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I didn't take GC on my Tank. Why? It doesn't buff me, so why should I take it?
I probably would take it on a tank. As a tank my job would be to protect those around me and GC fits that role.
Not that I play tanks, mind you.
Be well, people of CoH.
It may sound selfish, but I would never take a power that would only buff other players. As a Tank, I need that defense in order to protect other teammates, and if I don't, what good am I if I'm dead? I'm not saying that I would die as a Tank, but I think you know what I'm talking about. Hell, even without it, teams I tend to play on with my SD Tank do fine.
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The worst possible thing that I can think of as a non-melee focused squishy is having a newb shielder standing next to me with a taunt aura running thinking he's saving me by granting me 13% defense.
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Good point. My Blasters' main defense is MOVEMENT. The last thing I want is some scrapper with a taunt aura chasing me around and yelling at me to stop so that they can give me an insignificant little buff.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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3% more defense for the Scrapper would make this a power that was not only taken by every sheilder but slotted up as well. Instead of a power that gets taken at level 49, the base slot gets an LotG +7.5 stuck in it, and it only gets turned on if the scrapper is specifically playing a scrapfender or needs the extra debuff resistances.
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Shield Defense is already very powerful in the hands of an expert; the last thing in the world it needs is an easier time capping defense with a gratuitous 3% extra defense. That's *three* positional set bonuses that can be swapped out for recharge. SD needs no help and I'd prefer if Castle wasn't re-examining the set because I suspect if he did there would only be woe. With soft cap, a passive hit point and resistance buff, and a built in AoE knockdown the set already has better mitigation than my SR and the damage bonuses of AAO combined with a Hastened Shield Charge brings the set to be the best scrapper set IMO already. Can you say 6 minute pylons? Yeah...
As for Grant Cover, the team never gets the bonus because they are never in range while I am up front absorbing the alphas. The only squishie who should ever get the bonus would be the Dark/Rad or similar healer who has to run right up to the tank to do their AoE heal and they will get it only briefly as the heal goes off and they retreat back to range. If it had any kind of reasonable range I might take it on theme scrappers who didn't need the power slot to tweak out the build.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Shield Defense is great when IO'd to the gills. And even without, it's pretty darn good combined with some extra mitigation, like the swords or Dark Melee. But overall, in average hands on an average SO build? I can at least understand the argument that's it's a bit lacking in mitigation. But then, shouldn't it be? It has a big damage buff. Your mitigation is killing the enemy faster.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Alt_oholic,
I think your big picture is skewed. A scrapper's job is to kill. It's not a tank sent in to manage aggro. It's not a defender sent in to buff, debuff or heal. It's not a controller sent in to lock the spawns down.
It has one job: Destroy the enemy.
Grant Cover detracts from that role by forcing the scrapper to hang around either others with GC, or way too close to squishies to provide what defense it does provide while increasing the risk for squishies by bringing more aoe down on their heads.
Either way, it interferes with mobility and thus damage output.
Selfish? No. Job minded? Yes.
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I agree completely. Scrappers kill stuff. That's what they do. If they "help the team," they do so by doing what they do best - kill the stuff before they kill the team. Scrappers are not Tankers, their job is not to control aggro or buff their team-mates. That Scrappers CAN do that is completely besides the point, especially on a team WITH a Tanker. A Scrapper that's not killing is wasting his time and putting his team in danger by not doing his job.
And before we get into Taunt, that has self-worth. More often than not, Taunt/Confront will stop and return runners and the 75% range debuff will bring ranged enemies closer to the Scrapper/Ranker so as to avoid straying too far to chase them.
Grant Cover has almost no self worth and helps in killing stuff and surviving long enough to kill almost in no way whatsoever. What's doubly worse is that it comes at a COST, and not an insignificant one, at that. Not only does it cost, it's not that strong, it's range-limited and requires the Scrapper to do things that not only don't help the team as much as KILLING STUFF does, but can actually put team-mates in danger. Easy example - fighting the Psychic Clockwork King the other day, I specifically asked my sidekick to NOT stand near me or behind me, because he was getting near one-shotted by Psychic Scream. Fighting Bobcat later on, I asked him to keep away and stay to the side, because he was getting slaughtered by Spin and whatever that cone she has is called. When teaming with a Scrapper, there are fewer spots more dangerous than next to said Scrapper.
And besides, I find the notion that "the big picture" means that I have to build for teaming to be absurd. I build to the strengths of my AT and my powersets and I build to facilitate my playstyle. If that means build for soloing, then build for soloing I will. If that means build for killing stuff and killing stuff only, then so be it. Grant Cover may help, but it doesn't help enough to justify its cost.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The worst possible thing that I can think of as a non-melee focused squishy is having a newb shielder standing next to me with a taunt aura running thinking he's saving me by granting me 13% defense.
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Good point. My Blasters' main defense is MOVEMENT. The last thing I want is some scrapper with a taunt aura chasing me around and yelling at me to stop so that they can give me an insignificant little buff.
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Mids is incorrect, GC is just under 14% def to others at base (scrappers) and around 23% def to all slotted up. Thats serious mitigation no matter how you look at it and is far from insignificant. You can see how effective it is on the mission with all the freak tanks at the end, if the tanks (of the hero variety) ventured outside the radius of my GC their HPs started to fall at an alarming rate.
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Shield Defense is great when IO'd to the gills. And even without, it's pretty darn good combined with some extra mitigation, like the swords or Dark Melee. But overall, in average hands on an average SO build? I can at least understand the argument that's it's a bit lacking in mitigation. But then, shouldn't it be? It has a big damage buff. Your mitigation is killing the enemy faster.
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Agreed with everything you said. While leveling with no set bonuses Shield *felt* around the same as my /Fire scrapper in terms of mitigation. Since the set is damage oriented that's as it should be IMO. I don't see the need for a gratuituous 3% defense bump in either case.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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The worst possible thing that I can think of as a non-melee focused squishy is having a newb shielder standing next to me with a taunt aura running thinking he's saving me by granting me 13% defense.
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Good point. My Blasters' main defense is MOVEMENT. The last thing I want is some scrapper with a taunt aura chasing me around and yelling at me to stop so that they can give me an insignificant little buff.
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Mids is incorrect, GC is just under 14% def to others at base (scrappers) and around 23% def to all slotted up. Thats serious mitigation no matter how you look at it and is far from insignificant. You can see how effective it is on the mission with all the freak tanks at the end, if the tanks (of the hero variety) ventured outside the radius of my GC their HPs started to fall at an alarming rate.
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The power's failing is it's radius, not it's defense bonus.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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The worst possible thing that I can think of as a non-melee focused squishy is having a newb shielder standing next to me with a taunt aura running thinking he's saving me by granting me 13% defense.
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Good point. My Blasters' main defense is MOVEMENT. The last thing I want is some scrapper with a taunt aura chasing me around and yelling at me to stop so that they can give me an insignificant little buff.
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Mids is incorrect, GC is just under 14% def to others at base (scrappers) and around 23% def to all slotted up. Thats serious mitigation no matter how you look at it and is far from insignificant. You can see how effective it is on the mission with all the freak tanks at the end, if the tanks (of the hero variety) ventured outside the radius of my GC their HPs started to fall at an alarming rate.
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The power's failing is it's radius, not it's defense bonus.
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the radius is a side effect of its defence bonus, which is massive, significantly more than a FF defenders dispersion bubble or a SOA. You want the defence? Hug the scrapper, its a safe place to be, hes even got a taunt aura
I like GC, I've actually found myself wanting for it when SK'd below 41 when I took it. With just a single extra slot I give 18% extra defense to all those that bother to get in melee near me. A nice added bonus just for basking in the Awesome that is the Scrapper.
I only try to use CG to aid those who should be in melee with me, others just get it when I leap in to save the day and their behind. 
However, I think putting Defense Debuff Resistance in CG was the wrong carrot for the power. Miladys_Knight is right, minor scale protection in the power for the Scrapper is a far better incentive to take Grant Cover. At about 3% Defense, it would certainly make the power more attractive. If Castle thinks that Shields would be too powerful with that Defense boost, well the set has Resistance it can spare.
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The worst possible thing that I can think of as a non-melee focused squishy is having a newb shielder standing next to me with a taunt aura running thinking he's saving me by granting me 13% defense.
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Good point. My Blasters' main defense is MOVEMENT. The last thing I want is some scrapper with a taunt aura chasing me around and yelling at me to stop so that they can give me an insignificant little buff.
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Mids is incorrect, GC is just under 14% def to others at base (scrappers) and around 23% def to all slotted up. Thats serious mitigation no matter how you look at it and is far from insignificant. You can see how effective it is on the mission with all the freak tanks at the end, if the tanks (of the hero variety) ventured outside the radius of my GC their HPs started to fall at an alarming rate.
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OK, I shouldn't have referred to it as an insignificant little buff. But still, keep away from me unless I've slotted up my blasters for some serious defense to stack on it, or someone else on the team is offering me serious defense.
23% defense means maybe 50% damage mitigation. I'm pretty confident that I get more than that by avoiding almost ALL melee attacks through movement, keeping out of the splash AoE, and avoiding many ranged attacks by confusing the AI into chasing instead of shooting. (Edit: And a mixture of PBAoEs, targetted AoEs, short cones and long cones means I'm always on the move anyway, so my damage output can tank if I just stand still.)
It's a great buff for the tank if you're chasing the tank around (assuming not already soft-capped), but don't chase my blaster around. You want to help me out? KILL whatever is causing me trouble. Kill that mezzer. Kill those guys shooting at me.
But yes, the power's failing is its radius, not its buff. And it's logical that they keep the radius small, so I don't see that changing. I'm a big fan of Leadership despite the low numbers because the radius is big enough to typically buff the whole team.
Still, I took the power myself. I chase the tank around. But I wouldn't go near squishies with it, and wouldn't expect them to come near me.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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You want the defence? Hug the scrapper, its a safe place to be, hes even got a taunt aura
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For another melee character, maybe. For a squishy? Not so much. Keep in mind that standing closer to Shield characters (Brute/Scrapper/Tank) means that you'd also be more likely to eat AoEs. Would you rather have more defense but have more attacks against you or less defense and less attacks coming your way?
In most cases, I'd go with the later, since some AoEs are particularly nasty.
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Earlier tonight i was playing along side a shielder as my earth/sonic/earth controller. He pops on both Grant Cover AND Maneuvers, and asks, "Check your defense for me." If i recall right i was sitting at 20% or so to all but Psi. I turn on my APP shield and my smash/lethal is up to 42% or so.
I tanked the next group of Warwolves without controls. :P
Also, the -recharge in it is worth so much just by itself. I HATE when i get hit with -recharge.
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I just use the winters gift set in Combat jumping
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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Don't even get me started on Phalanx Fighting,
That's another power in the set that could use a good buff.
You will never, ever have an ally close enough to boost the bonus you get from it. Never.
for the record, I quite often pick up the leadership pool, and have recently rolled a Night Widow in prep for 'going rogue' as it'll be a Scrapper-with-multiple-Auras/Team-buffs,
But Grant Cover?
Hate It!
Granted, it also seems an easy fix, make it grant a small bonus to self, something comparable to weaves 3.75%, and all of a sudden it would become a must have.
Which would also help the set be more comparable to most other secondaries in terms of survivability.
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it already does give an unenhanceable 3.75% buff to self if you are skipping the power you are robbing your self of no endurance cost defense equal to unslotted weave and more than manuvers
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
I've had GC on my BS/Shield since level 28... because I've been part of a SG superteam of 3 other /Shield scrappers. It put us over the soft cap at 28.
As a solo or more typical PuG scrapper? I'd probably try to fit it in sometime... but I doubt it would be before the mid-40's at the earliest for reasons others have given here.
I do at 45 have a soft capped build solo and have since the mid-30's thanks to a rather sizeable investment in IO sets. (I think I'm around 43.5% to AOE but soft capped to Melee & Range) I don't have Maneuvers or Weave... I got it done with only set bonuses and assuming one parry application to handle the Melee def.
So to make a long story short {too late} it seems to me that GC, while it's well designed for a team of shield characters, really is a bit lacking for your typical team.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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There are many players that do "miss the big picture" as they are too concentrated on themselves.
Tankers that don't take and/or actively use Taunt are "missing the big picture".
. . .
There really isn't anything that you can do about these kinds of players unless you are leader. If you are leader, the only thing you can really do is kick those players from the team and try to find a more team-friendly player - but that is hit-or-miss for sure.
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Your "Big Picture" is not everyone else's. Some people have different ideas of how teams should work. Maybe if you stopped to ask their opinion of how the team would better work out, you'd find out if their as selfish as you think.
You see, some tanks don't need to use taunt. Not with they have more than one aggro aura, and use gauntlet to their advantage. By using that power option for something else, they may be able to do even more for the team. But you're more worried about them pulling aggro for YOU, so why would you care about that?
And advising people to kick non-team players? Just because they don't use powers you prefer them to? Isn't the idea of kicking others for such reasons something you admonished someone in another thread for? [found here] Yet you now consider that an option?
Just accept that others' ideas on how a team should play out, may not always be like your own. This is why a friendlist/SG/VG can be a good thing. It allows you to keep your prefered playstyle with like-minded people.
To the OP:
The people you were playing with are missing out. You're right, grab a bunch of Grant Cover users and as long as those users stay close, insane hijinx will ensue. I run two Shield/ tanks at the same time, who both use GC. The two of them alone can handle crazy situations, while also granting nearby squishies plenty of added help.
But don't be too hard on them. The power is pretty situational, and if you have a hard time finding teams you like, it can be easily wasted as a power choice. My suggestion, find some friends you play with a lot, and convince them of the awe of running an all /Shields scrapper team. You won't regret it.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Don't even get me started on Phalanx Fighting,
That's another power in the set that could use a good buff.
You will never, ever have an ally close enough to boost the bonus you get from it. Never.
for the record, I quite often pick up the leadership pool, and have recently rolled a Night Widow in prep for 'going rogue' as it'll be a Scrapper-with-multiple-Auras/Team-buffs,
But Grant Cover?
Hate It!
Granted, it also seems an easy fix, make it grant a small bonus to self, something comparable to weaves 3.75%, and all of a sudden it would become a must have.
Which would also help the set be more comparable to most other secondaries in terms of survivability.
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it already does give an unenhanceable 3.75% buff to self if you are skipping the power you are robbing your self of no endurance cost defense equal to unslotted weave and more than manuvers
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Phalanx Fighting offers the 3.75% bonus to self, not GC (being why I choose that number) GC does nothing for you, other than the debuff protection.
and I'll still say it does very little for your team.
To put it another way, Shields, as a set has three PBAoE powers, GC, AAO and PF. all of them have ranges that are much smaller than they should be, so the number of bodies you can fit into the area directly around you at any given time, to feed these three auras, is grossly limited.
Or to put it another way, correct positioning is super important with any set, and even more so with Shields.
So (and discarding talk of superteams or duos) there have been some really good points made on why this is a useless power.
Most specifically, under no circumstances should a scrapper or tank need to buff their allies defense. That aggro should be on them.
Not their allies.
Them!
Heck, That's what Taunt is for (on tanks especially), and AAO is one hella taunt aura.
(I can't count the number of times, that while standing next to a WP tank, that I was the one getting the Aggro due to AAO)
And to bring it full circle, you really should be using proper positioning to begin with to limit any excess aggro or leaking enemy damage from cone attacks and the like.
Proper positioning though means actually playing the game and moving around occasionally, which might be a hard concept for some.
The idea of running grant cover for your allies seems just as lazy as being an Empath who puts their heals on Auto and hits follow.
It's a cop-out.
There are far superior tools immediately available to you.
If it at the very least boosted Ally Damage, or offered some other kind of enemy debuff (-tohit even) then I'd probably be saying something different.
But it doesn't.
It sucks.
Please buff it.
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Today I was in a team with 3 other shieldies (I was on my shield scrapper) and I mentioned "This entire team would be pretty unstoppable if we all had grant cover.". The response I received was basically "Well it does nothing for me so I don't like it."
[/ QUOTE ]They're called Scrappers. You can find the word in the dictionary, next to Selfish.
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You see, some tanks don't need to use taunt. Not with they have more than one aggro aura, and use gauntlet to their advantage
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I play tanks. Taunt is better at keeping agro better than any aura or gauntlet.
In fact, tanks were lacking in fulfilling their role so much in the game because they weren't taking Taunt that the DEVs instituted Gauntlet on all Tanker attack/damage powers, so that Tanks were force to take at least some of the agro that they were intended to take.
The picture is bigger than you think some times.
The other Archetypes are there for a reason. They each have a role.
Taunt is there for a reason too. It's their for the tanker's role.
Heres a quote from the Official Guide posted here at the website ::
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The Tanker is the big man of the hero world, combining
massive defense with a powerful, but not exceptionally
quick, offensive punch.
Tankers make effective solo Heroes, at their own deliberate
pace, but they are also in demand by teams,
where their function is to keep enemy attacks off the
lightly defended Blasters, Controllers and Defenders.
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What better power...
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... to keep enemy attacks off the
lightly defended Blasters, Controllers and Defenders.
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...than the one that was created to do that?
It seems to me that a tanker not taking Taunt is denying the whole point of the archetype.
Frankly, I'm not surprised that a reply in this manner in regards to my post.
Grant Cover would help to defend all your teammates, why on Earth would a tanker want to do that?
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Tankers ...function is to keep enemy attacks off the
lightly defended Blasters, Controllers and Defenders.
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Many disagree.
When I play a scrapper, I often hang back with the squishes to kill those that enemies that get through to be in close range with them. This happens quite often as Tanks aren't keeping he agro and/or tanks and scrappers (sometimes PBs and WSs) are rushing ahead and leaving enemies behind that quickly close with the squishes that are behind them.
Grant Cover not only protects the rest of the team, it protect those that are around the scrapper. That means the tanks that are taunting (or should be taunting) and any squishes that are in melee combat range.
People can tell me all day how powers that help the team are negative to team dynamics, but I'm not seeing it.
I don't see how Grant Cover has any Self -SPD or Self Slow characteristics.
It in no way limits mobility.
If you are actively defending that you don't need a power that would help protect your teammates, I have to ask how is it job minded to ignore your teammates?
If you just want to solo, I agree there is no reason to have Grant Cover.
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And besides, I find the notion that "the big picture" means that I have to build for teaming to be absurd. I build to the strengths of my AT and my powersets and I build to facilitate my playstyle. If that means build for soloing, then build for soloing I will. If that means build for killing stuff and killing stuff only, then so be it. Grant Cover may help, but it doesn't help enough to justify its cost.
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You can build your character anyway you want. I know that I do.
You can build your character for soloing PvE or fighting in PvP. The builds are different.
If you are really trying to be a "team-minded" player, then you pick powers differently than you would if you were planning on soloing.
I understand why players are frustrated when they feel that they are sacrificing for the good of the team and the others could care less. You admit it would be a sacrifice to take the power that would aide the team.
I would say the same goes for play styles.
It's up to you if you want to be a team player or not. Its up to you to decide if you want to play as part of a team or expect others to play as a team by following you while you do your thing. I'm not saying you do that or not. I don't know what you do or how you play if I haven't been on a team with you.
I play all different kinds of characters, but by-and-large I'm always trying to look after my team mates if I'm a team leader or just a member of the team.
Some players don't care if they fall in combat or if others fall in combat. I know that I do. Falling in combat is a punishment.
Fewer and fewer players are treating it that way.
I expect people to be defensive. We all are.
I still think that you would want to protect your friends if you could, but maybe I'm wrong.
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In fact, tanks were lacking in fulfilling their role so much in the game because they weren't taking Taunt that the DEVs instituted Gauntlet on all Tanker attack/damage powers, so that Tanks were force to take at least some of the agro that they were intended to take.
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That's not true. Gauntlet was instituted either before the change that made Taunt into an AoE, or at the same time as that change. It's ridiculous to say that "Tanks weren't doing their job" when the game launched with Taunt as a single-target-only power and many Tankers instead took Provoke. Somehow, even before then, Tankers still managed to do "their job" (which is a heck of a way to describe playing a game) with only single-target taunt or, because that's fairly useless at controlling large aggro, just their own bodies and their own attacks. Believe it or not, there was a time when Tankers were considered to be more than mere taunt bots.
To illustrate, I play Scrappers, and a good Taunt aura is a HELL of a lot better than a single-target Taunt will ever be at controlling aggro.
Furthermore, you may choose to stay behind and protect the squishies from errant enemies that stray their way, but that's your choice in disregarding the Scrapper's intended role, which is a boss killer, and that's coming straight out of Jack's mouth. Since they have not been rebalanced or repurposed since he left and no-one has spoken about altering their intended purpose, claiming that's what they should be doing is false. Scrappers do damage. If you choose to not use it on the targets that NEED to be damage hard and fast, that's up to you, but those of us who do choose to do things otherwise are not, in the slightest, in the wrong.
Furthermore, the notion that squishies cannot take care of themselves is absurd. Yes, a boss and his whole posse barelling down on them is always bad news, but we're talking stragglers that slip by the tank, right? Surely a Controller would have an errant debuff or two laying around, or a Blaster would have a hard-hitting melee attack he can't get close enough to the boss to use at the moment that can take care of it. I mean, as the sole melee on a team more often than not, I miss a LOT of stragglers, and with just Confront, it's hard to control them, yet my (usually sidekicked) allies still seem to be able to handle one or two minions by themselves.
I'm going to say that, occasionally, dividing responsibility like that is prudent, very much so. I had a doomed Hollows team fighting +2 Minions of Igneous that we managed to salvage by having one Tanker take point and control aggro and one Tanker hang back with the squishies and catch things the first Tanker missed because it was the squishies who always wiped and we melee soon followed when we lost our support. But that was a team seriously struggling at level, like, 12 or some such with players who were, for the most part, badly inexperienced.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Alt_oholic,
I think your big picture is skewed. A scrapper's job is to kill. It's not a tank sent in to manage aggro. It's not a defender sent in to buff, debuff or heal. It's not a controller sent in to lock the spawns down.
It has one job: Destroy the enemy.
Grant Cover detracts from that role by forcing the scrapper to hang around either others with GC, or way too close to squishies to provide what defense it does provide while increasing the risk for squishies by bringing more aoe down on their heads.
Either way, it interferes with mobility and thus damage output.
Selfish? No. Job minded? Yes.
Be well, people of CoH.