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One thing I find odd is that brute dark and fire do more dmg than the scrapper version, but scrapper db does more than brute db, anybody guess why that is?
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Gloom. Brute Dark and Fire use it. Brute DB doesn't.
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that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS
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Yup.
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Yeah, my Fortunata took Gloom as well and skipped some of the primary attacks. Gloom is really good once you have good recharge. It's fast and it does good dmg and it's ranged too so it's even better for Brute to have one reliable range attack to kill runners.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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My personal preference would be for Scrappers to simply get a damage increase.
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This. Or some kind of buff, preferably to make them more valuable in teams. And I'm sure now there will be a torrent of 'scrappers are too powerful already', yet scrappers are never a 'needed' at for a tf or sf, they're not the best at to solo large spawns (in fact the supposedly dominant solo at is often outdone by squishy at's...), and yeah, they can solo av's, but other at's that are far better for teams, and are supposed to be weaker soloers in exchange, can also solo them, and in many cases, even faster, lol.
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Werner, even at 314% recharge and doing FU/Slash/Focus repeat, I'm only getting 157DPS.
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Are you sure the correct number of FU stacking is used?
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That's cool, but the problem is that brutes are still out-damaging scrappers all over the place. I guess the solution is to give scrappers more access to plus damage. More fuel for the 'SS for scrappers' campaign!
[/ QUOTE ]The problem with this assessment is that these findings are reflective of a small band of build performance. For instance, Chaos's BS/SD scrapper can reach a DPS of 230+ (about an 80 point difference). Then there's Shred's DM/SD who reached 290+.
Bill's findings should be seen as an assessment of the MINIMUM DPS a particular attack chain can achieve, not its maximum.
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There was another thread recently that showed a much larger 'band' and brutes outdid scrappers far too often imo, especially when you consider the fact they ALWAYS have better damage mitigation.
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One thing I find odd is that brute dark and fire do more dmg than the scrapper version, but scrapper db does more than brute db, anybody guess why that is?
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Gloom. Brute Dark and Fire use it. Brute DB doesn't.
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that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS
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Yup.
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Yeah, my Fortunata took Gloom as well and skipped some of the primary attacks. Gloom is really good once you have good recharge. It's fast and it does good dmg and it's ranged too so it's even better for Brute to have one reliable range attack to kill runners.
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Gloom does not approve of this thread.
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Werner, even at 314% recharge and doing FU/Slash/Focus repeat, I'm only getting 157DPS.
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Are you sure the correct number of FU stacking is used?
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The appropriate stacking should be 3 FU for Focus and Slash and 2 for FU (252.5% uptime).
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I'm not sure what I'd do when Going Rogue comes out and Brutes are available blue side.
That's the only edge scrappers have for me, that I can play them in Heroes instead of Villains.
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Don't discount front loaded damage. Sure, Brutes can reach Scrapper+ levels of damage. But having a large dose of front loaded damage on demand without having to engage warm up enemies is an advantage of scrappers. Many times in longer missions I can use Build Up plus burst to take down a selected mob (Sapper, Communication Officer, Earth Mage) before the rest of the pack turns to attack. Brutes suffer in long sparse maps, Brute suffer while cherry picking targets street sweeping (god I hate the inevitable False Nemesis street sweeping needed for that accolade) and other times when Fury can't reliably build up.
Basically I like being able to land in the middle of a random mob and unload damage immediately and at full effectiveness.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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SuperStrength on scrappers kinda blows using just SS powers.
Chain: KOB/Punch/Jab/Haymaker/Punch/Jab: 9.897 seconds 4.72 EPS
Same uptime on Rage but accounting for base +100% buff instead of 80%
DPS: 185.4 Below Brute Battleaxe and above Scrap Dark w/3
If someone can give me a better chain, even using pool powers if necessary, I'll recalculate it.
EDIT: WRONG. Missed two cells on DPA. Fixed.
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I don't think that chain works with the 250% total recharge. KoB, unlike it's cousins in EM and SM, recharges in 25 seconds. At 250% recharge, that leaves a 10 second gap in between each KoB. (though you might have accounted for that, didn't actually try to reverse engineer your dps number)
This is just a quick chain I put together using 2 pool attacks. There might be a better one, but don't have time to fiddle with it atm.
KoB/Punch/Dark Blast/Haymaker/Punch/Dark Blast/Air Superiority/Haymaker. My "back of the envelop" calcs give that chain 12.804 secs to complete for (edit: unenhanced, no rage, no crits) 11.916DS of damage, or ~.931 DS/sec.
As always, check my math. I'm usually ok at theory but I screw up the actual calcs all the time. 
edit: clarification.
edit2: ignore this post.....just saw in the OP where you use +250%, not total 250% recharge.
BZB, try KOB > Punch > Hurl > Punch > Haymaker for the SS scrapper. I get 207.8 DPS, placing it just behind Brute SS.
This to me shows clearly that Super Strength is overrated, if it wasn't for Gloom it wouldn't be that highly rated at all. It's still a great set since it gets good AE damage as well, but not the end all be all that Brutes make it out to be.
A few things to note for those who thinks Brutes looks too good:
First, Gloom. It takes 3.6 seconds before it finishes ticking, which means that in regular play it often doesn't have time to do it's full damage. I still feel it needs nerfing, but worth pointing out. If you look at the weapon sets you'll see how big a difference that power makes.
Second, Fury. BZB is using 90% fury for his calculations. This is as high as you get it while constantly fighting. The second you stop it'll drop. The average fury is lower than this, how much depends on the player and team.
Third, damage buffs. Any damage buffs you get will be more noticable on a Scrapper, until a bit after the Scrapper has hit the cap. This means things like AAO, Assault, popping an Enrage, Fortitude, etc will make the Scrapper deal more damage.
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I'm not sure what I'd do when Going Rogue comes out and Brutes are available blue side.
That's the only edge scrappers have for me, that I can play them in Heroes instead of Villains.
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Im really hoping this entire discussion fuels proliferation. A buff to scrappers would be welcome, especially on teams as someone stated - like they want to show off and be the shocktroop 
. Raising this damage cap, IMO, seems most appropiate. I have reservations if it will come true.
As a math question: are the formulas for proc's used in attack chains a lot like interest (compounded in Werner's and simple in Umbral's)?
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
I keep seeing this Scrapper VS Brute comparison.
Can we do one Scrapper VS Stalker? The sets are similar. I know Stalker probably loses on AoE but ST wise, Stalker is very competitive?
The question is to include Assassin Strike or not in comparison. Can we try one without and include Stalker's base 10% critical?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Werner, even at 314% recharge and doing FU/Slash/Focus repeat, I'm only getting 157DPS.
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Are you sure the correct number of FU stacking is used?
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No, I'm not sure. As a matter of fact, I know I didn't change it at all from doublestacked. I'll do so later.
Be well, people of CoH.
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And I keep hearing about the damage bonus advantage scrappers have, shouldn't that show up in the DM comparison when SD is charged with 10 targets. I guess gloom is messing up that comparison, maybe bill can fire up the brain for one more comparison and figure out the next best brute chain without gloom, and we can see better what the dmg mod advantage is.
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The advantage is actually showing up. Going from 3 targets to 10 causes a Brute's DPS to jump by 21 points. For a scrapper, this jump is 41 points. This gap will only get larger as more +damage is added to both.
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That's cool, but the problem is that brutes are still out-damaging scrappers all over the place. I guess the solution is to give scrappers more access to plus damage. More fuel for the 'SS for scrappers' campaign!
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isnt it mainly down to the epics? scrappers are LONG overdue for at least one more, they should have access to the tank ones IMO, body mastery/energy mastery is a clone on both ATs after all
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Not imo - look at DB for example, scrappers and brutes are doing pretty much identical damage while brutes have far better durability.
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shhh i want fire blast, fire ball and melt armour 
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I don't think that chain works with the 250% total recharge. KoB, unlike it's cousins in EM and SM, recharges in 25 seconds. At 250% recharge, that leaves a 10 second gap in between each KoB. (though you might have accounted for that, didn't actually try to reverse engineer your dps number)
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You're getting the recharge calculation wrong. 250% +recharge for KOB is 25/(1+2.5) = 7.14 seconds.
The attack string I've been able to come up with (no pools) is KOB>Hay>Punch>Jab>Hay>Punch>repe at. With Scrapper mods (re: 1.5 times as much damage), that's 595.8 unenhanced damage in 10.032 seconds. Assuming 95% +dam slotting and +175% +dam from Rage (175% uptime), that's 270% +dam. Before Rage crashing and Critical, that gives us 1608.66 damage. Including crits (8% crit assumed) gives us 1737.3528 damage. Rage crashing (no damage dealt) occurs for 20 seconds every 140 seconds (recharge time + activation time doubled, just like Billz did). That means that damage is only 6/7ths of that numbers, so we get 1489.16 damage over 10.032 seconds or 148.44 dps.
Now that I've actually crunched the numbers, I've honestly got to say that the only reason that SS is even remotely decent is because Rage is completely borked. Without Rage, that same attack string would only deal 125.07 dps (yes, Rage is a 20% overall increase in damage dealt whenever you're slotted). That just screams to me that SS needs to have some serious Castle review treatment, especially since Rage is pretty far down the list.
Of course, something to think about is that, with more recharge, this build is going to improve tremendously. At 300% +recharge, you're going to be able to remove the last Punch from the attack string which will improve it significantly. Jab and Punch are just... gah... The numbers made me hurt a bit on the inside. The base damage is makes me shudder to think about.
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You're getting the recharge calculation wrong. 250% +recharge for KOB is 25/(1+2.5) = 7.14 seconds.
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From the OP:
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All attack chains set at a total recharge value of 250%.
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I took that to mean 25/(1+1.5)=10. Then I reread and saw that he was using +250% in his BU example, not a total of 250%. Editted my post to clarify my misunderstanding.
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As a math question: are the formulas for proc's used in attack chains a lot like interest (compounded in Werner's and simple in Umbral's)?
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Afaik, unless Werner is using the -res proc formula that we worked out a long time ago, we're using the same formula. Every other proc is simply a flat increase to average damage for a power.
One thing that this thread overall points out that I don't like is that +Recharge plays *way* too much role in DPS. This makes Hasten a must have power. I'd like to see Castle bring some filler attacks up to par so +Recharge was great for saving powe picks but didn't so dramatically affect top DPS of every single set. I would like some builds to be able to skip Hasten without dropping so much in DPS.
I would also like to see the Epic attack powers to be more competitive. If someone is going to wait 41 levels to add an attack to their chain I'd like it to be pretty good. Maybe not Gloom good, but it shouldn't gimp an attack chain.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Yep. Jab is very nearly identical to Boxing. And we all know what place Boxing has in a serious DPS chain. Punch isn't much better, frankly.
They're decent fury builders for Brutes, but that's not even a consideration for Scrappers.
OTOH, a big advantage to Rage (esp. stacked Rage) that hasn't been discussed here is the ToHit buff. Since it's a big ToHit buff which is there 100% of the time, attacks can be slotted with less accuracy to achieve a similar hit rate. Also, KO Blow has a big base accuracy buff.
This allows SS powers to be slotted with relatively more recharge (and/or endredux as needed) than powers in other sets.
Knowing this, I'd be inclined to allow the SS set more +recharge than the others when comparing top-line DPS.
Edit: fixed dumb error.
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They're decent fury builders for Brutes, but that's not even a consideration for Scrappers.
OTOH, a big advantage to Fury (esp. stacked Fury) that hasn't been discussed here is the ToHit buff. Since it's a big ToHit buff which is there 100% of the time, attacks can be slotted with less accuracy to achieve a similar hit rate. Also, KO Blow has a big base accuracy buff.
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I was confused (especially since you had just mentioned Brutes) until I figured out you meant Rage, not Fury.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Bah, editing my post.
<QR>
After clearing up my misunderstanding, try this theoretical scrapper SS chain:
KoB>Haymaker>Dark Blast>Punch>Haymaker>Dark Blast>Repeat
Chain takes 9.636s to complete
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BZB, try KOB > Punch > Hurl > Punch > Haymaker for the SS scrapper. I get 207.8 DPS, placing it just behind Brute SS.
This to me shows clearly that Super Strength is overrated, if it wasn't for Gloom it wouldn't be that highly rated at all. It's still a great set since it gets good AE damage as well, but not the end all be all that Brutes make it out to be.
A few things to note for those who thinks Brutes looks too good:
First, Gloom. It takes 3.6 seconds before it finishes ticking, which means that in regular play it often doesn't have time to do it's full damage. I still feel it needs nerfing, but worth pointing out. If you look at the weapon sets you'll see how big a difference that power makes.
Second, Fury. BZB is using 90% fury for his calculations. This is as high as you get it while constantly fighting. The second you stop it'll drop. The average fury is lower than this, how much depends on the player and team.
Third, damage buffs. Any damage buffs you get will be more noticable on a Scrapper, until a bit after the Scrapper has hit the cap. This means things like AAO, Assault, popping an Enrage, Fortitude, etc will make the Scrapper deal more damage.
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Good post, especially the SS part. Somebody forward this stuff to the devs, lol.
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Boo
Claws still second to last...
Well atleast it's not MA...
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I'm pretty sure we can fix that with more recharge and procs.
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yep...
not really worried about this.
I am however so tempted to respec into a dps build just to see how it fairs with the Shielders time, as well as properly suiting up my Fire/Shielder just for comparison...
Ohhhhh
Great job on this Billz
Edit:
Brutes blue side should be interesting...
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My personal preference would be for Scrappers to simply get a damage increase.
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Mine too and I would wager Brutes resistance caps to be lowered to 85% or even 80%. I don't want this to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I'm really sad that you didn't include Widows in the list. In the original thread I showed that Widows at 250% recharge are capable of 194.5 DPS (without Assault).