Grant Cover: Too much to ask for?

I've been on many teams lately with a lot of shield scrappers and one thing I've noticed is that not many of them take grant cover.

Today I was in a team with 3 other shieldies (I was on my shield scrapper) and I mentioned "This entire team would be pretty unstoppable if we all had grant cover.". The response I received was basically "Well it does nothing for me so I don't like it."

I understand that everyone can play the game they wan't to play it, but I just find it odd that so many people would pass up such a good buff. My scrapper's GC provides a 13% defense boost to my teammates. Back to that team from earlier today, if we all had GC on the entire team would've been soft-capped, even the squishies.

On top of that, the end cost on it isn't too terribly high either. Also, it provides RES against -def and -recharge, which does apply to the user.

Am I just making a big deal out of nothing here or should more shieldies start looking at the bigger picture?

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Currently on Virtue:
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Well I don't take GC on my /SD scrapper to late. The reason is they are tight builds and I don't have the room for it till later.

also the radius only 15 feet(says Mids) so the hole team won't get it unless they are in Melee.

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I took it. I'd recommend it. It just wouldn't be at the top of the list. I can understand scrappers focusing on things other than protecting their very nearby teammates passively.

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I'm taking it.....at 49.

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@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.

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I'm taking it.....at 49.

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Which is where I have it and I have a single lotg in it

Maneuvers is a better overall power due to the larger radius grant cover does give debuff resistance to the scrapper but still it is a pretty overall sad power for a scrapper

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Maneuvers better than Grant Cover? Hmm, dunno. Maneuvers buff for scrapper is extremely minimal and it doesn't even offer any secondary benefits.

I guess I just value Grant Cover from playing so much defender/corruptor that it seems like a given to pick such a selfless ability. I'm fairly sure that not all melee characters soft-cap their defense so this provides that extra bump to provide extra survivability.

Surprisingly, it looks like I'm part of the minority on this one though. Interesting.

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Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider

RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run

In I13 closed beta we went around and around with Castle on this. He was pretty obstinante about making any defense increases in the set.

When Shields started in the Beta they were very very under mitigated. At the low levels due to the presence of machine guns the shielder played like a blapper with no ranged attacks what so ever.

It pretty much was. There was always a machine gun or 2 in a spawn, the debuff lasts long enough that it stacks, the debuff value is 7% and with DOs depending on your slotting you were running 10-15% defense at the most. It was always gone because 2 machine gun hits debuffed it into the floor.

One test I ran was jumping into a swarm of greens and blues in Perez. It was the only scrapper I ever had that actually got killed by doing this.

PF started out providing no defense if you had no allies near by but the ally cap was higher.

GC granted only the current level of defense no debuff resistance.

It became apparent late beta to Castle after receiving a barrage of complaints about squishiness that there actually was a problem with shields.

I'm sure he thumbed through most of our discussions on builds because GC was almost universally discarded by EVERYONE on test. Only a few people that were making scrapfenders actually utilized the power.

One test that many of us ran was a ship raid. We had Shield Brutes, Sheild scrappers, and Shield tankers all in a huge pile and I know that I was running GC to test it and so was at least 2 other players because I had 2 GC icons in my tray.

3 rikti magus hit their stalagmites one right after another and there was the biggest pile of dead "non-squishies" I had ever seen in my life. The only player on my team that survived it was PunchNJudy's Dark/Regen.

It became pretty apparent that Shields was undermitigated but instead of adding defense anywhere Castle increased the resistances in the set.

He put the extra defense debuff resistance that the set needed in GC because "there should not be any powers that are easily skippable"

End result... GC is still skippable because he put the carrot in the wrong place. Scrappers deal damage, the scrapper can't do that if the scrapper is dead, most scrappers are still going to make sure they survive first so they can stay in and do damage.

As far as taking a team buff that's the last thing most scrappers do. There's no point taking a team buff if you can't survive to keep it on the team.

I'm still of the same opinion I was during closed beta. Shields are undermitigated with out IOs and become a powerhouse with them but only for a very expensive build.

From my testing I still believe what I believed in closed Beta. The extra defense debuff resistance that was put into GC to make it "unskippable" belongs in True Grit and GC needs 3% defense that affects the user and is enhanceable.

3% more defense for the Scrapper would make this a power that was not only taken by every sheilder but slotted up as well. Instead of a power that gets taken at level 49, the base slot gets an LotG +7.5 stuck in it, and it only gets turned on if the scrapper is specifically playing a scrapfender or needs the extra debuff resistances.

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

I think you make some really excellent points about the set and what would be some nice changes.

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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

Knight, that's pretty much my impression of that Beta, of playing several Shield users and of pouring over the numbers. Even with the help of all the additions (and they were not insignificant), the set is still far on the low end, I suppose to balance its "team utility."

I kept saying it back then and kept being handwaved, and yet we're seeing it - Grant Cover is not an appropriate power for a Scrapper. Scrappers are going to skip it. Even if a few people specifically made Shield Scrapper to play melee Defenders, most people who picked Scrappers because they wanted to play Scrappers are either going to skip Grant Cover or leave it off for as late as possible.

To me, the whole thing feels like a set designed and implemented for Tankers, and then copied over with no regard that things which are not Tankers don't play like Tankers and that players who didn't pick Tankers might not want the same things. It's not an unworkable set, but then I got an Energy Aura Brute to 50, so my perception is coloured. I do agree that the power should "grant cover" to the user, as well, even if it's not on the same order of magnitude as the cover granted to team-mates.

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Earlier tonight i was playing along side a shielder as my earth/sonic/earth controller. He pops on both Grant Cover AND Maneuvers, and asks, "Check your defense for me." If i recall right i was sitting at 20% or so to all but Psi. I turn on my APP shield and my smash/lethal is up to 42% or so.

I tanked the next group of Warwolves without controls. :P


Also, the -recharge in it is worth so much just by itself. I HATE when i get hit with -recharge.

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I think you're right, blueruckus. Grant Cover is awesome, skipping it if you team often and build for performance is in my opinion a mistake. I've seen that power turning losing battles into victories more often than not.

I didn't take it at first... Then I played with one of my friend who had it. It changed my mind, fast, and I'm not looking back now.

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Glad to see I'm not the only one who sees the big benefit of having it. For a moment there, I thought I was going insane or something.

Really though, taking GC and putting a couple of slots in it is not going to break you. I run it at 3 slots and it provides a 13.5% def. The whole "Scrappers aren't Defenders" thing is really a strange argument considering that you're not really doing much different by taking it. You're still going to go in there and deal damage, but in addition you're also providing a very good defensive boost.

Well, really appreciate the opinions. Thank you.

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Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider

RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that everyone can play the game they wan't to play it, but I just find it odd that so many people would pass up such a good buff. My scrapper's GC provides a 13% defense boost to my teammates. Back to that team from earlier today, if we all had GC on the entire team would've been soft-capped, even the squishies.


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I almost forgot to respond to this specific point.

Maximizing GC actually works against the team's best benefit. It may not seem like it but it is.

(Keep in mind that this is for SOs which is what the game and set is supposed to be balanced around.)

The only way to maximize the benefits of both PF and GC is to have 3 sheilders on the team. Those shielders need to stay in melee range of each other which gives you a triangular formation.

Every spot around your character that is occupied by an ally is a spot that 2 or even 3 mobs belong in.

Most defense debuffs are ranged. Every mob that can't get to melee, because the spot is taken by an ally, will stay at range and use a ranged attack. If that ranged attack is a defense debuff you expose yourself to greater risk by huddling together.

AAO Provides the shielder with both a per mob Self Damage buff and a mob damage debuff. These only work on mobs in melee range. While ranges say that this should work fine in actual practice it does not. If you are surrounded by mobs to saturate AAO you are virtually always out side the range of GC (you are always out of range of PF) and this is in ideal situations.

If there is a crate, wall or other object in the way (and there is almost always a crate, wall or other object to cause problems on most maps) a spot that should be taken by mobs or an ally is taken by an object that does nothing in the mitgation scheme.

When your 3 shielders are turtled up and are built with SOs and are relying on each other to soft cap defenses then you must stay within range at all times during combat or risk a self inflicted cascade failure. Also in this situation if one drops the other 2 will almost always immediately drop as well leaving only the squishies to handle what are now over aggroed mobs.

The only scrappers that I have seen that play in the way that gets maximum benefit from this style are newbs that Leroy into the middle of the room and fight clustered together and are getting this benefit mainly by accident.

Experienced scrappers that actively defend their team do so by turning around mezzers so that cone and TAoE mezzes and debuffs are targetted away from the squishies and their opportunity targets are usually the lieutenants that mez and debuff which frequently prefer range. To take out these targets the shielders have to leave the protective huddle which can initiate self inflicted cascade failure on their team mates.

The worst possible thing that I can think of as a non-melee focused squishy is having a newb shielder standing next to me with a taunt aura running thinking he's saving me by granting me 13% defense.

I would much rather have the AoE bait standing a good 20 feet away to make sure that I'm out of AoE splash radius.

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

Yeah, Grant Cover is pretty useless.
Frankly, if the team needs it, then the Tank isn't doing it's job properly.
And any squishy who needs it's cover is going to be in one hella shock the moment a scrapper bounces to the other side of a mob, to say kill a surgeon on an ITF.

Shields comes with Shield Charge, one of the single best attacks in the game, it's that and AAO that make the set shine, but GC? Useless!
And I agree with the comments on it being underpowered defense wise, it's hella expensive to softcap, (either in terms of powerpicks, slots or Inf) and does need a slight buff in survivability terms.

And to give a little context to this, I just got of an ITF with a Shield Tank. I was on my Blaster (yeah, i've only got one, too many slots used by scrappers I guuess, anyway) He had GC, and yet, somehow, was also Chain Dying, don't know what his slotting was like, but he had all the nescessary powers from his primary, no supporting secondaries, and yet, was still Chain Dying.

Now seriously, if that's happening to the Tank version, which is far superior to what us poor scrappers get, then it surely screams "Buff Meh!"

Oh, and with specific regards to GC, being close enough to benefit meant being close enough to be hit by their AoEs, stray aggro and the occasional mez
Which kind of defeats the point really.

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QR

I took it at 28 on my Fire/Shield and use it quite a bit. My only concern about GC is that it's defense debuff resistance should be truly overpowering. Still scaling, but at level 50 it should allow any shield character to soft-cap defense debuff resistance.

Shields are clearly designed to avoid the Willpower/SoA problem. Both Willpower and the villain epic sets skate very close to overpowered. Willpower wasn't intended to be such. It was supposed to be a set with it's mitigation spread among a number of different delivery mechanisms (resists, +health, regen, defense) but it had just a bit too much of everything. Enough that when supplemented by IOs it becomes unstoppable.

Shields is different in that Castle has struck a better balance, but in the game we're playing now that's a bit weaker than most are used to. Besides the change to GC, I don't think it would be out of line for One with the Shield to have a bit more uptime.

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It's just not a fundamentally useful power.

The defense that it adds to the team only becomes noticeable when there are 2-3 other debuffs available, and it's probably overshadowed by all of them, especially since you probably aren't slotting it. It's also one more toggle in a build full of toggles, and that all adds up.

The def debuff resist feels tacked on to make the power worthwhile, which apparently is the intent. My brute's taking it at 49, but I'll probably only ever run it against piles of enemies that apply def debuffs.

edit: also, it doesn't make any more sense for tanks than it does for scrappers or brutes. Every tank build already gets a 'grant cover' ability in their secondary; they call it taunt.

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@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)

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I'm taking it.....at 49.

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This is pretty much my philosophy as well.

I'd take it earlier if it had a halfway reasonable radius... but it doesn't.

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The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!

Ive taken it (and Manuvers) on my shield Scrapper.

Out of four potential partner characters when I dual box, three are squishies with their own Defence built up to around 20% vs Ranged and AoE via IO bonuses, so the extra Defence and Def debuff resistance are very nice to have.

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I have this on every SD character I own. I like to team, including PUGs, so it just makes sense... Why wouldn't I take a power that helps the Tanker and any other Scrappers on the team stay alive and continue to help me pound on things? If a scrapper spent the majority of playing time solo I could understand it. but with dual builds you can set up a solo and a team build.

Ahhhh well one thing I did discover is that your experience with SD scrappers is NOT the only example of players that place no regard on team mates. I was playing one of my blasters the other day on a PUG with a Kin. Now my blasters all have a serious addiction to SB so the Tank on our team and I were quite happy until the Kin announced.

"I don't have SB. I does nothing of rme so why bother?" Fire Imps aside one of the reasons Kins are so popular is SB and this guy doesn't take it because it doesn't help HIM? Okay we are on the ITF facing Romulus and I'm the STONE tanker now. "Oh gee sorry guys I didn't bother taking taunt since it doesn't help me. Opps sorry Mr. /Kin looks like the healing nictus fust faceplanted you again." There are certain powers out there that just sort of scream out... YOU MUST TAKE ME! While Grant Cover hardly fits into that category not taking it if you like to team just seems wrong. I bet that same guy had no problem taking Phallanx Fighting did he? So it's okay for HIM to get a bonus to his defense off team mates but he can't be bothered to return the favor? *sigh*

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�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
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I took it on my DM/SD, with siphon life I dont need aid self so have a couple of free powers, I even have it 6 slotted with red fortunes. I find it pretty invaluable at keeping people alive including tanks.

It still should give SOME defence to the player like PF

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I have a shield scrapper and tank at lvl 50 and a shield brute around lvl 25. I have not taken GC nor do I plan on it for any of them.

On my scrapper: My goal was to soft-cap defense. GC did nothing for me as a self defensive power. Therefore I took Manuevers instead. True the team buff it gives is not as good as GC but:
1) it has a larger radius meaning more of my teammates have a chance to be in the radius, and
2) it gives ME defense.
Makes Manuevers over GC a better choice IMO.

For my Tank: Again, soft cap was the goal. OK, attack set- Super Strength. Tactics I usually use- Run in the middle. Taunt (maybe ). Shield Charge. Footstomp (insert your best damaging AOE of your set here). Look around for what's left. Look to see if any other team members have done anything yet. Mop up. Mext mob.
I have all the aggro, team members are safe unless they are standing right next to me. GC useless.

For A Brute: Again soft cap. Combine reasons from Scrapper and Tank.


Now with the multiple builds, I could make a build with GC. But then I have to go buy all those IOs all over again, spend time crafting, just to have a build that works almost as good as what I have now. OR I could go play my shield toon as it is and have fun while those others I may team with think I am selfish for not taking GC. (And they would be right! )

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Don't even get me started on Phalanx Fighting,
That's another power in the set that could use a good buff.
You will never, ever have an ally close enough to boost the bonus you get from it. Never.

for the record, I quite often pick up the leadership pool, and have recently rolled a Night Widow in prep for 'going rogue' as it'll be a Scrapper-with-multiple-Auras/Team-buffs,
But Grant Cover?
Hate It!

Granted, it also seems an easy fix, make it grant a small bonus to self, something comparable to weaves 3.75%, and all of a sudden it would become a must have.
Which would also help the set be more comparable to most other secondaries in terms of survivability.

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[ QUOTE ]
Today I was in a team with 3 other shieldies (I was on my shield scrapper) and I mentioned "This entire team would be pretty unstoppable if we all had grant cover.". The response I received was basically "Well it does nothing for me so I don't like it."

....

Am I just making a big deal out of nothing here or should more shieldies start looking at the bigger picture?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many players that do "miss the big picture" as they are too concentrated on themselves.

Tankers that don't take and/or actively use Taunt are "missing the big picture".

What where they missing by not taking Grant Cover?

They were missing 2 additional Grant Covers (yours +2) because they didn't take it. The other players would have 2 additiona Grant Covers because the others didn't take it. And you missed 3 levels of Grant Covers because none of them took it.

What does it do for them?
It allows them to be beneficial to the team.
Some people are too self-centered. They are only thinking about themselves and could care less about what is happening to the rest of the team.
They are making solo characters and then teaming to get the benefit of teaming without actually helping the team to perform better.

Yes. The teams work a lot better and are far more effective if all the members of the team work as a team in order to augment each others powers.
Unfortunately, there are many players that do "miss the big picture" for many reasons. They aren't team-players; they are soloing with a team.

There really isn't anything that you can do about these kinds of players unless you are leader. If you are leader, the only thing you can really do is kick those players from the team and try to find a more team-friendly player - but that is hit-or-miss for sure. I've seen sg/vg's demand power requirements - either you take those powers by a certain level or you are kicked out of the sg/vg.
The only kind of character that you really have any control over is your own. You can do what you think is correct. You can work to be part of a team. You can check out what your team mates are doing and try to make the team better by augmenting what they are doing.

There are active and passive forms of leadership. By augmenting the other characters powers, you are organizing the team into a better functioning team - even if it is just your part. By organizing the team, you are taking on a leadership role on the team - even if you don't have the star.

So don't bang your head into the wall trying to convince other players that some powers are beneficial for teaming. They will either pick them, or they just don't care about teamwork. That's on them.

Suggest tactics or strategies that will help the team function better. If you can get people to listen to that, it is the first foot-in-the-door towards getting someone else to understand what teamwork is. Once a player sees what teamwork can do, eventually some of the benefits of teamwork will seep into their minds. Hopefully, once they start to get a grip on what teamwork is really about, they will begin to understand why helping their teammates is a good thing. Once they understand it is a good thing to help teammate, then those players can begin to rethink how they select their powers and will understand why taking "support" power often is far more beneficial in the "big picture" as compared to just looking out for themselves.

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I suppose to balance its "team utility."

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No, Sam, it's balanced by the extra damage it provides, just like fiery aura. Fortunately for shields, it's far easier to softcap SD than it is FA.

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Be well, people of CoH.

QR

Here is the problem with GC for Scrappers. It comes available at lvl 28, but as a Scrapper you have a lot of needs at that lvl. the last thing on your mine is buffing the team. At that point you are better doing damage then buffing the team.

To say that people self-centered because they don't have the power by lvl 38 is just worng and rude. Lower lvl Scrappers need more attacks to live and by the time lvl 28 comes around they are still working on there def, so if they are like me they might need to take True Grit still, Phalanx Fighting or maybe Against All Odds which will help the team just as much.

For me it comes down to this I want to attack and kill stuff, so at lower lvls with just SO I need more attacks so I can have a attack chain. I don't really start to work on my def till SO so I get my attacks at lower lvl. with my MA/SD I took it at after I lvl up to 50 and put IO in so I could have a good attack chain. While I lvled up with took Thunder Kick, Storm Kick, Deflection, True Grit, Combat Jumping, Crane Kick, Active Defense, Swift, Super Jump, AAO, Health, Stamina, Crippling Axe Kick, Battle Agillity, Dragon's Tail, Phalanx Fighting, Fouus chi, and Eagles Claw. That is all by lvl 32 the first place I would thinkg about taking it is at lvl 30 because Focuse chi, is it really need no but Focuse chi +Shield Charge+ Dragon's Tail is going to help the team more then giving them Def. I will say I could of took it at lvl 32 over Eagles Claw but I like the attack it is cool to watch and does ok damage.

So by lvl 38 I have no were to take this power at all. At lvl 38 I took Boxing to work for Tough and Weave, because when I do solo or on a team that doesn't have a lot of buffs I need to be living longer to do my job which is to kill. I can't kill stuff if I'm dead and GC doesn't work when I'm dead too. Not every team is the perfect team like a team I was on was just a scrapper and 3 blaster. Me the Scrapper need to take the arggo and keep it as best as I can while the Blaster and I kills stuff. If I were to take GC over Phalanx Fighting over Tough and Weave I would have been a dead Scrapper and the blaster would have been dead too.

So after I hit 50 I respec and drop Thunder kick and was able to fit GC in at a later lvl but I just couldn't take it at lower lvls because if I can't live I can't help it is not being self-centered, it is just making my toon the best it can be so I can help out the most.

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