[ QUOTE ]
EM has miserable AoE mitigation
[/ QUOTE ]
Slot the chance for KB proc in Whirling Hands and there you go....still sucky AoE mitigation. Good for lulz though. See EM is the leader in lulz, it is good at something.
EM is also the leader in pinkness, but i16 should nerf that.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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[ QUOTE ]
Qunatify that last statement. Right now you're wrong but I want to see a better explanation as to why you're wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]What? I was making a comment about Cybernaut, who has demonstrated time and again that if it's not his pet melee class getting buffed it's not good enough, and it's okay for the things he likes to be overpowered.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Energy Melee gives the player "good" ST damage, "good" mitigation in the form of stuns, "poor" AoE damage, and a "good" damage type (energy is not highly resisted).
Sorry to burst your EM-Hate Bubble, but it's not a bottom-feeder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, however don't forget this: EM has miserable AoE mitigation... AoE controls like foot stomp, fault or even hand clap can count a lot for a brute.
[/ QUOTE ]It also has two exterme damage attacks and stacking ST mitigation. It's so clearly a set that'll thrive in a small team or solo situation.
[ QUOTE ]
EM is also the leader in pinkness, but i16 should nerf that.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.
That nerf sounds more realistic than the OP.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Qunatify that last statement. Right now you're wrong but I want to see a better explanation as to why you're wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]What? I was making a comment about Cybernaut, who has demonstrated time and again that if it's not his pet melee class getting buffed it's not good enough, and it's okay for the things he likes to be overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've got level 50's in em, ss, dm, claws, ma, spines, dual blades, katana, broadsword and a lvl 35 fire melee. I'm working on a sm and elec toon now. I have no experience with ice melee, war mace and battle axe.
As you can see, I enjoy all of the melee powersets, so to claim I have a 'pet one' is ridiculous. And to imply I'm pushing for buffs to em to benefit me is even more ridiculous because I have no plans to play em anymore due to the fact I've played the set so much and the fact the set is now quite literally painful to play.
If I was pushing for set improvements based on selfish reasons, I'd be begging for buffs to SM or elec. I'm simply stating my opinion, based on facts that I've already stated, and with my experience with so many of the melee sets, that em is an underperforming set in the vast majority of situations players will face, and therefore needs reworking.
You claim the set is fine, and from what I can gather, based only on the argument that it does good single target damage and has stacking stuns. In my opinion that is a weak argument and completely ignores the fact it's pitiful in the aoe department, which is certainly more valuable as you face more foes, and exponentially so when teamed, which again, happens a lot in an mmo. And it ignores the fact that while em languishes far behind the other sets in these valuable categories, in the area it is supposed to shine in, it's equaled by several sets (that at the same time destroy em in aoe capabilites) and is even surpassed by some.
We can disagree and that's fine, but the idea that I'm only pointing out EM's underperformance because it's my 'pet set' is as flat out wrong and broken as the rest of your argument. And really, your argument is so odd that I'm left to question what your motivations are, or what type of actual game experience you have with the set if you actually believe it is performing on par with other melee sets.
[ QUOTE ]
Energy Melee gives the player "good" ST damage, "good" mitigation in the form of stuns, "poor" AoE damage, and a "good" damage type (energy is not highly resisted).
Sorry to burst your EM-Hate Bubble, but it's not a bottom-feeder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry to burst your bubble bursting but you've bursted nothing...
You say em does good single target damage. True, but sets like SS, SM and DM doe similar damage, deliver it faster, and don't take any self damage from doing so. And if you're playing/teaming with others, you'll get a new 'frustration bar' that will be maxed out every session after your two glacially slow 'big hitters' are wasted on corpses that are killed by your teamates while you're waiting for the attack animations to animate.
The bottom feeding comes in when you start facing more than one enemy at a time, which happens what, 99% of the time? Even solo you're going to face at least 2 baddies at a time. Then those sets that do similar single target damage as EM, start to make EM look silly with far better multiple target attacks and aoe mitigation. And while em is mitigating one enemy's attacks with it's stacking stuns, sets like SS and SM are negating the entire mob.
EM's pitiful aoe abilities were ok before the et nerf because it was balanced by the fact that EM was the undisputed king of single target damage - nothing else was in the sets class. And even on teams, the quick et attack got the set reliable single target kills. After the ET nerf, the set is on par with several other sets for single target damage but remains in the basement aoe-wise, that's why there are so many complaints and that is why the set is a bottom feeder now. When they nerfed the sets single target damage, they needed to buff its aoe abilities - because if its going to be on par with other sets single target-wise, then logically it would need to be on par with these same sets aoe-wise to be balanced. At the moment, that is not the case - em is on par with some sets in single target goodness, while falling far behind these same sets in aoe ability. And that clearly is not balanced.
tl;dr
Energy Melee gives the player "good" ST damage, "good" mitigation in the form of stuns, "poor" AoE damage, and a "good" damage type (energy is not highly resisted).
Sorry to burst your EM-Hate Bubble, but it's not a bottom-feeder.
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[ QUOTE ]
Qunatify that last statement. Right now you're wrong but I want to see a better explanation as to why you're wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]What? I was making a comment about Cybernaut, who has demonstrated time and again that if it's not his pet melee class getting buffed it's not good enough, and it's okay for the things he likes to be overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please. Lets not go attacking people.
EM has its issues and he has some points. People ignored them because it did such fun ST damage. But the fun has been change/removed and it does not stand well without it.
I have given up on EM as it does not suit me its mitigation and AOE damage were lacking (before the nerf) so I am not even an EM fan boi. Yet I can see the current problems with it
and why people are not happy with the change it went through.
The dev's heard people saying something like if your not EM in PVP then LOL. Mainly because it had two big hitters.
As well as hardly mentioned PVP damage type that was not as well resisted.
But other than stacked stun thats all it really had that made it stand out was the big hitters.
I do not have any advice on how to fix it. But even I can see its has problems. All it takes is a short test drive of my L35 Red side to see why I have put it on a shelf.
I have a lot more fun with my DM, BA, Fire, SM and SS so I focus on the fun.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
EM fix is easy. Increase wiffing hands to 15' like domes will have for the exact same attack. Sure you will also have to increase the endurance and recharge, but I think most people would be ok with that trade off.
That doesn't sound like a fix to me. I don't really have a problem with the radius since I'm not trying to farm using Whirling Hands.
Making it bigger and making it slower recharging and costin more endurance is not the fix I would like...perhaps make it a 100% or 90% chance for mag 2 stun and I'll jump on board.
I am not sure of anyone that would try and farm with Whirling Hands currently or even if the radius was increased. Farming using the AE you can get 10 mobs within 8' without any issues.
On teams is where you would benefit getting the attention of more mobs at once with the larger radius attack.
I do agree also that the chance to stun should be increased as well to at least 80%.
I wouldn't mind a radius increase but I would be against a radius increase AND increasing recharge/endurance usage.
NERF SS
j/k felt left out
[ QUOTE ]
tl;dr
Energy Melee gives the player "good" ST damage, "good" mitigation in the form of stuns, "poor" AoE damage, and a "good" damage type (energy is not highly resisted).
Sorry to burst your EM-Hate Bubble, but it's not a bottom-feeder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I think you read it, you just didn't have any answers or retorts to the facts I laid out for you so you covered your ears and repeated your little bubble bursting routine. What's the cool internet abbreviation for no argument;broken logic?
No, I really didn't read what you wrote.
Energy Melee gives the player "good" ST damage, "good" mitigation in the form of stuns, "poor" AoE damage, and a "good" damage type (energy is not highly resisted).
Sorry to burst your EM-Hate Bubble, but it's not a bottom-feeder.
[ QUOTE ]
guys its offical, jab is getting nerfed, there reducing its damage by 50%, to compensate footstomp's radius is now double and deals double damage and recharges in half the time. also incidentally rage has been made into a toggle to compensate for ppl who like to double stack rage the damage output has been upped by 300% higher than the last patch's rage, the toggle also does not surpress well mezzed infact it actually increases the "rage" effect making the tank/brute hit 4x as hard as normal, also rage has been given a "blood thirst" effect where if the tank/brute isn't being atacked or attacking after 120 seconds rage crashes and the tank/brute dies, but not only that the resulting effect kills anything in a 120ft radius including friendly targets and hamidon.
so overall i can deal with the nerf to jab.
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Is there patch notes for this?
Rendezvous Fire/SR Scrapper 50 (Main), Sole Savior Kat/WP scrapper 50, Papillon Noir DM/SR Stalker 50
Cascavela NW 50
[ QUOTE ]
No, I really didn't read what you wrote.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well thats a great way to have a discussion, ignore the opposing argument and simply continue to repeat you are correct without providing any reasonable argument to support that conclusion, bravo, lol. Reminds me of a child covering their ears and repeating lalalalalala so they don't have to face reality.
Once again, the single target damage is no better than several other sets, while it's aoe abilities are far behind the same sets that do similar single target damage, that makes it a bottom feeder. And I'm not sure how you could consider single target stuns a 'good' form of damage mitigation in comparison to several sets that have dmg mitigation that affects entire groups of enemies and is far more reliable, but then I can't understand how someone could argue without listening to those who hold a differing opinion...
[ QUOTE ]
Well thats a great way to have a discussion, ignore the opposing argument and simply continue to repeat you are correct without providing any reasonable argument to support that conclusion, bravo, lol. Reminds me of a child covering their ears and repeating lalalalalala so they don't have to face reality.
[/ QUOTE ]
We've been down this alley before and I don't care what you think of EM because your viewpoint is obviously skewed due to ET's animation nerf.
[ QUOTE ]
Once again, the single target damage is no better than several other sets, while it's aoe abilities are far behind the same sets that do similar single target damage, that makes it a bottom feeder.
[/ QUOTE ]
ST damage is not the worst and it's not the best. AoE damage is poor, probably at the bottom, if not the worst. Mitigation is good, the capability to stun bosses IS GOOD MITIGATION. Whirling hands might be a terrible power for damage, but stunning 2-3 minions each activation is good mitigation. The Damage Type is not heavily resisted so that gives EM a higher rating. If it were purely Smashing damage, then there would be more to discuss.
[ QUOTE ]
And I'm not sure how you could consider single target stuns a 'good' form of damage mitigation in comparison to several sets that have dmg mitigation that affects entire groups of enemies and is far more reliable
[/ QUOTE ]
If you've played EM you'd be able to answer your own question. That's why I try to not respond to your constant attacks on EM. You don't want to like the set since you're still butthurt over the changes.
EM is not the best set and I'm not arguing from that viewpoint. You keep stating this set is a bottom-feeder, but you provide no evidence to support your claim. There have been tests done that show EM is above average for ST damage and I think it was performed by Billz with the help of various players.
AoE damage is poor, and that's the only point we agree on.
The stuns are good mitigation, and you always debate this point and I'm not sure why. If you've played the set, then you know anything less then a boss is stunned after 2-3 attacks and a boss scan be stunned with a couple more.
The damage type is what helps this set retain some of it's former glory. It's a mix of smashing/energy but with energy making up the majority of the damage and it being much less resisted; the set fairs much better against tougher opponents with higher resistances.
I shelved my EM/ELA Brute awhile ago because SS/WP and Fire/SR were much more fun and suitable to my playstyle. I blame /ELA more then I do EM/.
However, I have been playing a DA/EM Tank that does just fine for teams. WH + OG does a great job as active mitigation. Not to mention, stunning bosses is a common occurence due to the stacking stuns.
EM is a better solo set then for teams if the player is concerned about the max ub3r expezz/min. I'm not. I play to punch stuff in the face and EM sets that goal.
So there you go. The same tired arguement I've made time and time again. Next will be your same ole tired "bottom-feeder" response that discounts the ST damage, reminds me of the poor AoE damage (duh), discounts the stunning capability and then ignores the damage type. Gee, I can't wait.
[ QUOTE ]
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Well thats a great way to have a discussion, ignore the opposing argument and simply continue to repeat you are correct without providing any reasonable argument to support that conclusion, bravo, lol. Reminds me of a child covering their ears and repeating lalalalalala so they don't have to face reality.
[/ QUOTE ]
We've been down this alley before and I don't care what you think of EM because your viewpoint is obviously skewed due to ET's animation nerf.
[ QUOTE ]
Once again, the single target damage is no better than several other sets, while it's aoe abilities are far behind the same sets that do similar single target damage, that makes it a bottom feeder.
[/ QUOTE ]
ST damage is not the worst and it's not the best. AoE damage is poor, probably at the bottom, if not the worst. Mitigation is good, the capability to stun bosses IS GOOD MITIGATION. Whirling hands might be a terrible power for damage, but stunning 2-3 minions each activation is good mitigation. The Damage Type is not heavily resisted so that gives EM a higher rating. If it were purely Smashing damage, then there would be more to discuss.
[ QUOTE ]
And I'm not sure how you could consider single target stuns a 'good' form of damage mitigation in comparison to several sets that have dmg mitigation that affects entire groups of enemies and is far more reliable
[/ QUOTE ]
If you've played EM you'd be able to answer your own question. That's why I try to not respond to your constant attacks on EM. You don't want to like the set since you're still butthurt over the changes.
EM is not the best set and I'm not arguing from that viewpoint. You keep stating this set is a bottom-feeder, but you provide no evidence to support your claim. There have been tests done that show EM is above average for ST damage and I think it was performed by Billz with the help of various players.
AoE damage is poor, and that's the only point we agree on.
The stuns are good mitigation, and you always debate this point and I'm not sure why. If you've played the set, then you know anything less then a boss is stunned after 2-3 attacks and a boss scan be stunned with a couple more.
The damage type is what helps this set retain some of it's former glory. It's a mix of smashing/energy but with energy making up the majority of the damage and it being much less resisted; the set fairs much better against tougher opponents with higher resistances.
I shelved my EM/ELA Brute awhile ago because SS/WP and Fire/SR were much more fun and suitable to my playstyle. I blame /ELA more then I do EM/.
However, I have been playing a DA/EM Tank that does just fine for teams. WH + OG does a great job as active mitigation. Not to mention, stunning bosses is a common occurence due to the stacking stuns.
EM is a better solo set then for teams if the player is concerned about the max ub3r expezz/min. I'm not. I play to punch stuff in the face and EM sets that goal.
So there you go. The same tired arguement I've made time and time again. Next will be your same ole tired "bottom-feeder" response that discounts the ST damage, reminds me of the poor AoE damage (duh), discounts the stunning capability and then ignores the damage type. Gee, I can't wait.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, I knew you were reading my posts despite your claims to the contrary.
And it's time to stop trying to discount the argument that em is a bottom-end set by claiming it is only 'angry veterans' who are complaining about the nerfs it recently received. In the other thread you made this same claim in, 3 newbs chimed in and said they dislike the set for the same reasons I've been mentioning - lousy flow, slow animation and poor contribution in team environments.
And your continual argument that em is fine because its one of the top single target damage sets is completely broken, just like the set is, lol. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that if the set is on par with other sets regarding single target damage, but then is far behind those same sets regarding aoe abilities, then em is lagging behind those sets as a whole, which makes it a bottom feeder.
And again, single target mitigation is less valuable than aoe mitigation, and there is no arguing that em is a bottom feeder in this department as well. While an em is taking out one enemy with stuns (minions or bosses, whatever), a set like stone is taking out the entire group.
And finally, your admission that you are playing em on a tank speaks volumes. Tanks play pretty differently from brutes, and unless I'm mistaken, we are on the brute boards. EM is weaker after the nerfs for any at that uses it, but brutes where hit hardest because the at is meant to be a relentless, fast-paced killing machine, which is the opposite of what em has become after the nerfs - a glacially paced snore-fest that can only deal with one enemy at a time, which is less of a problem for single-target minded stalkers and tanks with taunt.
EM does great ST damage on paper it just the play still most people don't like.
Powerset DPS EPS
Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1
Brute Energy 157.5 3.3
Scrap Energy 151 3.3
Scrap Claws 149.6 2.9
Brute Claws 149.5 2.9
Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1
Brute Warmace 148 3.7
Brute Dark 143.7 3.1
Brute Martial Arts 143.7 3.6
Scrap Strength 142.1 2.9
Scrap Dark 141.6 3.1
Scrap Martial Arts 141.5 3.6
Scrap Warmace 141 3.7
Brute Stone 137.5 3.5
Scrap Dual Blades 136.3 3.5
Brute Dual Blades 134.8 3.5
Scrap Stone 131.8 3.5
Brute Katana 131.2 3.2
Brute Battleaxe 129.3 3.2
Scrap Katana 128.6 3.2
Brute Strength 127.3 2.9
Brute Broadsword 124.9 3.1
Scrap Battleaxe 123.3 3.2
Scrap Broadsword 121.7 3.1
Brute Electric 106.6 2.9
Scrap Electric 103.6 2.9
Brute Spines 93.4 1.6
Scrap Spines 80.1 1.6
Takin from the scrapper form math doesn't lie.
[ QUOTE ]
EM does great ST damage on paper it just the play still most people don't like.
Powerset DPS EPS
Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1
Brute Energy 157.5 3.3
Scrap Energy 151 3.3
Scrap Claws 149.6 2.9
Brute Claws 149.5 2.9
Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1
Brute Warmace 148 3.7
Brute Dark 143.7 3.1
Brute Martial Arts 143.7 3.6
Scrap Strength 142.1 2.9
Scrap Dark 141.6 3.1
Scrap Martial Arts 141.5 3.6
Scrap Warmace 141 3.7
Brute Stone 137.5 3.5
Scrap Dual Blades 136.3 3.5
Brute Dual Blades 134.8 3.5
Scrap Stone 131.8 3.5
Brute Katana 131.2 3.2
Brute Battleaxe 129.3 3.2
Scrap Katana 128.6 3.2
Brute Strength 127.3 2.9
Brute Broadsword 124.9 3.1
Scrap Battleaxe 123.3 3.2
Scrap Broadsword 121.7 3.1
Brute Electric 106.6 2.9
Scrap Electric 103.6 2.9
Brute Spines 93.4 1.6
Scrap Spines 80.1 1.6
Takin from the scrapper form math doesn't lie.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who is claiming em does not do excellent single target damage?
Hi Cyber,
Ya know, I'm kinda tired about bickering about EM. I really didn't read most of what you typed since we have been over this before.
Basically, you dislike EM after the changes and I think the set is ok.
If I were to make any changes, I might start by looking at WH. Perhaps an increase in stun percentage and/or damage would be in order. Then I'd move to Total Focus and see about making it a Thunderstrike clone, but a little less AoE and a bit more ST.
I think that would round out the set a little more and make it more attractive for teams.
How would you adjust EM?
[ QUOTE ]
EM does great ST damage on paper it just the play still most people don't like.
Powerset DPS EPS
Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1
Brute Energy 157.5 3.3
Scrap Energy 151 3.3
Scrap Claws 149.6 2.9
Brute Claws 149.5 2.9
Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1
Brute Warmace 148 3.7
Brute Dark 143.7 3.1
Brute Martial Arts 143.7 3.6
Scrap Strength 142.1 2.9
Scrap Dark 141.6 3.1
Scrap Martial Arts 141.5 3.6
Scrap Warmace 141 3.7
Brute Stone 137.5 3.5
Scrap Dual Blades 136.3 3.5
Brute Dual Blades 134.8 3.5
Scrap Stone 131.8 3.5
Brute Katana 131.2 3.2
Brute Battleaxe 129.3 3.2
Scrap Katana 128.6 3.2
Brute Strength 127.3 2.9
Brute Broadsword 124.9 3.1
Scrap Battleaxe 123.3 3.2
Scrap Broadsword 121.7 3.1
Brute Electric 106.6 2.9
Scrap Electric 103.6 2.9
Brute Spines 93.4 1.6
Scrap Spines 80.1 1.6
Takin from the scrapper form math doesn't lie.
[/ QUOTE ]
The game is not played on paper.
When you jump in the air to 1 shot a minion and in the 3.3 seconds it takes to animate your attack somoene esle kills said minion, you do 0 points of damage. That is not figured on paper. Also those numbers are based off of some pretty insane recharge times. Not everyone will be able to attain those kind of damage numbers. On an average recharge, EM is sitting in the middle, even on paper.
[ QUOTE ]
Energy Melee gives the player "good" ST damage, "good" mitigation in the form of stuns, "poor" AoE damage, and a "good" damage type (energy is not highly resisted).
Sorry to burst your EM-Hate Bubble, but it's not a bottom-feeder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, however don't forget this: EM has miserable AoE mitigation... AoE controls like foot stomp, fault or even hand clap can count a lot for a brute.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!