If you want to consider the magnitude separate to who it effects then that's up to you, you can try to nitpick semantics all you want but my statement still remains valid.
The buff itself is "massive" for the fact that it doesn't affect the caster, which makes it useless in the eyes of many scrappers.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
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If you want to consider the magnitude separate to who it effects then that's up to you, you can try to nitpick semantics all you want but my statement still remains valid.
The buff itself is "massive" for the fact that it doesn't affect the caster, which makes it useless in the eyes of many scrappers.
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your statement was and still is incorrect, aside from taking my point OUT of context, insulation sheild and deflection sheild COMBINED are the closest equivilent defences that can be "given" to the amount that GC gives and dont buff the caster.
And as evil geko stated it DOES buff the player, just not with defence
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The worst possible thing that I can think of as a non-melee focused squishy is having a newb shielder standing next to me with a taunt aura running thinking he's saving me by granting me 13% defense.
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Good point. My Blasters' main defense is MOVEMENT. The last thing I want is some scrapper with a taunt aura chasing me around and yelling at me to stop so that they can give me an insignificant little buff.
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Mids is incorrect, GC is just under 14% def to others at base (scrappers) and around 23% def to all slotted up. Thats serious mitigation no matter how you look at it and is far from insignificant. You can see how effective it is on the mission with all the freak tanks at the end, if the tanks (of the hero variety) ventured outside the radius of my GC their HPs started to fall at an alarming rate.
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I can't believe nobody's noticed this. The value shown in Mid's is actually correct. The 20%ish value you're looking at (probably the in-game detailed info) is the amount of given defense debuff resistance. I went in-game to confirm. My shield scrapper who has GC 3 slotted for defense grants 13.28% defense to my teammates. I even asked someone to look in their combat attributes window.
GC does indeed require buffing.
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Low magnitude? dude its better than any defensive giving power in the game, in terms of the defence it gives its better than defenders dispersion bubble, better than arachnos soldiers maneuvers, it fractionally less than having a defenders insulation sheild and deflection sheild cast on you. Its massive mitigation by anyones standards
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It's better than Widows' Maneuvers but not as good as Soldiers'.
I'll buy that it isn't "low" magnitude, but claiming that it is "massive" is preposterous.
To be clear, (following up the previous post) it's an +8.438% defense buff unslotted.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Heres a quote from the Official Guide posted here at the website ::
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The Tanker is the big man of the hero world, combining
massive defense with a powerful, but not exceptionally
quick, offensive punch.
Tankers make effective solo Heroes, at their own deliberate
pace, but they are also in demand by teams,
where their function is to keep enemy attacks off the
lightly defended Blasters, Controllers and Defenders.
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Wait a second. Haven't you stated before that you hate tanker's attitudes of being too full of themselves. That they shouldn't complain if Kinetic players don't spam SB. Now, you're going to use an outdated guide to support something you blasted someone else for doing.
You saying that Taunt is necessary to play a tanker right, is the same as saying a Kinetics has to take SB to be played right. Not all tanks need Taunt, hence, its place as a secondary power. I have many tanks who have no problem maintaining the aggro cap without Taunt. I've managed aggro for plenty of teams without it without a complaint. Obviously it's not needed.
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Yes. Indeed many Tankers do have Tanker-tude.
But if you want respect as the "big man", you have to earn it. Tanker-tude doesn't cut it in my book.
How many times have you heard a Kin (or anyone for that matter) yelling at a Tanker to Taunt?
If you did, I'd say it was a pretty good chance it was me. I've never heard seen anyone else do it.
Yeah, I do think Tanks need Taunt. Was I unclear on that? No.
Did I say anywhere that I thought Kins should bypass having SB? No.
I have been on countless teams where the Tanker did not control agro, thought that they did, and bragged about the fact while those behind them fell because they didn't. Then they had the nerve to blame the other players for not being able to defend themselves.
Jump up and down. Run around in circles. Have fun chasing your tail.
BTW, the guide isn't outdated. That is still the intent of the archetype.
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How many times have you heard a Kin (or anyone for that matter) yelling at a Tanker to Taunt?
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Precisely zero. Maybe it's me, but the teams I'm on, even if they're the "doin mish want in," don't tend to have people who go out of their way to request others do something specific. I've occasionally spoken up about obvious things, such as "Hey, if you use Freeze Arrow on the boss and I hit him with Freeze Ray, we can hold him immediately," or "If you're going to blow things around with Gale, see that you blow them into a corner" but that's about it.
Never noticed whether the Tankers I play with have Taunt one way or the other. Most of the time, it takes me a few missions to figure out who the Tanker even IS.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The worst possible thing that I can think of as a non-melee focused squishy is having a newb shielder standing next to me with a taunt aura running thinking he's saving me by granting me 13% defense.
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Good point. My Blasters' main defense is MOVEMENT. The last thing I want is some scrapper with a taunt aura chasing me around and yelling at me to stop so that they can give me an insignificant little buff.
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Mids is incorrect, GC is just under 14% def to others at base (scrappers) and around 23% def to all slotted up. Thats serious mitigation no matter how you look at it and is far from insignificant. You can see how effective it is on the mission with all the freak tanks at the end, if the tanks (of the hero variety) ventured outside the radius of my GC their HPs started to fall at an alarming rate.
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Mid's is correct. I think you're confusing the Defense Debuff Resistance strength (13.84% at level 50) with the Defense (8.4375%). Because the toggle doesn't grant Defense to the user, it is implemented as two powers and Real Numbers Detailed Info only lists Res to Slow and Defense Debuffs.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
Here's an interesting question - does slotting the power for defence buff increase defence debuff resistance? It seems to do that on my SR Scrapper and on the rest of the powers in Shield Defence, so if it does, that may convince me to slot Grant Cover for more than its default. If Phalanx Phighting gave defence debuff resistance, I might be convinced to slot that, too.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Here's an interesting question - does slotting the power for defence buff increase defence debuff resistance? It seems to do that on my SR Scrapper and on the rest of the powers in Shield Defence, so if it does, that may convince me to slot Grant Cover for more than its default. If Phalanx Phighting gave defence debuff resistance, I might be convinced to slot that, too.
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Slotting defense into Grant cover increases the defense debuff resistance it provides. Slotting defense into phalanx does nothing unless you have an Ally in range and then it gives a minor buff to your defense which comes as a trade off for the damage buff and mob damage debuff that you would get if there was a mob there instead.
Slotting Membranes in Active Defense increases the defense debuff resistance it provides. 3 slotted with membranes + hasten allows you to double stack Active Defense which provides a double dose of defense debuff resistance since it self stacks. The mez protection self stacks too.
Edit - clarity
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Slotting defense into Grant cover increases the defense debuff it provides.
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Reading that as "defence debuff RESISTANCE," then this means I'll be taking and slotting mine. Groovy!
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Slotting Membranes in Active Defense increases the defense debuff resistance it provides.
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Not being familiar with... Are these Hamidon enhancements? Not being familiar with them, I have to ask - Active Defence does not allow slotting for Defence, correct? So these Membrane things would be enhancements you can slot into the power and "sneak in" defence that way, thereby boosting defence debuff resistance. Do I have that about right?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Not being familiar with... Are these Hamidon enhancements? Not being familiar with them, I have to ask - Active Defence does not allow slotting for Defence, correct? So these Membrane things would be enhancements you can slot into the power and "sneak in" defence that way, thereby boosting defence debuff resistance. Do I have that about right?
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They are hamidon enhancements and yes you have that exactly right.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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If you did, I'd say it was a pretty good chance it was me. I've never heard seen anyone else do it.
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Would it be a pretty good chance because they're are so few who find it necessary for the tank to do so? If a player needs taunt to tank well, there's nothing wrong with that. When a player figures a way out where taunt isn't necessary, there's nothing wrong with that either.
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Yeah, I do think Tanks need Taunt. Was I unclear on that? No.
Did I say anywhere that I thought Kins should bypass having SB? No.
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No, elsewhere you got bent out of shape because someone considered Kins lazy if they weren't putting SB out all the time. Now you're calling Tanks bad players if they don't take and use taunt. You're insight is incredibly enlightening, you should post about it in the Tanker forums. I'm sure you'll find no complaints and well reasoned arguments against the idea. You'd certainly prove me wrong if everyone agreed.
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I have been on countless teams where the Tanker did not control agro, thought that they did, and bragged about the fact while those behind them fell because they didn't. Then they had the nerve to blame the other players for not being able to defend themselves.
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I've been on countless teams with bad players too. Of all ATs. It was hardly ever about power choice, but about playstyle. As mentioned previously about the use of KB powers and other team synergy tactics.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
I was going to skip it, until it was pointed out to me it does give you (as well as you teammates) def debuff res and resistance debuff res. Even that Defense enhancement enhances the def debuff res.
Yes, this all has already been said.
What hasn't is that the base 30% recharge debuff res is also enhancable. Recharge enh buffs this. My BS/SD is currently running with almost 75% recharge debuff res (including Winter's gift).
I laugh off slow effects. I also enjoy the set bonuses I get from Gift of the Ancients. 
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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What hasn't is that the base 30% recharge debuff res is also enhancable. Recharge enh buffs this. My BS/SD is currently running with almost 75% recharge debuff res (including Winter's gift).
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Thanks for mentioning that. It might be time to tweak my SD/DM again...
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What hasn't is that the base 30% recharge debuff res is also enhancable. Recharge enh buffs this.
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*blinks*
Woah... learn something new everyday... (I have this feeling that's unintentional since no other rech res power allows it to be enhanced, but I don't know for sure.)
Btw, the def resistance is weird. It's enhanceable on Brutes/Scrappers, but unenhanceable on Tankers. I'm not sure if that's intended or not.
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Yeah, I do think Tanks need Taunt. Was I unclear on that? No.
Did I say anywhere that I thought Kins should bypass having SB? No.
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No, elsewhere you got bent out of shape because someone considered Kins lazy if they weren't putting SB out all the time. Now you're calling Tanks bad players if they don't take and use taunt. You're insight is incredibly enlightening, you should post about it in the Tanker forums. I'm sure you'll find no complaints and well reasoned arguments against the idea. You'd certainly prove me wrong if everyone agreed.
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Ha. Yeah. That's funny.
You know when I start yelling "Taunt tanker, Taunt!"?
Its when I've had enough of the Tank saying repeatedly, "sb me!", "heal me!", whatever "ME".
The Tank not only isn't concerned about why they might not be getting the SB, heal, whatever as quickly as they want it....the Tank is saying "...me".
I've never seen a tank yell out "sb the group". It is always about the tank getting what they want.
That's when I yell, "Taunt tanker, taunt".
And, btw, that's for the benefit of the whole team and not just my character...unlike the tank who is only looking out for themselves.
...oh, and remember what this thread is about? Grant Cover!
And my point was that it was very useful to a team, and the stance has been "well, other powers are more useful to me."
Surprise, surprise!
Tanker-tude is real.
Do you really need to keep proving it in your replies?
PS. I never said a tank was "lazy". A Tanker - posting in multiple forums - was insulting Kins. More Tanker-tude.
It makes me ashamed to play a Tank. Fortunately, when I play a tank, I leave the -tude behind and work with the team.
I've definitely appreciated being guarded by GC on my Scrapper, Blaster and even Tanker (he's WP). However, I did not take the power on my BS/Shield. I guess I solo a bit too much to find it useful, but I do see it as a good power. I'd agree with Werner; take it if you've got room. Your teammates will appreciate it, and it makes a Scrapper an actual help rather than just another damage dealer.
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Yeah, I do think Tanks need Taunt. Was I unclear on that? No.
Did I say anywhere that I thought Kins should bypass having SB? No.
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No, elsewhere you got bent out of shape because someone considered Kins lazy if they weren't putting SB out all the time. Now you're calling Tanks bad players if they don't take and use taunt. You're insight is incredibly enlightening, you should post about it in the Tanker forums. I'm sure you'll find no complaints and well reasoned arguments against the idea. You'd certainly prove me wrong if everyone agreed.
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Ha. Yeah. That's funny.
You know when I start yelling "Taunt tanker, Taunt!"?
Its when I've had enough of the Tank saying repeatedly, "sb me!", "heal me!", whatever "ME".
The Tank not only isn't concerned about why they might not be getting the SB, heal, whatever as quickly as they want it....the Tank is saying "...me".
I've never seen a tank yell out "sb the group". It is always about the tank getting what they want.
That's when I yell, "Taunt tanker, taunt".
And, btw, that's for the benefit of the whole team and not just my character...unlike the tank who is only looking out for themselves.
...oh, and remember what this thread is about? Grant Cover!
And my point was that it was very useful to a team, and the stance has been "well, other powers are more useful to me."
Surprise, surprise!
Tanker-tude is real.
Do you really need to keep proving it in your replies?
PS. I never said a tank was "lazy". A Tanker - posting in multiple forums - was insulting Kins. More Tanker-tude.
It makes me ashamed to play a Tank. Fortunately, when I play a tank, I leave the -tude behind and work with the team.
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Uhm....sorry to say you're wrong here, but you're wrong. Okay, I'm not that sorry. I've seen AT's of ALL types say "SB me". Even controllers. Even defenders. It's not a tanker problem. It's an across the board problem.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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I've definitely appreciated being guarded by GC on my Scrapper, Blaster and even Tanker (he's WP). However, I did not take the power on my BS/Shield. I guess I solo a bit too much to find it useful, but I do see it as a good power. I'd agree with Werner; take it if you've got room. Your teammates will appreciate it, and it makes a Scrapper an actual help rather than just another damage dealer.
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This is pretty much what I did on my DM/Shield. Since I regularly trio with a melee-centric Kin/Dark/Dark Defender and an even more melee-centric Earth/Kin/Earth Controller (he's used to playing tanks), taking it obviously helps them, and pushes the Controller to low-40s for Smashing and Lethal Defense.
Adding... yes, I know two Kins can be redundant, but at least this way they can Speed Boost and Increase Density each other, which is more of what we were going for. They can also Double Speed Boost me (which makes things really go).
My second build, which still needs more work than the first build, is my solo build and will probably just have an unslotted Grant Cover in the 49 slot. Would I mind if it gave a pittance of Defense like Phalanx Fighting? Absolutely not. Not going to get bent out of shape over it, though.
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
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What hasn't is that the base 30% recharge debuff res is also enhancable. Recharge enh buffs this.
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*blinks*
Woah... learn something new everyday... (I have this feeling that's unintentional since no other rech res power allows it to be enhanced, but I don't know for sure.)
Btw, the def resistance is weird. It's enhanceable on Brutes/Scrappers, but unenhanceable on Tankers. I'm not sure if that's intended or not.
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Well, GC allows Defense IO sets, so the Def debuff res should be enhanceable as that's all that can be enhanced with def enhancement. Definitely a bug if it's not enhancing.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
Um, it might be crazy of me to say this, but killing fast with my scrapper, and I mean really fast IS helping the team.
They should be thanking us crazy Leeroy types for helping them earn crazy XP/Inf/Tickets/etc at such a crazy rate.
Do we get thanked or it? No!
They're all "great healz", but never, thankyou for sharing some of that Xp,
and now you want me to buff you too?
Will I be thanked?
flamed probably, but wheres the scrapper love?
I love you, Reyne. Mostly for posting that link.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Um, it might be crazy of me to say this, but killing fast with my scrapper, and I mean really fast IS helping the team.
They should be thanking us crazy Leeroy types for helping them earn crazy XP/Inf/Tickets/etc at such a crazy rate.
Do we get thanked or it? No!
They're all "great healz", but never, thankyou for sharing some of that Xp,
and now you want me to buff you too?
Will I be thanked?
flamed probably, but wheres the scrapper love?
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*shrug* it's not for everyone. The debuff res is still nice, and are the components of the power the scrapper still benefits from. It's why I took the power, I mostly solo.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
IMO, most sets for any AT have two skippable powers in both the prime and the secondary. For scrappers, that is normally the first tier and confront in the prime. In shields (the 2ndary), those powers would be PF and GC. Powers are normaly skipped to make room for the fitness, travel, and what other pool one may want to add to best fit their fighting style. In some cases, concept comes into play and changes the selection. If the scrapper's playstyle is one that moves around dropping one mob guy after the other, then GC would be as benificial as steamy mist is to the team on a storm troller that stays at the back to see everything and cast holds and other mezzes. And that power has a wider range. Some of the post I've read are treating shield scrappers with out GC like an emp that didn't that didn't take fort or RA. The buff is good but a team isn't gonna wipe because the scrapper didn't pick up a power that grants an arms length def buff. I know its longer then that but you get the idea.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
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All the powers you compare it to give the person casting the power the benefits of the buff as well.
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kind of irrelevant as that wasnt what I was talking about, I was refering to it being described as a low magnitude buff when in reality its massive.
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I was referring to the first sentence, I'd use quotes but I'm lazy.
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try reading and being less lazy, let me help you out
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Low magnitude?
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theres the first sentence, the second sentence included referencing insulation sheild and deflection sheild.