Why would you skip Eagle Claw on MA? EC, Storm, CK, CAK or something like that?
Nice work BillZ, I know you've been workin on this lil project for awhile now.
Ya know, I'm honestly a bit surprised to find that "Brutes" are, for the most part, on top of the list ahead of Scrappers in damage. With all the hype given to Scrappers and all in damage. However, does this chart include critical chances and fury generation? I'm just wondering.
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Why would you skip Eagle Claw on MA? EC, Storm, CK, CAK or something like that?
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DPA and animation time
Thunder Kick does 54.7 DPA over 1.056 seconds.
Storm Kick does 97.7 DPA over 1.056 seconds.
Crane Kick does 73.0 DPA over 1.848 seconds.
Crippling Axe Kick does 61.1 DPA over 1.848 seconds.
Eagle's Claw does 59.2 DPA over 2.772 seconds.
Eagles Claw does less damage than the other 3 attacks while up nearly 2 attacks worth of animation time. It's better to get in Thunder Kick and Crane Kick than it is to get in Eagle's Claw and nearly as good to get in a Thunder Kick and Crippling Axe Kick as well.
Thunder + Crippling Axe = 66.4 DPA over 2.904 seconds.
Thunder + Crane = 58.8 DPA over 2.904 seconds.
Because Eagle's Claw takes so long and is on such a long recharge, it also means that it will take longer for it to recharge (meaning you can't have the turbo fast attack chains that do loads of damage) and that you will be able to fit in fewer other attacks.
I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.
I was even more surprised to see claws so close to the bottom. OTOH, claws is capable of some mighty fine AoE damage output, so that may make some sense.
The last surprise for me was energy melee. I'm going to have to respec my em/fa now base on this information.
Be well, people of CoH.
Really nice work Bill! Thanks for taking the time to do this, very useful for all of us! 
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I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.
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Sadly enough, I'm not surprised in the least. The devs love Brutes.
Nicely done Bill. 
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.
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Sadly enough, I'm not surprised in the least. The devs love Brutes.
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I was arguing that brutes do similar damage to scrappers while being more survivable in another thread, this info seems to support that idea.
One thing I find odd is that brute dark and fire do more dmg than the scrapper version, but scrapper db does more than brute db, anybody guess why that is?
And if this info is correct in showing that brutes and scrappers are very close in high-end damage output (actually they appear to be superior according to this info), then the age-old argument (a very flawed one, imo) that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS.
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One thing I find odd is that brute dark and fire do more dmg than the scrapper version, but scrapper db does more than brute db, anybody guess why that is?
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Gloom. Brute Dark and Fire use it. Brute DB doesn't.
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that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS
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Yup.
Be well, people of CoH.
I'm thinking I should dust off my old soft-capped Super Reflexes DPS template build, bring it up to I14, and then plug in some of these chains with real world slotting including procs. I'm betting I'll see some similarities, but also some significant differences.
One of many projects I'll probably abandon before it gets very far. I can't seem to stop playing the game long enough to get some serious spreadsheeting in. *sigh*
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.
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Sadly enough, I'm not surprised in the least. The devs love Brutes.
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This has more to do with the fact that global +damage buffs and secondary buffs aren't taken into consideration, such as Shield's AAO. When those are included scrappers will bypass most of the brute numbers because of their higher base damage.
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I'm thinking I should dust off my old soft-capped Super Reflexes DPS template build, bring it up to I14, and then plug in some of these chains with real world slotting including procs. I'm betting I'll see some similarities, but also some significant differences.
One of many projects I'll probably abandon before it gets very far. I can't seem to stop playing the game long enough to get some serious spreadsheeting in. *sigh*
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Very true - I'm thinking some sets proc better than others. Claws is near the bottom of the list here, but we've seen some proc'd up claws pull some top tier AV/pylon times.
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that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS
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Yup.
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Actually, that doesn't really hold. The reason that Brutes are capable of doing so much damage is because they're capable of generating a large amount of +dam thanks to native benefits (Fury) which counteracts their lower +dam modifier and scalar. Rage means less to a Brute because, adding an extra 160% +dam means less when you're already packing 95% from enhancements and 180% from Fury. SS for Scrappers would be utterly borked because, rather than having an increase from 275% to 435%, it would have an increase of 95% exclusively from enhancements to 295% from Rage plus enhancements.
Brutes != Scrappers
Can someone show me how to figure out average DPS gain from the DR debuff procs? My brain has slipped back into lazy mode.
I'm really pondering this FU, Slash, Eviscerate with the two -DR procs.
If I go with the build I'm looking at right now, I'll have 256.7 recharge in Eviscerate which gives me a gapless chain and base 148.6 DPS not including the damage procs.
Be well, people of CoH.
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that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS
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Yup.
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Actually, that doesn't really hold. The reason that Brutes are capable of doing so much damage is because they're capable of generating a large amount of +dam thanks to native benefits (Fury) which counteracts their lower +dam modifier and scalar. Rage means less to a Brute because, adding an extra 160% +dam means less when you're already packing 95% from enhancements and 180% from Fury. SS for Scrappers would be utterly borked because, rather than having an increase from 275% to 435%, it would have an increase of 95% exclusively from enhancements to 295% from Rage plus enhancements.
Brutes != Scrappers
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Actually, Umbral, it would be easy to port the brute SS data over to a scrapper. Doing so now and will report back.
Ooops... scrappers don't get gloom.
Anyone got an SS chain without pool powers?
Be well, people of CoH.
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I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.
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Sadly enough, I'm not surprised in the least. The devs love Brutes.
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This has more to do with the fact that global +damage buffs and secondary buffs aren't taken into consideration, such as Shield's AAO. When those are included scrappers will bypass most of the brute numbers because of their higher base damage.
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Maybe, but that's only if the secondary is shields, lol. What other secondary will provide scrappers with the damage advantage they should have in most cases over brutes? Don't brutes always have the survivability edge?
And I'm thinking this damage mod advantage is being overblown. Wasn't that supposed to apply to DM because of SD? Yet brute DM seems to obliterate scrapper DM. Yes, I realize brutes are using the godly gloom... but even in a shared set where gloom does not come into play, DB, the numbers are almost identical. I would think that since scrappers are pretty much universally less survivable than brutes, then they should pretty much universally deal more damage, and that sure doesn't seem to be the case.
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I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.
I was even more surprised to see claws so close to the bottom. OTOH, claws is capable of some mighty fine AoE damage output, so that may make some sense.
The last surprise for me was energy melee. I'm going to have to respec my em/fa now base on this information.
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"respec" it into a SM/Fire, thats much more fun now. I spent so long on my EM/Fire, got all the accolades I could under lvl 30, great build, tons of fun right up untill ET animation made it flow like treacle. Now its just a shell, stripped of its IOs 
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Ya know, I'm honestly a bit surprised to find that "Brutes" are, for the most part, on top of the list ahead of Scrapper in damage. With all the hype given to Scrappers. However, does this chart include critical chances and fury generation? I'm just wondering.
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Methinks Gloom being *so* good and propping up most of their attack chains has a lot to with with that. 1.76 damage scale with a 1.1 activation?
Shuriken at nearly the same activation time is 0.882, or about half that. Dark Blast while only slightly faster (and probably the same after Arcanatime) is 1.05.
Heck, outside of Storm Kick my Martial Arts *primary* powers aren't that good.
If we took Shuriken and Dark Blast and gave them the same numbers (1.1 activation, 1.76 damage scale, 12 recharge) then you might see a lot of scrapper chains jump near the top.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS
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Yup.
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Actually, that doesn't really hold. The reason that Brutes are capable of doing so much damage is because they're capable of generating a large amount of +dam thanks to native benefits (Fury) which counteracts their lower +dam modifier and scalar. Rage means less to a Brute because, adding an extra 160% +dam means less when you're already packing 95% from enhancements and 180% from Fury. SS for Scrappers would be utterly borked because, rather than having an increase from 275% to 435%, it would have an increase of 95% exclusively from enhancements to 295% from Rage plus enhancements.
Brutes != Scrappers
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Doesn't a 10 target charged SD work pretty similar to the rage buff? Yet, brute DM is pretty far ahead of scrapper DM. Is gloom that good? Take out gloom and where do we stand? The scrapper does a bit more dmg? Isn't that how it should be?
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I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.
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Sadly enough, I'm not surprised in the least. The devs love Brutes.
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This has more to do with the fact that global +damage buffs and secondary buffs aren't taken into consideration, such as Shield's AAO. When those are included scrappers will bypass most of the brute numbers because of their higher base damage.
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Maybe, but that's only if the secondary is shields, lol. What other secondary will provide scrappers with the damage advantage they should have in most cases over brutes?
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fire armour, FE is 25% better buffage
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Can someone show me how to figure out average DPS gain from the DR debuff procs? My brain has slipped back into lazy mode.
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For an approximation, you need to know the number of chances to proc in the chain and the duration of the chain.
% increase in DPS = 20% * (100% - 80% ^ (chances to proc * 10.3 / duration of chain))
So for example, let's say a chain has 2 chances to proc and takes 5.15 seconds.
% increase in DPS
= 20% * (100% - 80% ^ (2 * 10.3 / 5.15))
= 20% * (100% - 80% ^ (2 * 2)
= 20% * (100% - 80% ^ 4)
= 20% * (100% - 40.96%)
= 20% * 59.04%
= 11.808% increase in DPS
The more accurate way is for every attack in the chain, figure out how many chances there were to proc in the previous 10.3 seconds, then do the calculation specifically for that and every other attack in the chain.
(edit: If your chain can take both -resistance procs, calculate the % DPS buff separately for each because they stack.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Can someone show me how to figure out average DPS gain from the DR debuff procs? My brain has slipped back into lazy mode.
I'm really pondering this FU, Slash, Eviscerate with the two -DR procs.
If I go with the build I'm looking at right now, I'll have 256.7 recharge in Eviscerate which gives me a gapless chain and base 148.6 DPS not including the damage procs.
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The simple way is to calculate uptime and then multiply by effectiveness. The simple* formula is this:
(chance to proc) * (magnitude of proc) * (# of proc attempts) * (duration of proc) / (total activation time of attack string) = total contribution
Take this number, add 1, and then multiply by the damage dealt by the attack string. Something to keep in mind is that the real effect will actually be lower. The procs don't stack with themselves (AH does not stack with AH, Glad does not stack with Glad, AH and Glad do stack), so there will actually be a loss in real effect whenever you have a proc go off, but it should be close enough unless there are so many procs that you approach 100% up time.
*I say simple because it doesn't discount redundant procs; I lost the notes I had the intense calculations for AH uptime based on number of procs per 10 second period that Werner and I banged out over the forums last year and I'm too lazy redo them now.
This thread just drives home a slightly OT but annoying aspect of DM (and Soul Mastery, to a degree). Two of DM's hardest hitting "attacks" aren't attacks at all - they're....friggin arm stretches! Melee range "nukes" that don't have an even slightly cool nuke animation. And our coolest looking actual attack, Shadow Maul, is rarely used, and often skipped entirely.
Add Gloom to the mix, clearly deemed to be a necessity for maximum DPS (for a DM Brute, and many others) and your attack chain is nothing more than one lousy gut punch. Granted, Soul Mastery is a pool any AT can choose from, but still.
Are we directing traffic here, or are we melee damage machines?
OK rant over, but I am left wondering something. What would the best attack chain, and DPS, a DM scrap or brute could achieve using nothing but actual physical attacks, including pool powers? Keep Soul Drain in the equation of course.
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I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.
I was even more surprised to see claws so close to the bottom. OTOH, claws is capable of some mighty fine AoE damage output, so that may make some sense.
The last surprise for me was energy melee. I'm going to have to respec my em/fa now base on this information.
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"respec" it into a SM/Fire, thats much more fun now. I spent so long on my EM/Fire, got all the accolades I could under lvl 30, great build, tons of fun right up untill ET animation made it flow like treacle. Now its just a shell, stripped of its IOs
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I'm with you man, lol. I actually like the new ET animation, but the set overall is so slow that it's just agonizing to play. Especially when you fire off an ET on a team and your teamates constantly kill your target before you can hit it, so you waste your 3 second attack, but as a bonus, you still get to eat the self damage...
If you just want the results of this single target attack chain DPS calculations, scroll to the bottom.
DISLAIMER: These attack chains may not be the best out there. There were chosen by general consensus with the help of fellow players.
Methodology:
Numbers derived from Red Tomax's City of Data
Cast times altered using Arcanaville's tick interval modification roundup((base/.132)+1)*.132 and all cast times listed in this post are showing this modified value.
All attack chains set at a total recharge value of 250%. If that level of recharge left gaps in the chain, those gaps were calculated and added to the total chain time.
All attacks were given 33% endurance reduction for EPS calculations.
250% recharge on BuildUp gives it a 37% uptime
90/3.5 = 25.714 I made the assumption that the BU buff started instantly but the recharge didn't start until after the cast time was completed. Cast for BU is 1.32 + 25.714 = 27.034 of which 10 seconds is 36.99%, round up to 37 seconds. Build for brutes is 80%. Therefore, average damage gain from BU for a brute is .37*base*.8
Soul Drain uptime follows the same logic. 2.508 cast; 34.286 recharge; .81535 uptime
Soul Drain checked for 10, 3 and 1 enemies.
Rage was tricky to get the crash value, but I figured it out the same as above. 68.571 rec + 1.32 cast and then rounded up to 70. Uptime 1.717 and a crash every 120 seconds after Rage starts. Turned out to be 30 seconds down out of 270 seconds. So I removed 11% of Superstrength's DPA from the total chain DPA.
Followup and Blinding Feint were double stacked.
The Attack Chains:
BRUTE DARK Midnight Grasp/Gloom/Smite/Siphon Life/Gloom/Smite
BRUTE FIERY Gloom/Incinerate/Greater Fire Sword
BRUTE STONE Seismic Smash/Stone Fist/Gloom/Stone Fist/Heavy Mallet
BRUTE STRENGTH KnockOut Blow/Gloom/Haymaker/Punch/Gloom/Haymaker
BRUTE ENERGY Energy Transfer/Gloom/BoneSmasher/Total Focus
BRUTE ELECTRIC Gloom/Chain Induction/Jacob's Ladder/Charged Brawl
BRUTE DUAL BLADES Blinding Feint/Ablating Strike/Sweeping Strike/Ablating Strike
BRUTE BATTLEAXE Swoop/Gash/Cleave/Chop
BRUTE WARMACE Clobber/Jawbreaker/Shatter
SCRAP DARK Midnight Grasp/Smite/Siphon Life/Smite
SCRAP FIERY Incinerate/Cremate/Greater Fire Sword
SCRAP BROADSWORD Headsplitter/Hack/Disembowel/Hack
SCRAP KATANA Golden Dragonfly/Gambler's Cut/Soaring Dragon/Gambler's Cut
SCRAP MARTIAL ARTS Storm Kick/Crane Kick/Storm Kick/Crippling Axe Kick
SCRAP CLAWS Followup/Slash/Focus/Strike
SCRAP DUAL BLADES Blinding Feint/Ablating Strike/Sweeping Strike/Ablating Strike
SCRAP SPINES Ripper/Dark Blast/Throw Spines/Dark Blast
THE RESULTS from best DPS to worst:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Brute Dark w/ 10 222.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 10 222 4 EPS
Brute Stone 218 5.2 EPS
Brute Fiery 213.2 3.83 EPS
Brute Strength 212.6 4.59 EPS
Brute Energy 207.4 3.84 EPS
Brute Warmace 203.4 4.71 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 3 201.7 4.53 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 1 194.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Fiery 190.3 3.48 EPS
Brute Battleaxe 187.2 4.34 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 3 181 4 EPS
Scrap Dual Blades 169.7 4.42 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 1 169.3 4 EPS
Brute Electric 169 4.69 EPS
Brute Dual Blades 168.3 4.42 EPS
Scrap Katana 168.3 4.16 EPS
Scrap Martial Arts 165.4 4.24 EPS
Scrap Broadsword 154.8 3.85 EPS
Scrap Claws 154.2 3.46 EPS
Scrap Spines 135.9 4.22 EPS
</pre><hr />
If you would like to have the spreadsheet to use for your own purposes or just to check my math, you can have it from here. Warning: Spreadsheet is messy. I'll go in and clean it up later if you want to wait on the download.
Be well, people of CoH.