most likely won't happen though.

Hero Dominators (sadists), Stalkers (assassins) and Corruptors (taking advantage of the weak) will also be thematically weird for Heroes. But Going Rogue is unavoidable, and does open up some interesting possibilities, so perhaps it's best not to analyze too deeply.

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The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.

Hero MM's?

Easy peasy...

Soldiers (not Mercs)
Police
Robots
Ninjas (they can be good too ya know)
Plants (like robots they are essentially non-sentient) <-- did I spell that right?
Golems or Constructs (think more Wizardly than robotic)

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Robots.

Toasters are expendable. People aren't.

And Heroes shouldn't play with Dead Things.

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[ QUOTE ]
Masterminds dispose of their minions without a second thought. They are seen as completely expendable and this is properly reflected in the Villain Masterminds. A Hero Mastermind presents a bit of a difficulty because they work just the opposite way: they don't treat their men like expendables, they treat them with care and dignity. They care about their troops' fate. Unfortunately, this won't be reflected in game mechanics (as far as I know) like the Villain Mastermind approach is. That's what makes Hero Masterminds a bit difficult to take seriously (especially those with living human troops). The suicide bomber power in Traps is especially thematically inappropriate for Heroes.

It'd be nice to see some minor mechanics changes to Archetypes depending on what your alignment is. Most likely won't happen though.

Hero Dominators (sadists), Stalkers (assassins) and Corruptors (taking advantage of the weak) will also be thematically weird for Heroes. But Going Rogue is unavoidable, and does open up some interesting possibilities, so perhaps it's best not to analyze too deeply.

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There are so many arguements to counter each of yours.

1. There are good masterminds. Think Hanibal in the A-team

2. Even the evil AT bonuses are still thematically appropriate as you are fighting crime. Just because I use the enemies weakend state to scourge him and defeat him faster doesnt make me bad, it makes me a faster do-gooder.

Not all good guys play by the rules. Batman for instance.

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Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice

*others left off due to space issues

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Hero Dominators (sadists), Stalkers (assassins) and Corruptors (taking advantage of the weak) will also be thematically weird for Heroes.

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Eh, while there's some mental adjustment necessary, it's pretty minor:

Dominators "dominating" their opponents is thematically very similar to Controllers "overpowering" their opponents, just with an extra "limit break" aspect.

Stalkers - using stealth and surprise to take out guards before they can even react in a Batmanesque (or just covert/spec ops types in less superhero focused settings) style. Maybe not "honourable" to the some of the more uncompromising direct-assault-only personal codes, but still well within the range of hero types out there.

Corruptors are just pressing the advantage, to put it in more neutral terms.

For Masterminds, depends how you play them I guess, whether you throw them away to absorb alphas, or try to keep them alive like they're a player character. I agree Detonator with human pets doesn't fit though.

There's also the whole not-everyone-gets-to-choose-how-their-powers-manifest-but-heroic-vs-villainy-is-about-what-they-use-them-for bit.

Could maybe do to change the text for Assassin Strike to Stealth Strike and Scourge to read Critical, but otherwise they fit Heroes about as well as the Heroic ATs do, imo.

(edit to add: and even using the villainous slant on their inherents, is any of it really worse than a hero giving the villains a dose of lethal radiation, or web grenading them then dousing them with napalm?)

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Re: Heroic necromancy: Summoning ghosts and spirits are more themely for heroes than skeletons and zombies.

If redemption tweaks an AT's powers, I'd like to see redeemed MM pets get a lot more survivability, but exact a heavy price when lost. Very long recharges, very high endurance costs might do it. Dropping the lowest tier of pets altogether in favor of a big buff/debuff power for the remaining pets might do it.

Also, the suicide bomb power has as much a chance of surviving unmodified going blueside as the touchy-feely heal-centric (as the devs play the set) Empathy did going redside.

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[ QUOTE ]
Masterminds dispose of their minions without a second thought. They are seen as completely expendable and this is properly reflected in the Villain Masterminds. A Hero Mastermind presents a bit of a difficulty because they work just the opposite way: they don't treat their men like expendables, they treat them with care and dignity. They care about their troops' fate.

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I know it's a little late to talk about a hero mastermind-equivalent AT, but it got me thinking about a MM-esque setup with less expendable minions. Like replacing bodyguard with an inverse-bodyguard that makes the MM more powerful based on how many of his allies are around, and with stronger basic attacks.

Come to think of it, it'd be a pretty easy way to variate the sideswapped ATs to just switch their inherents out. Two inherents for each AT, one hero and one villain. [/rambling]

EDIT: Or, what Rigel said and I failed to read.

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QR

Weatherby_Goode - "Heck, Carrion Creepers negates the knockdown from Carrion Creepers."

I like your idea too! Bodyguard does seem rather unheroic now that you bring it up.

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[ QUOTE ]
Necromancy: Fallen Heroes that want to continue fighting the good fight, even postmortem. With hilarious results.
Mercenaries: *cough*Black Knights*cough*
Thugs: "We're taking back the street, Word Up yo!"
Ninjas: Shadows can be good!
Robots: They're freaking robots!
Demon Summoning: What could be more hilarious than forcing evil to do good?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm of the opinion that the blue side Mastermind should be referred to as a Commander (or some other more generic version of the same.)
[*]Theurgist - Able to summon various accolytes, preists, and a Saint to assist with their defense of good and other white magics. (ne: Necromancy)
[*]Special Forces - This hero Commander operates within the law and helps to enforce it. (ne: Mercenaries)
[*]Vigilanties - Ordinary citizens who feel it is necessary to assist the neighborhood police Commander and have been Deputized so that they are operating within the law. They include construction workers and members of the neighborhood watch. The most powerful assistant the local Police commnader has to call upon is the President of the local home owners association. (ne: Thugs)
[*]Samurai - Operating under the code of Bushido these honorable fighters are under strict orders to follow the instructions of their Shogun. (ne: Ninjas)
[*]Robots - These Police Automatons have had their ethical and moral subroutines restored from memory and have been rebooted. (ne: Robots)
[*]Prophet/Diviner - This Commander can see into the future and gains the assistance of the essences of pure good. Virtue, Guardian, and Freedom and even has the ability to call upon the most powerful force of good - Justice. (ne: Demon Summoning)

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

looks at some of archtupes found in comics
Nick Fury, Agent of Shield - merc/ traps, except his version of traps would have all the cool powers that Spiders, Traps, Devices have

Tarzan( and a number of other similar to him) would have Animal Mastery

the Herceloids( the old cartoon from my youth) Monster Mastery

Commissioner Gordan - Police Mastery

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Zero (RP is RP, regardless of origin) first lead a force of rebel terrorists, transformed them into revolutionaries, then eventually into a private military organization. He wasn't following the 'law' for most of his existance (somewhat hard when you're trying to over throw the country you're in).


I really don't see why Masterminds need to be completely redefined RP-wise to fit heroside. The powersets may not perfectly mesh with the Uncorruptable Hero fantasy, but redeemed villains aren't supposed to be. Hell, one (soon two) of the signature Heroes in this game summons demons... I'd say if the devs can explain that twice, the other sets should be easy.

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Dominators could easily be converted to Wardens (people who guard and manage - sounds like a good Dominator to me)

Corruptors could be Guardians or Corsairs (very similar in both name and affects to defenders.)

Stalkers become Agent Provocateurs and their powers incapacitate rather than assasinate.

Brutes become Pugalists and Fury morphs into Intensity.

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

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Demon Summoning: What could be more hilarious than forcing evil to do good?

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Infernal is a Demon Summoner.

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Soldiers (not Mercs)

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Aren't Wyvern mercs? And they're heroic, aren't they?
So why not mercs?

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There is no reason to rename the ATs.

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When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...

BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

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Brutes become Pugalists and Fury morphs into Intensity.

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The Incredible Hulk is pretty much a Brute AT (gets stronger the more he gets angry) and he's a hero. I don't see a problem there.

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There is no reason to rename the ATs.

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This.

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Demon Summoning: What could be more hilarious than forcing evil to do good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Infernal is a Demon Summoner.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, he is. As will be one of the new siggies in Going Rogue that turns good.

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There is no reason to rename the ATs.

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There's no reason not to either. It's strictly flavor but it would be consistant with the devs to rename them and tweak powers going from one side to the other.

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no reason to rename the ATs.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no reason not to either. It's strictly flavor but it would be consistant with the devs to rename them and tweak powers going from one side to the other.

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But this isn't "a good version of masterminds", it's a "mastermind that's not into crime anymore". How far you go is up to you, we'll have the morality system, after all.

If you want to RP as being a paragon (ha ) of Masterminds, then actually apply a little bit of effort into coming up with your RP reasons (all the powersets already have had example reasons listed). There's no reason for all your powers to suddenly change when your morality changes slightly... When you become 'slightly good', all your robots shouldn't go away and be replaced by PPD bots. Nor should your mercenaries (mercenaries can be good guys... the A-Team example has already been given... all the Heroes in this game are mercenaries as well! Contacts hire you for your services!), Ninjas are good guys just as often as they are bad guys in fiction (hell, Naruto is about mercenary ninjas that are good guys!), "Thugs" can be working on the side of justice (GTA4 even has a contact that's exactly like this... Manny, I think was his name?), etc.

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QR

To be honest the first mastermind on the good side I thought of is a bit goofy, but hey, ... Willy Wonka and the Oompa Loompas.

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Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.

A heroic soldiers/traps with detonator!

Yay!

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