Or scrapper's resistance caps to be raised to 80% or even 85% >_>
Nah I want more damage.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
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Or scrapper's resistance caps to be raised to 80% or even 85% >_>
Nah I want more damage.
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Plus, other than Invuln and S/L I don't think any of my builds are even close to the cap.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Or scrapper's resistance caps to be raised to 80% or even 85% >_>
Nah I want more damage.
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Plus, other than Invuln and S/L I don't think any of my builds are even close to the cap.
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Eh, neither are Brutes, but they still have the higher caps. The big point of distinction is that it would allow Scrappers to actual distinguish themselves as being hardier than Blasters, Controllers, Defenders, etc. by some mechanic other than higher hp (and only 30% more at that).
I'll take the damage, please 
EDIT: This comment was inteneded as tongue and cheek and not a serious endorsement for a buff
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
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Or scrapper's resistance caps to be raised to 80% or even 85% >_>
Nah I want more damage.
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Plus, other than Invuln and S/L I don't think any of my builds are even close to the cap.
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Eh, neither are Brutes, but they still have the higher caps. The big point of distinction is that it would allow Scrappers to actual distinguish themselves as being hardier than Blasters, Controllers, Defenders, etc. by some mechanic other than higher hp (and only 30% more at that).
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Fiery Aura - Fire Resistance
Electric Armor - Energy Resistance
Electric Armor - Power Surge (all but Tox/Psi)
Invuln - Unstoppable (all but Psi)
WP - Can hit >75% s/l res with Tough + SoW
[edit: Not to be the party pooper, but honestly, I don't see Scrappers needing more damage.]
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Werner, even at 314% recharge and doing FU/Slash/Focus repeat, I'm only getting 157DPS.
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Are you sure the correct number of FU stacking is used?
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No, I'm not sure. As a matter of fact, I know I didn't change it at all from doublestacked. I'll do so later.
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I need to get my lazy bum to work on the chain visualizer again - ArcanaTime and more sets/attacks.
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[edit: Not to be the party pooper, but honestly, I don't see Scrappers needing more damage.]
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Unless I misunderstood the discussion, it's not so much about scrappers needing damage, but rather striking a balance between brutes and scrappers. I have no opinion as to whether such a balance is needed, but given the choice between increased resistances and increased damage, damage seems like the only likely alternative. Increases in resistance would place us back into the category of stepping on Tankers toes.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
I think a few guns are being jumped here.
As noted, a lot of the brute chains are being ridiculously buffed by ONE outstanding power: Gloom
If we take gloom out of the equation and replace it with, say dark blast, guess what's going to happen to those DPS numbers?
Better than guess, tonight/tomorrow I'll do just that. While I realize that my actions here may bring about a nerf to gloom and thus bring the ire of many a player upon my head, we all know that Castle WILL nerf a single power to bring about balance prior to giving a wholesale damage buff to scrappers whom, I agree, hardly need such a buff.
That said, I am NOT against equalizing scrapper/brute mitigation caps. I've never thought that brutes deserved tanker caps. I've long thought that scrappers should have higher caps than blasters/controllers/etc.
My wish is 80% for brutes and scrappers. I find that fair. Or put them both at 75% and lower the the squishies to 60%.
Be well, people of CoH.
After looking through this whole thread, I would have to agree with Sarrate that the analysis is probably overrated. This would really only work for totally tricked out builds that could be impractical for most of the gameplay and players here. Yes, for some of the tougher challenges like AV hunting and Pylon soloing these comparisons could be nice in an academic discussion, but the conditions of these numbers seem to be pretty exclusive from most of the game.
The +250% recharge, though definitely possible for some builds, is still pretty high for anything without using IO set bonuses or external buffs. Assuming 90% recharge enhanced for each power, Hasten tacked on, and maybe another buff like Quickness from /SR, you are still looking at 70-90% more global recharge. That seems to be out of reach except for the most dedicated builds.
Also assuming Fury at 90% is pretty high standard, which is definitely not the practice for Brutes at all times. Yes, I know it's probably not that difficult to generate Fury, but general gameplay seems to see Fury peak at 70-80% as the highest attained for most of the time, with the average being lower than that. Getting even higher Fury then involves getting specific conditions which could also put the Brute's survival at risk, and that does take some time to do.
I seriously don't think the developers will take these numbers as an indication of any need of balance between sets or ATs (though I'm not saying there is or there isn't a need for it in any case). That +250% recharge is figured into these calculations puts them way beyond the SO enhancement values that most of the games seems to be revolved around.
I have to disagree with the thought that 90% fury isn't easily attainable. Against hard targets boss, eb, av, pylon it's a given.
Solo and sprinting between spawns to keep downtime to a minimum, I'll fluctuate between 70 and 90, only dipping to 70 right before connecting with the next spawn.
On the topic of recharge, I can not agree enough. That is only attainable at the highest levels of IO slotting backed by hasten. However, we could also use the same methodology to find chains utilizing no more than the recharge provided by a single level 50 basic IO.
Those chains won't be efficient but they do exist, because we all use them as climb up from one to 50. "Is an attack ready to fire off? Good! Use it!" Yall know the drill.
Be well, people of CoH.
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[edit: Not to be the party pooper, but honestly, I don't see Scrappers needing more damage.]
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Unless I misunderstood the discussion, it's not so much about scrappers needing damage, but rather striking a balance between brutes and scrappers. I have no opinion as to whether such a balance is needed, but given the choice between increased resistances and increased damage, damage seems like the only likely alternative. Increases in resistance would place us back into the category of stepping on Tankers toes.
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I don't think this analysis is enough to conclude that Brutes or Scrappers necessarily need a change. As I said before, this is very narrow in scope, and not really an accurate depiction of how the vast majority of the game is played (ie: in missions where AoEs are incredibly important). These chains are very gimmicky and good at one thing: single hard targets. (I don't think bosses you'd fight in normal gameplay last long enough to outweigh other build compromises necessary to create these ST monsters.)
Heck, if went straight off these charts, one could conclude Spines needs a buff... 
It's interesting to point out a major outlier (Gloom), but not the Brute / Scrapper balance as a whole. (I've never used Gloom, but it's possible the rooted time is longer than the activation time, meaning it's not as strong as this analysis concludes. It'd likely take demo analysis to know for sure.)
[edit: Also, as noted, Gloom is a dot, and pure dot attacks do tend to get some discounts. Take a look at Incinerate's dmg/rech/end ratio - it's discounted.]
For a moment, let's assume that Scrappers do under perform Brutes... I don't seriously think that Scrappers are the ones that would need the upward tuning - they already perform admirably in both SOs and IOs. If there is a discrepancy, then I think it'd be Brutes that should be taken down a peg, not Scrappers buffed up. (Btw, it may be entirely possible for people to keep Fury between 70%-90%... but it's also possible that more people cannot. Just food for thought.)
[edit: For the record, I think Brute performance is more variable than a Scrapper, and as such, it's possible for certain combos / playstyles to consistently underperform Scrappers while others always overperform. That's another danger I could see in trying to balance Brutes.]
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I think a few guns are being jumped here.
As noted, a lot of the brute chains are being ridiculously buffed by ONE outstanding power: Gloom
If we take gloom out of the equation and replace it with, say dark blast, guess what's going to happen to those DPS numbers?
Better than guess, tonight/tomorrow I'll do just that. While I realize that my actions here may bring about a nerf to gloom and thus bring the ire of many a player upon my head, we all know that Castle WILL nerf a single power to bring about balance prior to giving a wholesale damage buff to scrappers whom, I agree, hardly need such a buff.
That said, I am NOT against equalizing scrapper/brute mitigation caps. I've never thought that brutes deserved tanker caps. I've long thought that scrappers should have higher caps than blasters/controllers/etc.
My wish is 80% for brutes and scrappers. I find that fair. Or put them both at 75% and lower the the squishies to 60%.
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Gloom won't get nerf. It doesn't do all its damage immediately. I think it's fine the way it is. It takes about 2-3s to complete the whole damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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For my 2 inf, I think that these super charged ST attack chains are overrated for the majority of the game. It's great for big game hunting (AVs, Pylons, +4 Rikti Bosses), but that's about it. For the other 90% of the game, I'd rather have a more standard build with more effective AoEs and more utility/fun powers. I can't see myself ever making an AV soloer for that reason - far too specialized for my tastes. (Besides, I'd rather have more fluidity / choices in combat than just press the same 4 keys in the same order over and over.)
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This.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I have to disagree with the thought that 90% fury isn't easily attainable. Against hard targets boss, eb, av, pylon it's a given.
Solo and sprinting between spawns to keep downtime to a minimum, I'll fluctuate between 70 and 90, only dipping to 70 right before connecting with the next spawn.
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Okay, I'll concede that 90% Fury may not be all that difficult attain, particularly if you are going against some stacked mobs. But which standard are we using for attaining that number? Are we using the general run-of-the-mill soloing experience, or are we using "Okay, let me solo this 8-man Unyielding/Invincible spawn!" experience?
If the average Fury were set to around 70-80% then I think the numbers would be more meaningful (outside of the +250% recharge, of course). This is not to say the number work is totally useless. In fact, it seems to demonstrate just what are the upper limits of the various builds and ATs compared.
Rather than use the numbers as a justification for any kind of expected change in anything, I see them more as "Hey, I want to try out that build for a ride!" sentiment, to see how certain combinations can work when you really give it the work-through.
I don't think there needs to be any manner of buff, I don't see a disparity between brute and scrapper power from this.
keep in mind that in a buff heavy environment, those scrapper chains are going to get a hell of a lot more from every point of +damage than their counterparts.
Do Brutes have a higher + damage cap? sure, but they need all of it just to equal what one fulcrum shift can do for a scrapper.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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After looking through this whole thread, I would have to agree with Sarrate that the analysis is probably overrated. This would really only work for totally tricked out builds that could be impractical for most of the gameplay and players here. Yes, for some of the tougher challenges like AV hunting and Pylon soloing these comparisons could be nice in an academic discussion, but the conditions of these numbers seem to be pretty exclusive from most of the game.
The +250% recharge, though definitely possible for some builds, is still pretty high for anything without using IO set bonuses or external buffs. Assuming 90% recharge enhanced for each power, Hasten tacked on, and maybe another buff like Quickness from /SR, you are still looking at 70-90% more global recharge. That seems to be out of reach except for the most dedicated builds.
Also assuming Fury at 90% is pretty high standard, which is definitely not the practice for Brutes at all times. Yes, I know it's probably not that difficult to generate Fury, but general gameplay seems to see Fury peak at 70-80% as the highest attained for most of the time, with the average being lower than that. Getting even higher Fury then involves getting specific conditions which could also put the Brute's survival at risk, and that does take some time to do.
I seriously don't think the developers will take these numbers as an indication of any need of balance between sets or ATs (though I'm not saying there is or there isn't a need for it in any case). That +250% recharge is figured into these calculations puts them way beyond the SO enhancement values that most of the games seems to be revolved around.
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I think the results basically confirm my belief that when under most optimal situation, Brute has the GREATEST potential, which is pretty much what the AT is designed for.
I've been playing this game a lot but I don't have any lvl 50 Brute. My highest is only lvl 42 Dark/Elec Brute. Why? Because I don't like keeping Fury. I like to chat, make jokes and team a lot. I find that when I play Brute, I need to focus on too much like "go, go, go!!". And I hate losing Fury when it happens so naturally I find Brute AT not as fun.
I've been playing Stalker a lot and I find Stalker's damage is a lot higher when I want it. I assume Stalker and Scrapper are pretty similar when it comes to initial burst damage.
I am not surprised Brute is a bit higher than Scrapper but I highly doubt you can keep fury high all the time. There's bound to be "down-time" during mish.
I am surprised that War Mace still ranks that low even after all the buffs. Imagine how bad it was before?? LOL 
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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After looking through this whole thread, I would have to agree with Sarrate that the analysis is probably overrated. This would really only work for totally tricked out builds that could be impractical for most of the gameplay and players here. Yes, for some of the tougher challenges like AV hunting and Pylon soloing these comparisons could be nice in an academic discussion, but the conditions of these numbers seem to be pretty exclusive from most of the game.
The +250% recharge, though definitely possible for some builds, is still pretty high for anything without using IO set bonuses or external buffs. Assuming 90% recharge enhanced for each power, Hasten tacked on, and maybe another buff like Quickness from /SR, you are still looking at 70-90% more global recharge. That seems to be out of reach except for the most dedicated builds.
Also assuming Fury at 90% is pretty high standard, which is definitely not the practice for Brutes at all times. Yes, I know it's probably not that difficult to generate Fury, but general gameplay seems to see Fury peak at 70-80% as the highest attained for most of the time, with the average being lower than that. Getting even higher Fury then involves getting specific conditions which could also put the Brute's survival at risk, and that does take some time to do.
I seriously don't think the developers will take these numbers as an indication of any need of balance between sets or ATs (though I'm not saying there is or there isn't a need for it in any case). That +250% recharge is figured into these calculations puts them way beyond the SO enhancement values that most of the games seems to be revolved around.
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I think the results basically confirm my belief that when under most optimal situation, Brute has the GREATEST potential, which is pretty much what the AT is designed for.
I've been playing this game a lot but I don't have any lvl 50 Brute. My highest is only lvl 42 Dark/Elec Brute. Why? Because I don't like keeping Fury. I like to chat, make jokes and team a lot. I find that when I play Brute, I need to focus on too much like "go, go, go!!". And I hate losing Fury when it happens so naturally I find Brute AT not as fun.
I've been playing Stalker a lot and I find Stalker's damage is a lot higher when I want it. I assume Stalker and Scrapper are pretty similar when it comes to initial burst damage.
I am not surprised Brute is a bit higher than Scrapper but I highly doubt you can keep fury high all the time. There's bound to be "down-time" during mish.
I am surprised that War Mace still ranks that low even after all the buffs. Imagine how bad it was before?? LOL
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Warmace is low? LOL, it's ahead of every single scrapper set except dark melee with SD saturated with 10 targets...
And why should a brute have greater damage 'potential' than a scrapper when the brute always has better damage mitigation?
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Rather than use the numbers as a justification for any kind of expected change in anything, I see them more as "Hey, I want to try out that build for a ride!" sentiment, to see how certain combinations can work when you really give it the work-through.
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Which was actually my goal. This whole thing started because I was looking for how to best optimize my claws/sr scrapper and em/fa brute. Then I thought about how much damage the fm/sd combo must push out and wanted to know how best to configure that.
This whole exercise just steamrolled from there.
I had no intentions of this becoming a "scrappers need buffed" "brutes need nerfed" "gloom is of the devil" thread.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I don't think there needs to be any manner of buff, I don't see a disparity between brute and scrapper power from this.
keep in mind that in a buff heavy environment, those scrapper chains are going to get a hell of a lot more from every point of +damage than their counterparts.
Do Brutes have a higher + damage cap? sure, but they need all of it just to equal what one fulcrum shift can do for a scrapper.
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AT's should not be balanced by how well they are buffed by other outside at's, especially when looking at only a few specific powers like fulcrum shift. If we do that, granite armor is way too powerful because kins let them move quickly, or buffed blasters are too powerful because they have too much damage mitigation for the ranged damage they put out.
From the info I've seen, brutes eclipse scrapper dmg far too often considering the fact they always have better dmg mitigation. And top-end, scrappers should have the dmg advantage in most cases because brutes clearly have dmg mitigation advantage at the top end, and this info clearly demonstrates that brutes have dmg dealing and dmg mitigation superiority on the top end. That's clearly imbalanced, and it's even less defensible when you consider the two at's share many of the same powersets.
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Rather than use the numbers as a justification for any kind of expected change in anything, I see them more as "Hey, I want to try out that build for a ride!" sentiment, to see how certain combinations can work when you really give it the work-through.
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Which was actually my goal. This whole thing started because I was looking for how to best optimize my claws/sr scrapper and em/fa brute. Then I thought about how much damage the fm/sd combo must push out and wanted to know how best to configure that.
This whole exercise just steamrolled from there.
I had no intentions of this becoming a "scrappers need buffed" "brutes need nerfed" "gloom is of the devil" thread.
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You are innocent, blame me for the comparison, I'll be the bad guy, lol. Sorry, but when I see that kind of disparity, I think it needs to be pointed out, especially if they plan on mixing blue and redside.
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Yeah. Y'all crunched numbers, and I skimmed it. I haven't cared much about the comparison in the past because I prefer blue side and don't PvP. But when Brutes come blue side, I'm going to care, and so should the devs.
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When Brutes come "blueside" in Rogue, chances are you will NOT see the damage disparity that you see right now when they're villain side.
Why?
Because the chances of Brutes being able to "keep" their Patron Power Pool attack Gloom is very very slim imho. They'll most likely have to respec into Ancillary Power Pools upon faction switch and pick up Dark Blast, which will drop their damage averages substantially enough to say: Blueside: Scrappers > Brutes in damage.
As far as CoV goes though, Brutes are there to be the "Scrapper" of the redside, so I don't have a problem at all with them having higher damage averages. Furthermore, Scrappers really do benifit alot more from +dmg buffs, and Scrapper damage starts right out the gate, there's no "building up" needed, like it is with Brutes. In my opinion, that is kinda the "balance" to their damage output. Sure, with particular sets and/or tons of IO's, you can reduce the amount of time it takes most Brutes to recover between spawns, but the dev's have always stated that they would never balance this game around IO useage; so that's an acceptable poison. Also, don't forget Scrapper crits allow us to 1-shot things from time-to-time which helps our killing pace on teams.
War Mace ranks low because it has redraw and thus can't utilize Gloom. Remove Gloom from the chains and it'll be a top contender, with great AE damage to boot.
They really need to fix the Epic powers for Villains. Check out Dark Blast for Stalkers. It's got better DPA than Energy Transfer! Either that power is horrendously broken or RedTomax has that powers info wrong. The optimal DM chain I found used DB as every other attack.
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Because the chances of Brutes being able to "keep" their Patron Power Pool attack Gloom is very very slim imho. They'll most likely have to respec into Ancillary Power Pools upon faction switch and pick up Dark Blast, which will drop their damage averages substantially enough to say: Blueside: Scrappers > Brutes in damage.
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How the heck do you think that would work? Epic power pools are AT based. While Brutes could easily get Scrapper APPs, other ATs will not find it as easy. They might make something entirely new, but I highly doubt it.
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Because the chances of Brutes being able to "keep" their Patron Power Pool attack Gloom is very very slim imho. They'll most likely have to respec into Ancillary Power Pools upon faction switch and pick up Dark Blast, which will drop their damage averages substantially enough to say: Blueside: Scrappers > Brutes in damage.
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How the heck do you think that would work? Epic power pools are AT based. While Brutes could easily get Scrapper APPs, other ATs will not find it as easy. They might make something entirely new, but I highly doubt it.
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I think it's VERY possible. Rogue isn't some "small" expansion, it's quite large. If the dev's wanted to "keep things real" and as close to making sense as possible, then keeping your villain "Patron Powers" when you switched to Heroside just wouldn't make sense at all. If you're a Hero, you shouldn't be serving a VILLAIN patron.
Anythings possible at this point, sure, however I could easily see the Dev's having Villains (and Heroes) respec their lvl 40+ Epic powers and replacing them with new faction based powers, even if they are entirely new "pools" for each AT.
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My personal preference would be for Scrappers to simply get a damage increase.
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Mine too and I would wager Brutes resistance caps to be lowered to 85% or even 80%. I don't want this to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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Eh, I doubt it'll happen. I've still been pushing for Scrappers (and Stalkers) to get an increase to their resistance cap (to 80-85%) to differentiate them from the +res cap of every other AT out there. It really butters by biscuit that the VEATs have an 85% res cap and Scrappers don't even though Scrappers are supposed to be tougher.