Fodder for the Canon: Ask your lore questions here
By
Abraxxus,
Posted on: 2009-05-29 10:25 in Developers' Corner
I was running the Praetorian arc last night, and something occured to me that I have not really seen elsewhere. In Dominatrix's description, it states that she killed her mother, the beloved heroine Miss Liberty. The description also uses the term 'infamous' to describe Miss Liberty. This is a generally negative term. So..does this mean that Miss Liberty, the mother of Dominatrix, had actually rebelled against her father Tyrant and actually been a real hero?
Does this question make sense? Also, eww about serving Tyrant loyally 'in all capacties.'
Old Gray Soldier-Level 50 MA/SR Scrapper-Virtue
Hunter Omega Prime-Level 50 WS
Dead Lord-Level 50 Necro/FF MM-Liberty
Grand Glory-Level 39 Arachnos Bane-Freedom
Considering the Cole family's long-standing take on things, I'd always assumed it to be so. Tyrant is evil, his daughter rebels and goes good. Miss Liberty is good, her daughter rebels and goes evil. Take that Mom, I'm shacking up with Gramps. 
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
[ QUOTE ]
Circle of Thorns question:
If you kill a CoT member, presumably only the body dies and the Oranbegan spirit is once again rendered incorporeal until it can find a new body, correct?
Can the Oranbegan spirits actually be killed off permanently? If you kill a spectral, does it actually die? Or are you just weakening it so it needs to recover its strength before it can manifest again?
[/ QUOTE ]
It depends on whether or not your name is Sam Winchester. He and his girl Ruby seem to have a permanant supernatural solution for that kind of thing.
Question: When Lady Grey stole some of Honeree's essense during that last big battle in the comic, she said something like "May I have some of your years."
That made me wonder, is that what Council vamps and dark melee characters do? I made a dark melee character yesterday and it freaked me out that I was stealing years off of peoples' lives. That's definitely a post golden agey-thing for a hero to do to win.
[ QUOTE ]
... I made a dark melee character yesterday and it freaked me out that I was stealing years off of peoples' lives.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sometime after you've brought your "friends" back to this plane of existence by infusing them with the soul of a bus stop... in a city that has no buses... you become hardened to the whole thing 
Miuramir, Windchime, Sariel the Golden, Scarlet Antinomist...
Casino Extortion #4031: Neutral, Council+Custom [SFMA/MLMA/SLMA/FHMA/CFMA]
Bad Candy #87938: Neutral, Custom [SFMA/MLMA/SLMA/FHMA/HFMA]
CoH Helper * HijackThis
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Circle of Thorns question:
If you kill a CoT member, presumably only the body dies and the Oranbegan spirit is once again rendered incorporeal until it can find a new body, correct?
Can the Oranbegan spirits actually be killed off permanently? If you kill a spectral, does it actually die? Or are you just weakening it so it needs to recover its strength before it can manifest again?
[/ QUOTE ]
It depends on whether or not your name is Sam Winchester. He and his girl Ruby seem to have a permanant supernatural solution for that kind of thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Who?
[ QUOTE ]
Question: When Lady Grey stole some of Honeree's essense during that last big battle in the comic, she said something like "May I have some of your years."
That made me wonder, is that what Council vamps and dark melee characters do? I made a dark melee character yesterday and it freaked me out that I was stealing years off of peoples' lives. That's definitely a post golden agey-thing for a hero to do to win.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bolded for emphasis. I would like you to think about that for a second.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
Question: When Lady Grey stole some of Honeree's essense during that last big battle in the comic, she said something like "May I have some of your years."
That made me wonder, is that what Council vamps and dark melee characters do? I made a dark melee character yesterday and it freaked me out that I was stealing years off of peoples' lives. That's definitely a post golden agey-thing for a hero to do to win.
[/ QUOTE ]
One of Lady Grey's signature powers is an aging touch. See the CCG.
@Cannonfodder
Victory: The Hall of Justice Virtue: The Hall of Doom
Slash Commands, Binds and Macros, Oh My!, CoV Stat Booster Accolade Cheat-Sheet, Don't Let Me Make Money Off Your Ignorance!!!, Day Job Acquisition Guide, "Tricky" TA
More questions, this time about extraterrestrial and multidimensional beings:
1) Extraterrestrials: Aside from the Kheldians and the Nictus, are there any other examples of sentient extraterrestrial life in the CoH universe? For example, the Nova and Dwarf forms that Kheldians take, are they based on sentient alien life, or are they just alien animals?
2) Multidimensional: We know about the Rikti, the Hydra, and to a lesser extent, the 'Minions' of Igneous, but are there any others? Portal Corp explores/catalogs a multitude of dimensions each day, some of them must have life vastly different from 'Human normal'?
"It's hard for you to be yourself, if you don't know who you really are."
Considering what we know about the Rikti, (that is that they are highly-mutated humans from another dimension, first mutated after encountering an advanced alien race.) We also know that they are born as what we would consider normal. Are there adult 'normal' humans living on the Rikti homeworld, either because the mutations did not take, or because they are used for some other purpose - slave labour, organ farms, etc... or for other undisclosed canonical reasons?
"Don't you know dead is spelled m-e-n-t-a-l in CoH? - SapphireShot
Jumping back a couple posts to the Nemesis thing:
I was led to believe by the in game info attached to Fake Nemesis that each one of them is basically a sentient decoy, though not to the point of believing that they ARE Nemesis. Rather, they know they're just minions, I've even heard one say something along the lines of "If I take this guy down then Lord Nemesis will surely be proud of me and give me a promotion!". However, Nemesis himself is also fully capable of taking control of any given Fake Nemesis at will like so many remote control automobiles, to the point of speaking directly through them. I seem to remember a friend telling me about a mission where you're sent after Nemesis but you find a Fake and the real one speaks through it to tell you "Enjoy the decoy, I'm like a bajillion miles away right now, nya nya!". So to make a long story short, the Fakes are fully sentient minions who just happen to look like Nemesis, but the real one can control and speak through them at will.
Hello again,
More answers posted on the Canon Fodder thread today. This week's questions all came from the players in Europe.
More answers to follow!
~M
[ QUOTE ]
After defeating someone like Frostfire, the Hellions dont hold a lot of challenge for a hero and its time to move up to greater threats.
[/ QUOTE ]
You meant to say Outcasts instead of Hellions, correct? Also, any chance of the Hellions actually getting their own AV/EB at any point in the future? And the Skulls too? It seems like just about every other group has some big-wig calling the shots except them (I'm not remembering every group right now, there's probably others without AV/EBs too, and I wouldn't be against them getting their own as well). Vahzilok have Dr. Vahzilok, Clockwork have the Clockwork King, CoT have quite a few, Outcasts have Frostfire, all of the higher level groups have at least one AV. Even if the Hellions and Skulls are just rival gangs in a never-ending turf war, it seems that there should be more than just a few named bosses running the show.
@Johnstone & @Johnstone 2
ediblePoly.com
All my characters
Your answer to the Kheldian question looks like a complete 180 from the info presented in the bios for Sunstorm and the PPD Kheld cops.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After defeating someone like Frostfire, the Hellions dont hold a lot of challenge for a hero and its time to move up to greater threats.
[/ QUOTE ]
You meant to say Outcasts instead of Hellions, correct?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed and great catch. Many thanks.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After defeating someone like Frostfire, the Hellions dont hold a lot of challenge for a hero and its time to move up to greater threats.
[/ QUOTE ]
You meant to say Outcasts instead of Hellions, correct? Also, any chance of the Hellions actually getting their own AV/EB at any point in the future? And the Skulls too? It seems like just about every other group has some big-wig calling the shots except them (I'm not remembering every group right now, there's probably others without AV/EBs too, and I wouldn't be against them getting their own as well). Vahzilok have Dr. Vahzilok, Clockwork have the Clockwork King, CoT have quite a few, Outcasts have Frostfire, all of the higher level groups have at least one AV. Even if the Hellions and Skulls are just rival gangs in a never-ending turf war, it seems that there should be more than just a few named bosses running the show.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hellions have 3K Kelvin, and Supposedly have a leader, and the Skulls have Brothers that lead it, The Hellion Leader is likely just a Fire/Fire Insert AT here, and the Skull leaders are probably a Dark/Dark corr and a Dark/Dark Brute.
[ QUOTE ]
Your answer to the Kheldian question looks like a complete 180 from the info presented in the bios for Sunstorm and the PPD Kheld cops.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey there Vanden,
I PMed you for more info about your concern but after re-reading my post I see where the contradiction is. Consider it fixed! Thanks for the eagle eyes.
~M
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your answer to the Kheldian question looks like a complete 180 from the info presented in the bios for Sunstorm and the PPD Kheld cops.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey there Vanden,
I PMed you for more info about your concern but after re-reading my post I see where the contradiction is. Consider it fixed! Thanks for the eagle eyes.
~M
[/ QUOTE ]
Eeeeerm... it seems like the canon fodder thread's been um... deleted...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After defeating someone like Frostfire, the Hellions dont hold a lot of challenge for a hero and its time to move up to greater threats.
[/ QUOTE ]
You meant to say Outcasts instead of Hellions, correct? Also, any chance of the Hellions actually getting their own AV/EB at any point in the future? And the Skulls too? It seems like just about every other group has some big-wig calling the shots except them (I'm not remembering every group right now, there's probably others without AV/EBs too, and I wouldn't be against them getting their own as well). Vahzilok have Dr. Vahzilok, Clockwork have the Clockwork King, CoT have quite a few, Outcasts have Frostfire, all of the higher level groups have at least one AV. Even if the Hellions and Skulls are just rival gangs in a never-ending turf war, it seems that there should be more than just a few named bosses running the show.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hellions have 3K Kelvin, and Supposedly have a leader, and the Skulls have Brothers that lead it, The Hellion Leader is likely just a Fire/Fire Insert AT here, and the Skull leaders are probably a Dark/Dark corr and a Dark/Dark Brute.
[/ QUOTE ]
3K Kelvin is a long way from the Hellions' main turf.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Manticore-- in regards to the 5th Column question, what that person is getting at is that parts of the new TFs contradict established canon, aren't well explained, or make little sense. Have you read the Hero and Villain TF feedback threads? We've had no response to the story issues raised in them aside from the replacement of Akarist with a Malta AV.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
[ QUOTE ]
Manticore-- in regards to the 5th Column question, what that person is getting at is that parts of the new TFs contradict established canon, aren't well explained, or make little sense. Have you read the Hero and Villain TF feedback threads? We've had no response to the story issues raised in them aside from the replacement of Akarist with a Malta AV.
[/ QUOTE ]
In fact, I just posted about this in the SF Feedback thread.
The original Axis America mission disappeared when the Council took over (and they were replaced by the Council Empire).
Remember how that was a continuity nightmare with a heavy-handed cut-and-paste of all 5th Column references replaced by Council references such that it seemed that the 5th Column was retconned out of existence rather than historically taken over?
The Ouroboros TF brought back the 5th Column as really being part of the history of the game world and not retconned out of existence. The Imperious TF furthered that.
And now with the 5th Strike and Task forces, they're actually back and in our time line. However, in the Barracuda Strike Force, we visit Reichsman's home dimension and...
REICHSMAN'S DIMENSION IS COMPOSED OF ONLY 5TH COLUMN FOES!
That is very, very jarring, since that is a complete rewrite of the history of Reichsman's origins. Now we're back to a heavy-handed cut-and-paste of Axis America being replaced not by the Council Empire this time, but by our own Primal Earth 5th Column troops, which directly contradicts what you, Sean, are saying about the 5th Column being solely a Primal Earth faction.
I appreciate how, by player requests, Lord Recluse's tone and demeanor has changed and how Akarist was pulled from the Task Force. But, our notes on the mysterious absence of Axis America and the mysterious ubiquity of the 5th Column continue to go unaddressed.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After defeating someone like Frostfire, the Hellions dont hold a lot of challenge for a hero and its time to move up to greater threats.
[/ QUOTE ]
You meant to say Outcasts instead of Hellions, correct? Also, any chance of the Hellions actually getting their own AV/EB at any point in the future? And the Skulls too? It seems like just about every other group has some big-wig calling the shots except them (I'm not remembering every group right now, there's probably others without AV/EBs too, and I wouldn't be against them getting their own as well). Vahzilok have Dr. Vahzilok, Clockwork have the Clockwork King, CoT have quite a few, Outcasts have Frostfire, all of the higher level groups have at least one AV. Even if the Hellions and Skulls are just rival gangs in a never-ending turf war, it seems that there should be more than just a few named bosses running the show.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hellions have 3K Kelvin, and Supposedly have a leader, and the Skulls have Brothers that lead it, The Hellion Leader is likely just a Fire/Fire Insert AT here, and the Skull leaders are probably a Dark/Dark corr and a Dark/Dark Brute.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Likely" and "probably" don't really cut it for me. And as for 3k Kelvin, he's more like hired muscle than any sort of leader. Yes, he's an EB, but he doesn't really have much of a Hellion feel to him. And if they supposedly have a leader, I'd like to meet/face him in-game. I like resolution, I want the Hellions and Skulls to get some sort of story similar to the Outcasts with Frostfire. As it is now, both groups just kinda fall beneath your notice at a certain point and you never really deal with them again.
@Johnstone & @Johnstone 2
ediblePoly.com
All my characters
[ QUOTE ]
"Likely" and "probably" don't really cut it for me. And as for 3k Kelvin, he's more like hired muscle than any sort of leader. Yes, he's an EB, but he doesn't really have much of a Hellion feel to him. And if they supposedly have a leader, I'd like to meet/face him in-game.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Hellions *do* have a leader. His name is Nick Pocker, aka Tempter, who runs his gang while being imprisoned in the Zig (see here for more info).
Of course, you never face him in game, except in a couple of MA arcs (one of which, The Unleashing, is mine 
).
[ QUOTE ]
"Likely" and "probably" don't really cut it for me. And as for 3k Kelvin, he's more like hired muscle than any sort of leader. Yes, he's an EB, but he doesn't really have much of a Hellion feel to him. And if they supposedly have a leader, I'd like to meet/face him in-game. I like resolution, I want the Hellions and Skulls to get some sort of story similar to the Outcasts with Frostfire. As it is now, both groups just kinda fall beneath your notice at a certain point and you never really deal with them again.
[/ QUOTE ]
I pretty much agree with you. The Skulls and Hellions - and Outcasts - even though they are low level foes, they could have their stories fleshed out a bit. But I wouldn't want everything to have a resolution; there always needs to be a bit unexplained or unexplored for future development.
The leaders of the Skulls do actually make appearances in some of the canon mishes, for some players. The Skull founders and leaders are the Petrovic brothers, known as Marrow Drinker and Marrow Snap. You wouldn't know this from just playing the game, though. If you came across either of these in a mission the moment was probably lacking in significance as they were likely encountered as normal-looking Skull lieuts at the end of a mish.
The way I used them in my AE arc ("A South Side Story") was open ended (they do a cameo), but they are visually distinct from the rest of the Skulls, obviously more powerful, and they are presented throughout as being the leaders of the Skulls. All of which is different from the way it was delivered to us in the game, but I feel it is actually more consistent with the Skull story and player expectations.
When I get more AE slots, I'd like to get more into the backgrounds of the Hellions and Outcasts. What's interesting is how little development there has been on the stories of these groups compared to how much "mind share" they possess. I mean, pretty much every toon that is rolled up fights Hellions and Outcasts, and everyone knows who these groups are, yet in the game they make up the tiniest percentage of content. If you don't count Billie Heck's bonus arc (which few people know of or play), there are basically no real arcs for Hellions - just a couple of scanner/paper type missions from Azuria and other early contacts. And even though Flux sends you to fight Frostfire, the founder of the Outcasts, there are no real Outcast arcs aside from that one ... and that one features Trolls at least as much as Outcasts.
When you think about how much mileage Marvel got from Hellion-themed characters like the Ghost Rider and Son of Satan, and how much material they've mined from the Outcast-like Xmen (and all their derivatives), you'd think more could be done with these groups.
Game lore basically insinuates that the Hellions were entirely created by Odysseus Hill selling magical artifacts to a minor street gang that eventually became the Hellions. To me that is a fairly lame origin story, and preferably would be only a fraction of the true tale. Like ... maybe that is the way Hill sees it, and that's a valid view from his perspective, but it's not the whole story.
The way I'd handle it is to give the Hellions multiple benefactors (like Hill), a weak distributed leadership that is always seeking alliances and benefactors, and a variety of short-term goals depending upon the particular leader / benefactor. I'd also give the group a better origin, one that is uniquely theirs, and then set up the Warriors / magic item trade as just another alliance made by a faction of the Hellions.
As for the Outcasts, it seems to me there is a lot of room for storytelling there. What are Frostfire's personal goals? How does he recruit and maintain control over the Outcasts? Why are they found in Steel Canyon and the Hollows? How did the Outcasts begin their battles with the Trolls, and was there ever a time when Outcast and Troll worked together? And so on.
There is so much fertile material the devs left untouched or underexploited in their rush to get the game or the issue out the door. And, in my opinion, most of the foes in the game are handled from a game developer's mentality (oh, we need to create another level for our superhero version of Frogger or Ms Pacman) and not from a comic book or storytelling mentality.
[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate how, by player requests, Lord Recluse's tone and demeanor has changed and how Akarist was pulled from the Task Force. But, our notes on the mysterious absence of Axis America and the mysterious ubiquity of the 5th Column continue to go unaddressed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this can be explained very easily. There are lots of parallels between the various Earths. Mostly it's been people, but who about an organization?
We don't have much in teh way of detauls from the public game lore about Reichsman and Axis Earth. It's makes sense that Reichsman was (is) attached to the Axis Earth military. Being who he is, he would be part of an elite unit as the commander no less. And every his elite superpowered lieutents, he would also have elite troops as well. And the name of this Axis America elite unit..the 5th Column. And being an elite unite they would have different/better uniforms, equipment and training. And the setting on Axis American that the player's visit has everything to do with Reichsman, so it would make sense that the bunker and surrounding area would be manned by Reichsman's own personal troops.
The 5th Column on Primal Earth was of Nazi origin, and since Germany conquered the world in the Axis America dimension it's makes sense that the 5th Column would arise in some fashion in the Axis American dimension
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate how, by player requests, Lord Recluse's tone and demeanor has changed and how Akarist was pulled from the Task Force. But, our notes on the mysterious absence of Axis America and the mysterious ubiquity of the 5th Column continue to go unaddressed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this can be explained very easily. There are lots of parallels between the various Earths. Mostly it's been people, but who about an organization?
We don't have much in teh way of detauls from the public game lore about Reichsman and Axis Earth. It's makes sense that Reichsman was (is) attached to the Axis Earth military. Being who he is, he would be part of an elite unit as the commander no less. And every his elite superpowered lieutents, he would also have elite troops as well. And the name of this Axis America elite unit..the 5th Column.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry Fuz, the name of the elite unit is the Amerika Korps. I always got the impression that it was a Nazi version of the Freedom Phalanx, but I'm now noticing that this may not be the case, exactly, based on the two mentions of it (though the second mention suggests to me that it is a Nazi version of the Freedom Phalanx):
[ QUOTE ]
The Reichsman, an alternate version of our world's Statesman, led the Amerika Korps, an elite super powered hero organization that helped preserve Nazi rule over the former United States.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fortunately, the rest of the Amerika Korps did not measure up to the Freedom Phalanx (apparently in his world the Reichsman did not take kindly to potential rivals, and thus their training had been somewhat lax.)
[/ QUOTE ]
The troops in Axis America have always been Axis Americans. They're even still in the game in the MA. Why change that now? Sure, have a bunker with 5th there, saying that they recently established a base there. But the streets should have Axis Americans in it like it always did.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Is Ms. Liberty as huge an egomaniac as she seems? In Gaussian's arc, the longbow you fight state that Ms. Liberty has ordered Vanguard shut down. Does that mean she really thinks she outranks the U.N.?
I know Longbow are supposed to be the good guys (more or less), but that seems like a level of overstepping authority that no actual hero would get away with. Especially since she obviously didn't investigate first since it was only some of Gaussian's men who went rogue.