New "Market Myths" Guide?
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2009-05-29 10:45 in The Market and Inventions
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Myth: "Casual" players can't afford stuff because of evil marketeers
Fact: etc etc
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Might also be a good idea to point out that marketeering is one of the easiest ways to make money for a casual player. Hell, I've made 150 million or so over the past week, and the only time I've done anything in-game but sit around and RP was a few hours spent missioning a new corruptor up to level 8. Also that casuals, moreso than anybody else, might have the best opportunities for low prices because they won't mind waiting two days for a low bid to fill if they only play twice a week anyway.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
There's a considerable amount of emotional investment involved in people's antimarket stances. Also, many people are bad at math and don't trust it.
I've been thinking about making a defensive marketing guide, something like "how to avoid making me rich" , but my current belief is that my target audience would rather spit on me than listen to anything I have to say. I may let optimism sway me at some point.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Also that casuals, moreso than anybody else, might have the best opportunities for low prices because they won't mind waiting two days for a low bid to fill if they only play twice a week anyway.
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Bear in mind that what I'm about to say should in no way be considered a defense of the perspective I'll describe.
I think the breakdown is in people's defintion of "casual." I don't even mean that in the sense of the tongue-in-cheek way we talk about "mythical casual gamers." I mean that I think paying attention to the market's trends in any meaningful way is so alien and undesirable for a lot of people (or at least a few vocal people) that they consider any effort to do so the furthest thing from "casual" they can imagine.
This is distinct from whether the actual mental energy involved is hard, or takes a lot of time. (To be fair, I do think it takes a non-trivial amount of mental energy - probably more than playing PvE does for long-time players.) No matter how little effort might be involved, if you don't like that type of effort or reject the market thematically, the actual effort needed picks up large magnification because they don't like the effort.
Of course I think this obscuring factor works both ways. These people see the market as this monsterous thing they can't imagine approaching and they figure everyone must see it that way and it should be changed or even removed on that basis. They see people talk about how the market is good for "casual" players and they scoff, unable to imagine how that's possible.
Blue
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Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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There's a considerable amount of emotional investment involved in people's antimarket stances. Also, many people are bad at math and don't trust it.
I've been thinking about making a defensive marketing guide, something like "how to avoid making me rich" , but my current belief is that my target audience would rather spit on me than listen to anything I have to say. I may let optimism sway me at some point.
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I haven't seen any sign that the market haters have been willing to listen for 2 years. Oh one or two have come around and realized the truth but most have continued their blind mindless rage at the amounts they see on the market and have to blame other players for it no matter how many obvious examples show it's not ebil marketeers buying the items at the highest prices.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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There's a considerable amount of emotional investment involved in people's antimarket stances.
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This is the exact reason I want to get this guide out there. Separating fact from opinion is the first step in hopefully getting people to feel better about the market...or at least not want to spit on you. And I really don't want to explain why marketeers don't care about common salvage (or whatever) 100 times.
I know I've also seen Nethergoat denounce the lazy/impatient a million times and it'd be nice to get his valid point down in an objective and informative manner so it doesn't piss so many people off. 
D
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There's a considerable amount of emotional investment involved in people's antimarket stances.
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This is the exact reason I want to get this guide out there. Separating fact from opinion is the first step in hopefully getting people to feel better about the market...or at least not want to spit on you. And I really don't want to explain why marketeers don't care about common salvage (or whatever) 100 times.
I know I've also seen Nethergoat denounce the lazy/impatient a million times and it'd be nice to get his valid point down in an objective and informative manner so it doesn't piss so many people off.
D
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Never forget, they are pissed off already. The ones who aren't post differently and learn.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Speaking of Nethergoat, I think he was an early market hater. Well, some pro-market guy around here was and I think it was him.
I was the "goat" of this forum 2 years ago while Capn Canadian was the cool head of niceness. He pops in every now and then but he seemingly got tired of trying to get through the market haters walls.
[edit] I was nice before we had the market forum when the market was in open beta trying to calm the anti-loot forces. By time we got the forum I was tired of trying to explain to them how this was the best friend the casual player ever got to afford SOs by 22.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Maybe Im just too much of a cynic, but my thought is that while this would be a fun thread to play with, it wont do much to vanquish the myths and misconceptions about the market.
There seems to me there is a little too much of the attitude, Ive made up my mind, dont confuse me with facts when it comes to the market. Anyone whose mind can be changed only needs to be directed to this forum and all the market information already therein. Anyone who feels that the market and the ebil market creatures are the scourge of CoX civilization as they know it wont be convinced no matter what gets posted. Im reminded of an axiom that goes something along the lines of Horse, meet water. Drinking is optional.
Now granted, I could be wrong. This thread may herald the enlightenment of all haters of the market. It may signal the end of long needles being shoved into voodoo dolls representing the ebil ones by those who believe all marketeers have 666 burned into their left butt cheek. However, entertainment value aside, the chances that this thread will dispel the market myths are about as likely as pounding sand down a rat hole will be adopted as a viable means of vector control in cities across the nation.
No matter which scenario is correct, this thread does have some amusement potential. So by all means, listen not to someone not truly ebil, but only vaguely naughty, when it comes to the market. Go forth, spread the word, and may your luck be good.
This PSA brought to you by Night Mission Enterprises: Dont call us, we wont call you.
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I've been told that sometimes my lucidity is frightening.
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Your logic is no match for concentrated stupid. - Organica
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Current MAs:
Stop the catgirl rampage! #66361
Interesting question for Stillhart: How many people would you have to convert to your thinking for the guide to be "worth it" to you? One? Five? All?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone. It's more of a public service to US, the people that are constantly explaining the same things over and over. I'd rather be able to point someone to a guide that does its best to remain factual and objective on basic misconceptions. It's a tool that anyone can use to convert or not as they please. A reference.
Let me get to 2Billion INF first ... then we can let them in on our ebil ways.
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Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone. It's more of a public service to US, the people that are constantly explaining the same things over and over. I'd rather be able to point someone to a guide that does its best to remain factual and objective on basic misconceptions. It's a tool that anyone can use to convert or not as they please. A reference.
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Sounds more like a FAQ geared towards debunking.
Which would be a good idea, because, as you've pointed out, a lot of the same things get explained over and over and over again in here. And that can be a problem...
Answer 1: "Well, I can certainly understand why you've developed that perception, my friend, but, I assure you, it just isn't the case. 
Please allow me to explain..."
Answer 10: "No. You're wrong. And I'll prove it..."
Answer 25: "No no no no no no. False. Wrong. You think that's how it works? Prove it. Otherwise, shove off. You're talking crap."
Answer 50: "You're a [censored] moron. That is all."
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-QR-
I certainly wouldn't want to say anything to dissuade your Guide efforts.
As the author of a guide on one of the easiest Marketing techniques there is, I fully
understand the desire to try to be helpful.
Unfortunately, when I read the amount of negative feedback that garnered, and I compare
it to threads here, and even the recent thread in the Base forum, all I can say is "Good Luck".
The totally emotional (and irrational) response of so called "market haters" shows
a mindset that has already been locked in and prevents any possibility of understanding
how things actually work for those people.
As Nightmission says, folks that can set aside that response (or at least contain it), can
already gain the knowledge that would get them the rest of the way past blind prejudice.
Perhaps your guide can be a helpful piece in that puzzle.
Unfortunately, there's also a real possibility that it might be perceived as "market
lies from a marketeer, trying to exploit/manipulate casual gamers".
I'd hope not, but sadly, some folks are certain that the Market is evil, and some folks
are certain the Earth is 6000 years old. Actual facts have no place in either group's
mindset.
Good Luck with your Guide - I hope it outperforms my pessimism.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone. It's more of a public service to US, the people that are constantly explaining the same things over and over. I'd rather be able to point someone to a guide that does its best to remain factual and objective on basic misconceptions. It's a tool that anyone can use to convert or not as they please. A reference.
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Sounds more like a FAQ geared towards debunking.
Which would be a good idea, because, as you've pointed out, a lot of the same things get explained over and over and over again in here. And that can be a problem...
Answer 1: "Well, I can certainly understand why you've developed that perception, my friend, but, I assure you, it just isn't the case. Please allow me to explain..."
Answer 10: "No. You're wrong. And I'll prove it..."
Answer 25: "No no no no no no. False. Wrong. You think that's how it works? Prove it. Otherwise, shove off. You're talking crap."
Answer 50: "You're a [censored] moron. That is all."
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This is 100% exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks!
And here I was just about to post how you guys are no flippin help at all! 
One common problem with people [in general] is that sometimes you don't reset to answer 1 when someone asks question 1 for the first [to them] time... I try not to start with answer 50 to question 1, but sometimes it happens.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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There's a considerable amount of emotional investment involved in people's antimarket stances.
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The people who are anti-farming are even worse. These people (from both 'anti' groups [market and farming]) will simply here the word market or farm and automaticly stop listening and proclaim how either have ruined the game.
For those who believe, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is possible.
Currently Playing:
A bunch of toons! (Freedom, Virtue, and a few on Infinity)
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One common problem with people [in general] is that sometimes you don't reset to answer 1 when someone asks question 1 for the first [to them] time... I try not to start with answer 50 to question 1, but sometimes it happens.
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'Zactly.
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Myth: Stuff on the market is too expensive.
Fact: Then sell while the prices are high instead of buy. You can buy next week after you made a ton of money this week by selling. Until then, stick an SO or a Common in that slot. Your build has been working fine the way it is. You can wait a week for the shiney.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
To make sure I'm being clear:
I don't think it should be a guide. It should be composed as a FAQ.
Then you can ask to get it stickied in this forum.
That'll give it an implicit stamp of official approval.
But to warrant that stamp, it's gotta be hard facts.
It would primarily be a help to the regulars in here, and might also cut down some of the rile-ups that occur.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
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Speaking of Nethergoat, I think he was an early market hater. Well, some pro-market guy around here was and I think it was him.
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i was never a hater, thank goodness.
My big early mistake was defending the Black Market vs Wentworth's on the basis that the smaller supply pool and lower overall amount of inf available would result in lower prices. "yeah it's smaller, but players will realize that and price accordingly", or some similar nonsense.
Thankfully, it didn't take me long to wise up.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I know I've also seen Nethergoat denounce the lazy/impatient a million times and it'd be nice to get his valid point down in an objective and informative manner so it doesn't piss so many people off.
D
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i've been doing a little bit of research on a potential guide along the lines of "if you can't get rich doing this, buy some rope and learn to tie a noose".
On a new Mastermind I went back to, literally, one of the first niches I ever figured out, one which I've "blown" literally dozens of times on this forum in the years since- the lowly level 50 Flight Speed IO.
Buy for 50-100k, sell for 200-400k.
Daily turnover, consistent return.
Another SUPER lowbie trick that's been working is:
Buy large resistance inspirations for 1k.
combine three to make a large defense.
Sell for 200k.
There are literally dozens of dirt simple, guaranteed tricks like this that anyone can do. And they've all been mentioned here, most of them on a weekly basis.
That's what I mean when I denigrate the poor by choice. If you want to make inf, it's almost literally lying around on the ground. If you're too lazy to bend over and pick it up, your complaints about being a pauper ring hollow.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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And here I was just about to post how you guys are no flippin help at all!
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Flippin help? Isnt there a couple of guides about flipping already up somewhere? Oh wait, that wasnt what you were talking about. So sorry, me badness.
Alright, alright, enough with the jokes. Let me adjust my helmet and gird up the lance for a tilt at ye ol windmill. With the Myth/Fact format youre proposing, add a link to a relevant guide from the guide and FAQ section whenever possible.
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For example:
Myth: "Casual" players can't afford stuff because of evil marketeers"
Fact: Casual players now have more flexibility in being able to afford stuff, and the ebil marketeers cant do anything from stopping casual players from getting the stuff they want. Instead of finding the time to run a TF to earn a recipe, causal players can now build up a stockpile of merits on their own to make recipe reward rolls or save them to buy a specific recipe outright. You can do this by simply by running arcs and O-zone flashbacks. Tickets earned running MA arcs can take the sting out of buying those rare salvage drops and can also be used to make recipe reward rolls. All of these are techniques that take ebil marketeers out of the equation entirely.
Additionally, learning a little about how the market works and what strategies work for the causal player can go a long way in speeding up the process of getting what you want. Two good guides for causal players can be found here, for an overview of the market, and here, for tips for the casual player. The main point is that you dont have to flip salvage or join the billionaires club in order to get what want. You can take the slow and sure way of earning merits and tickets or you can make the market work for you without earning a degree in economics.
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Now that example is a bit off the top of my head and may require some editing before being released to the general masses, but the basic format not only refutes the myth without being confrontational, but gives the reader the option of looking up more information on the topic if they want.
The whole horse and water axiom still applies, but I think if you want a guide where you can tell folks to look here so we dont have to engage in yet another round of flogging the zombie equine this might work.
There. I helped in spite of my cynicism.
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I've been told that sometimes my lucidity is frightening.
---
Your logic is no match for concentrated stupid. - Organica
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Current MAs:
Stop the catgirl rampage! #66361
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Myth: Average players are worse off because of the market
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Fact:
<ul type="square">[*]I had characters in the 30's that didn't have enough inf to completely slot with DO's before the Market existed.[/list]Fact:
<ul type="square">[*]The average player can sell their IO salvage and recipes to contacts and have more inf than my characters did before the Market came out.[*]If they sell their IO salvage on the Market, they can make even more inf.[*]If they even take half a minute to think about how the Market operates...[/list]
Hmmm perhaps I could write a guide that leaves out flipping.
I could call it the "A Morally Superior guide to profitting at an Altruistic Wentworths."
Anyone think that would fly?
I wouldn't do a red side guide since the red side folks are SUPPOSED to be evil and take advantage where they can.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
So I'm thinking of putting together a guide with common misconceptions about the market in CoX and facts to debunk them. I'd like to get feedback from you, the ebil ones, about what kinds of things you think belong in there, threads with good info, etc so I'm not recreating the wheel. I see a lot of the same fallacies going around and it'd be nice to have a guide to point people at and say, "You're wrong about X and this link shows why," rather than having to explain anew every time.
What do you guys think?
Some things I've been thinking about:
Myth: Rich marketeers ruin the common salvage market
Fact: Rich marketeers don't bother because of the low profits and limited slot usage, proof, etc etc
Myth: People who make money on the market cause prices to go up
Fact: Pull some good stuff from the inflation thread
Myth: "Casual" players can't afford stuff because of evil marketeers
Fact: etc etc
Myth: Average players are worse off because of the market
Fact: etc etc
Myth: Marketeers feed on the poor
Fact: Marketeers feed on the IMPATIENT, etc etc
Maybe throw in some simple money-making strategies or point to some of the awesome existing guides for this stuff.
I'll post more as they come to me. I'm at work and can't put a ton of thought into it right this second. Thoughts?