One, the question was on the one specific power, that was why I mentioned taking it out of the set, and commented on not really being overpowered.
Two, SS in not fully balanced on rage. SS has a quick recharge power as it's first power, and lacks a third tier attack on a 10-12 second timer. Other sets with a 2-3 second at the start tend to have more quick recharging attacks to build an attack chain sooner. Really looking at the numbers SS actually does fall in line with most brute attack formulas before Rage, which makes me think rage is overpowered before double stacking.
Three Footstomp is overpowered, it doesn't follow the aoe attack formula. It's radius is out of proportion.
I also disagree that it is fine as is. Rage needs to lose the -defense.
Dirges
[ QUOTE ]
It's absolutely not overpowered when you consider the sets, and you have to consider the sets... to compare sets... and then claim 'overpowered', lol.
Rage simply allows SS to do damage on par with competing sets - without it, it's clearly sub-par. With rage, its a top damaging set, but to achieve this, you have to use an entire power, and slot it, just to do damage similar to that of competing sets like SM, that don't have to use the extra power and slots. Now the to hit bonus is great, but SS definitely pays for it with an end crash, 10 seconds of uselessness every couple of minutes and a defense penalty every couple of minutes.
Then people complain about footstomp, and yeah, it's a great power, but it SHOULD be, because it's SS's only aoe power and it's the sets tier 9 power. Remove footstomp from SS and the set is pretty damn lackluster, with a bunch of pitiful single target attacks with little to no damage mitigation.
The bottom line is, SS is fine as-is. It's a popular set that many players/customers LOVE. If it aint broke, don't fix it. This game would be a HELL of a lot better if the devs focused on fixing things players didn't like, or sets that players/customers didn't play (by improving them and making them more attractive) rather than nerfing and messing with sets and powers their customers clearly enjoy, as evidenced by their popularity.
Or maybe the devs will focus all of their efforts on i16 'Calming the Rage' that will consist of SS nerfs, more badge removals and a new hat costume piece with matching boots. Then they can move on to i17 'Where the hell did everyone go?'.
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So having one power that basically validates your otherwise crappy primary is a good thing? Gee, where does this sound familiar...
If I didn't love SS, I wouldn't have taken it to 50. But I wouldn't complain if Rage got dialed back in exchange for the rest of the set getting a buff either.
QR
Weatherby_Goode - "Heck, Carrion Creepers negates the knockdown from Carrion Creepers."
Nevermind that the quick recharge power does crap damage and with brutes is normally skipped.
Nevermind that our strongest attack is on a 25 second timer. Even though the other 2 sets that have the same damage attack have it on a 20 second timer.
Nevermind the crash of doing almost no damage for 10 seconds.
If you ignore all those things then yea rage is overpowered on SS.
If I were to "fix" SS I would turn jab into punch, make punch a 6 second 55 damage base attack. Then I would take KO blow to a 20 second timer. At most I would make it so the +to hit does not stack but +damage does with double stacked rage. Take footstomp to a 10' range and increase the cap to 16.
yeah. the other set you mention - mostly SM - doesnt have rage and tremor PALES to footstomp in that if you actually use tremor, you lose fury. nearly three and a half seconds to fire it off, about the same animation time as shadow maul.
Having low damage doesn't matter, nor does it being skipped. I was talking about the overall balance, which was what I was questioned on. Jab is not underpowered, it is just a quick weak attack that does follow the rules. I agree with K-OB, but that would be why I said most, not all.
As far as the crash, how do you figure that in when it is so easy to prevent it. You are already talking about double stacked rage, so it is not beyond reason to think most people can do it.
I also don't agree with raising max target on footstomp, you are just exchanging one overpowered aspect for another.
Dirges
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As far as the crash, how do you figure that in when it is so easy to prevent it. You are already talking about double stacked rage, so it is not beyond reason to think most people can do it.
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You can stop the -damage and the -end part of the rage crash?
The crash cannot be prevented. Only the -def part can be put off when rage is up. You still have 10 seconds of no damage except for temps and procs and your endurance bar takes a big hit as well. There are no ways to avoid those things by any means.
Also DPA is what is important with attack chains, not if the attack follows an end, damage, recharge formula or not.
Base DPA on Jab is 26.5. Outside of brawl, this is the lowest single target DPA melee attack that brutes can take in the entire game. (Not counting ranged attacks or pool powers as those have other options that are not set based on your primary)
I'd take a a big acc and recharge debuff to replace the current rage crash. At least then it would be fair to all secondaries. The defense debuff is bane to def based toons where as res based toons don't care. With a big -recharge debuff and -acc debuff at least I can still have the possibility to do something productive while rage crashing.
Or perhaps a reverse conserve power effect. Instead of a straight drop of endurance, you have a ten second effect of all powers costing 50% more endurance to activate as well as an acc debuff. This would simulate being exhausted. This would coincide with removing the ability to stack any of the effects.
Of course I would only accept that with a buff to KO Blow's recharge.
[ QUOTE ]
It's absolutely not overpowered when you consider the sets, and you have to consider the sets... to compare sets... and then claim 'overpowered', lol.
Rage simply allows SS to do damage on par with competing sets - without it, it's clearly sub-par. With rage, its a top damaging set, but to achieve this, you have to use an entire power, and slot it, just to do damage similar to that of competing sets like SM, that don't have to use the extra power and slots. Now the to hit bonus is great, but SS definitely pays for it with an end crash, 10 seconds of uselessness every couple of minutes and a defense penalty every couple of minutes.
Then people complain about footstomp, and yeah, it's a great power, but it SHOULD be, because it's SS's only aoe power and it's the sets tier 9 power. Remove footstomp from SS and the set is pretty damn lackluster, with a bunch of pitiful single target attacks with little to no damage mitigation.
The bottom line is, SS is fine as-is. It's a popular set that many players/customers LOVE. If it aint broke, don't fix it. This game would be a HELL of a lot better if the devs focused on fixing things players didn't like, or sets that players/customers didn't play (by improving them and making them more attractive) rather than nerfing and messing with sets and powers their customers clearly enjoy, as evidenced by their popularity.
[/ QUOTE ]
whoa, deja vu.
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(see sig)
[ QUOTE ]
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It's absolutely not overpowered when you consider the sets, and you have to consider the sets... to compare sets... and then claim 'overpowered', lol.
Rage simply allows SS to do damage on par with competing sets - without it, it's clearly sub-par. With rage, its a top damaging set, but to achieve this, you have to use an entire power, and slot it, just to do damage similar to that of competing sets like SM, that don't have to use the extra power and slots. Now the to hit bonus is great, but SS definitely pays for it with an end crash, 10 seconds of uselessness every couple of minutes and a defense penalty every couple of minutes.
Then people complain about footstomp, and yeah, it's a great power, but it SHOULD be, because it's SS's only aoe power and it's the sets tier 9 power. Remove footstomp from SS and the set is pretty damn lackluster, with a bunch of pitiful single target attacks with little to no damage mitigation.
The bottom line is, SS is fine as-is. It's a popular set that many players/customers LOVE. If it aint broke, don't fix it. This game would be a HELL of a lot better if the devs focused on fixing things players didn't like, or sets that players/customers didn't play (by improving them and making them more attractive) rather than nerfing and messing with sets and powers their customers clearly enjoy, as evidenced by their popularity.
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whoa, deja vu.
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(see sig)
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It's CoH 101
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
One, the question was on the one specific power, that was why I mentioned taking it out of the set, and commented on not really being overpowered.
Two, SS in not fully balanced on rage. SS has a quick recharge power as it's first power, and lacks a third tier attack on a 10-12 second timer. Other sets with a 2-3 second at the start tend to have more quick recharging attacks to build an attack chain sooner. Really looking at the numbers SS actually does fall in line with most brute attack formulas before Rage, which makes me think rage is overpowered before double stacking.
Three Footstomp is overpowered, it doesn't follow the aoe attack formula. It's radius is out of proportion.
I also disagree that it is fine as is. Rage needs to lose the -defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is, WITH rage, SS does damage on par with other top sets like SM and EM, which has been shown in several calculations by many posters on these boards. In fact at the top end, even with rage, it does less damage than sets like stone melee. Without rage, SS would be a bottom feeder in regards to damage dealing ability. So clearly, SS was in fact balanced with rage in mind, or maybe the devs just got really, really lucky.
And I do not agree that footstomp is 'too good'. Again, it's SS's only aoe power and only real dmg mitigation, and it's the set's teir nine power - it should be very good and it is. And the idea that it doesn't follow some inconsistent 'formula' and that makes it 'too powerful' is nonsense. They put in a static 'formula' in pvp, how'd that work out?
Could SS be redone and rebalanced? Sure. But why, lol? SS is a set the vast majority of players are very happy with, outside the kiddies using competing sets who have some kind of bizarre set envy, lol. As I've said, the devs would be wise to focus their time and effort fixing the things that are not liked by players rather than messing with things that most of the players like. Or they can keep listening to the nerf monkeys and keep running off customers. If the devs are really worried about SS with all the problems and underplayed powersets in this game, then COH is headed in the wrong direction.
[ QUOTE ]
yeah. the other set you mention - mostly SM - doesnt have rage and tremor PALES to footstomp in that if you actually use tremor, you lose fury. nearly three and a half seconds to fire it off, about the same animation time as shadow maul.
[/ QUOTE ]
And even without rage, SM has been shown to outdamage SS. And yeah, I'd agree footstomp is better than fault, but sm has another power for aoe dmg mitigation, SS doesn't, so I would hope SS's one aoe power was better, since it's using the other power just to keep up with SM's damage output while taking on negatives (end crash, minus def and 10 seconds of impotence) that SM doesn't have to deal with at all.
[ QUOTE ]
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It's absolutely not overpowered when you consider the sets, and you have to consider the sets... to compare sets... and then claim 'overpowered', lol.
Rage simply allows SS to do damage on par with competing sets - without it, it's clearly sub-par. With rage, its a top damaging set, but to achieve this, you have to use an entire power, and slot it, just to do damage similar to that of competing sets like SM, that don't have to use the extra power and slots. Now the to hit bonus is great, but SS definitely pays for it with an end crash, 10 seconds of uselessness every couple of minutes and a defense penalty every couple of minutes.
Then people complain about footstomp, and yeah, it's a great power, but it SHOULD be, because it's SS's only aoe power and it's the sets tier 9 power. Remove footstomp from SS and the set is pretty damn lackluster, with a bunch of pitiful single target attacks with little to no damage mitigation.
The bottom line is, SS is fine as-is. It's a popular set that many players/customers LOVE. If it aint broke, don't fix it. This game would be a HELL of a lot better if the devs focused on fixing things players didn't like, or sets that players/customers didn't play (by improving them and making them more attractive) rather than nerfing and messing with sets and powers their customers clearly enjoy, as evidenced by their popularity.
Or maybe the devs will focus all of their efforts on i16 'Calming the Rage' that will consist of SS nerfs, more badge removals and a new hat costume piece with matching boots. Then they can move on to i17 'Where the hell did everyone go?'.
[/ QUOTE ]
So having one power that basically validates your otherwise crappy primary is a good thing? Gee, where does this sound familiar...
If I didn't love SS, I wouldn't have taken it to 50. But I wouldn't complain if Rage got dialed back in exchange for the rest of the set getting a buff either.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you really 'love ss', then you shouldn't be asking for changes. Are you new, lol? The last time the devs tried to 'fix' rage, they added a -recovery that made the crash flat out deadly, so deadly in fact, that the devs, who rarely ever reverse a move, reversed the move, lol.
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One, the question was on the one specific power, that was why I mentioned taking it out of the set, and commented on not really being overpowered.
Two, SS in not fully balanced on rage. SS has a quick recharge power as it's first power, and lacks a third tier attack on a 10-12 second timer. Other sets with a 2-3 second at the start tend to have more quick recharging attacks to build an attack chain sooner. Really looking at the numbers SS actually does fall in line with most brute attack formulas before Rage, which makes me think rage is overpowered before double stacking.
Three Footstomp is overpowered, it doesn't follow the aoe attack formula. It's radius is out of proportion.
I also disagree that it is fine as is. Rage needs to lose the -defense.
[/ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is, WITH rage, SS does damage on par with other top sets like SM and EM, which has been shown in several calculations by many posters on these boards. In fact at the top end, even with rage, it does less damage than sets like stone melee. Without rage, SS would be a bottom feeder in regards to damage dealing ability. So clearly, SS was in fact balanced with rage in mind, or maybe the devs just got really, really lucky.
And I do not agree that footstomp is 'too good'. Again, it's SS's only aoe power and only real dmg mitigation, and it's the set's teir nine power - it should be very good and it is. And the idea that it doesn't follow some inconsistent 'formula' and that makes it 'too powerful' is nonsense. They put in a static 'formula' in pvp, how'd that work out?
Could SS be redone and rebalanced? Sure. But why, lol? SS is a set the vast majority of players are very happy with, outside the kiddies using competing sets who have some kind of bizarre set envy, lol. As I've said, the devs would be wise to focus their time and effort fixing the things that are not liked by players rather than messing with things that most of the players like. Or they can keep listening to the nerf monkeys and keep running off customers. If the devs are really worried about SS with all the problems and underplayed powersets in this game, then COH is headed in the wrong direction.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I'm not disagreeing with you, this line of thinking holds no water with the powers that be.
I think they have moved away from balancing sets "as a whole" (for damage dealing sets) and have moved much more toward a power by power standardization/balancing system.
Everyone knows when SS gets "adjusted" it is going to come with a lot of dev hate. It might be the most popular set in the game! That's why I say Castle will hide it in the patches that follow shortly after Going Rogue.
*by hide I don't mean stealth nerf I mean distract with one hand (GR) while you pull your trick with the other (nerf SS).
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If you really 'love ss', then you shouldn't be asking for changes. Are you new, lol? The last time the devs tried to 'fix' rage, they added a -recovery that made the crash flat out deadly, so deadly in fact, that the devs, who rarely ever reverse a move, reversed the move, lol.
[/ QUOTE ]The change never made it to live. It was on test. They tested it. And shock and horror, after testing, they decided not to do it. Not quite the same scenario you outline, which I know is kinda bad because it makes your point a bit weaker, but still.
On the other hand, constantly repeating 'the set is weak' doesn't make it true. The set is out of whack, yes - KoB and Foot stomp and Rage all behave differently to what they look like they should - but to act like the set needs to be so ridiculously powerful because otherwise it would be feeble and weak is disingenuous.
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yeah. the other set you mention - mostly SM - doesnt have rage and tremor PALES to footstomp in that if you actually use tremor, you lose fury. nearly three and a half seconds to fire it off, about the same animation time as shadow maul.
[/ QUOTE ]
And even without rage, SM has been shown to outdamage SS. And yeah, I'd agree footstomp is better than fault, but sm has another power for aoe dmg mitigation, SS doesn't, so I would hope SS's one aoe power was better, since it's using the other power just to keep up with SM's damage output while taking on negatives (end crash, minus def and 10 seconds of impotence) that SM doesn't have to deal with at all.
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um..i said tremor...not fault
dont touch my fault
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yeah. the other set you mention - mostly SM - doesnt have rage and tremor PALES to footstomp in that if you actually use tremor, you lose fury. nearly three and a half seconds to fire it off, about the same animation time as shadow maul.
[/ QUOTE ]
And even without rage, SM has been shown to outdamage SS. And yeah, I'd agree footstomp is better than fault, but sm has another power for aoe dmg mitigation, SS doesn't, so I would hope SS's one aoe power was better, since it's using the other power just to keep up with SM's damage output while taking on negatives (end crash, minus def and 10 seconds of impotence) that SM doesn't have to deal with at all.
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Not like brutes take it but SS does have another aoe mitigation tool in Handclap. Granted it is on a 30 second recharge vs SM 20 second fault. Both do the same for stun but fault gets KD vs the KB which is hated by many melee players.
So it is there, it is just crap.
What about blinding feint being dbl stacked? No penalty there?
I'd also like to point this out for those who may not have seen it. Nice little spreadsheet by Billz
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=1
He did all the math for us!!
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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What about blinding feint being dbl stacked? No penalty there?
I'd also like to point this out for those who may not have seen it. Nice little spreadsheet by Billz
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=1
He did all the math for us!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Blinding feint and follow up are indeed awesome.
The big difference for them is that they roll a tohit check and require in combat time to "self buff". They do ok damage though which is nice.
Perma double stacked BF, for which you require 169% recharge enhancement is still less less damage buff than perma rage. 60% vs 80% (73.8% with rage downtime factored in).
If we applied that same 169% recharge to rage you get an 90.3 second cycle time. Which means 50% of the time you have double rage. So even more of a lopsided comparison.
60% vs 120% (106.7% with rage crash factored in).
Rage of course is effective with just rech enhancement. Blinding feint requires acc, rech, and damage to not suck.
[ QUOTE ]
What about blinding feint being dbl stacked? No penalty there?
I'd also like to point this out for those who may not have seen it. Nice little spreadsheet by Billz
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=1
He did all the math for us!!
[/ QUOTE ]Clearly, scrappers need buffs.
With high recharge builds DB will blow SS out of the water still. At least vs single targets. Double rage means double crash. Over time it kills your DPS.
To be fair, footstomp + rage + 2 patron aoe attacks will be much better than DB can put out in the aoe department.
re: Footstomp should be left alone "as the only AoE"
Check the other sets that are being talked about. Stone Melee? One AoE. Energy Melee? One, and it's also the only AoE mitigation, with a low percentage at that. Dark Melee has 3 AoEs - one is a small melee cone and the other two have a 2- and 3-minute recharge.
And as pointed out above, just because you choose not to use the AoE mitigation power in SS doesn't mean it doesn't have one, and by saying that it doesn't you're simply whining over nothing.
Do I think Footstomp really needs to be changed? No. But your case for leaving it alone is extremely weak and ignorant.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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[ QUOTE ]
With high recharge builds DB will blow SS out of the water still. At least vs single targets. Double rage means double crash. Over time it kills your DPS.
To be fair, footstomp + rage + 2 patron aoe attacks will be much better than DB can put out in the aoe department.
[/ QUOTE ]
And really aoe is what shines best in the pve game.
Like I said though BF and follow up are awesome powers, but rage is just as good as either of them, probably better where it counts.
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With high recharge builds DB will blow SS out of the water still. At least vs single targets. Double rage means double crash. Over time it kills your DPS.
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From the "high recharge" link in my sig where BillZ used the chains provided (note: procs not included):<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Brute Dark w/ 10 222.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 10 222 4 EPS
Brute Stone 218 5.2 EPS
Brute Fiery 213.2 3.83 EPS
Brute Strength 212.6 4.59 EPS
Brute Energy 207.4 3.84 EPS
Brute Warmace 203.4 4.71 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 3 201.7 4.53 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 1 194.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Fiery 190.3 3.48 EPS
Brute Battleaxe 187.2 4.34 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 3 181 4 EPS
Scrap Dual Blades 169.7 4.42 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 1 169.3 4 EPS
Brute Electric 169 4.69 EPS
Brute Dual Blades 168.3 4.42 EPS</pre><hr />
At extremely high recharge, Electric Melee outdoes Dual Blades.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With high recharge builds DB will blow SS out of the water still. At least vs single targets. Double rage means double crash. Over time it kills your DPS.
[/ QUOTE ]
From the "high recharge" link in my sig where BillZ used the chains provided (note: procs not included):<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Brute Dark w/ 10 222.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 10 222 4 EPS
Brute Stone 218 5.2 EPS
Brute Fiery 213.2 3.83 EPS
Brute Strength 212.6 4.59 EPS
Brute Energy 207.4 3.84 EPS
Brute Warmace 203.4 4.71 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 3 201.7 4.53 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 1 194.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Fiery 190.3 3.48 EPS
Brute Battleaxe 187.2 4.34 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 3 181 4 EPS
Scrap Dual Blades 169.7 4.42 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 1 169.3 4 EPS
Brute Electric 169 4.69 EPS
Brute Dual Blades 168.3 4.42 EPS</pre><hr />
At extremely high recharge, Electric Melee outdoes Dual Blades.
[/ QUOTE ]
lol dual blades, at least you get camspin during thousand cuts!!!
guys its offical, jab is getting nerfed, there reducing its damage by 50%, to compensate footstomp's radius is now double and deals double damage and recharges in half the time. also incidentally rage has been made into a toggle to compensate for ppl who like to double stack rage the damage output has been upped by 300% higher than the last patch's rage, the toggle also does not surpress well mezzed infact it actually increases the "rage" effect making the tank/brute hit 4x as hard as normal, also rage has been given a "blood thirst" effect where if the tank/brute isn't being atacked or attacking after 120 seconds rage crashes and the tank/brute dies, but not only that the resulting effect kills anything in a 120ft radius including friendly targets and hamidon.
so overall i can deal with the nerf to jab.