City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

The Results are in...

Ang_Rui_Shen

By Ang_Rui_Shen,
Posted on: 2009-05-21 06:48 in Scrappers

 

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I would think that since scrappers are pretty much universally less survivable than brutes, then they should pretty much universally deal more damage, and that sure doesn't seem to be the case.

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I'll agree with your conclusion based on what I've heard so far (haven't done any math myself). However, sustained single target DPS at +250% recharge and without procs isn't representative of the game as a whole. These DPS numbers aren't anything the devs should be balancing around.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

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I would think that since scrappers are pretty much universally less survivable than brutes, then they should pretty much universally deal more damage, and that sure doesn't seem to be the case.

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I'll agree with your conclusion based on what I've heard so far (haven't done any math myself). However, sustained single target DPS at 250% recharge and without procs isn't representative of the game as a whole. These DPS numbers aren't anything the devs should be balancing around.

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True, and as I've stated many times, I'm not the mathematician many of you guys seem to be, lol. But from playing many brutes and scrappers, I've felt like I was doing a lot more damage overall on my brutes than on my scrappers, while being more survivable, while leveling up on just IO's. And I've seen lots of evidence in these forums beyond this post that seem to support this.

And I keep hearing about the damage bonus advantage scrappers have, shouldn't that show up in the DM comparison when SD is charged with 10 targets. I guess gloom is messing up that comparison, maybe bill can fire up the brain for one more comparison and figure out the next best brute chain without gloom, and we can see better what the dmg mod advantage is.

 

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I only have one Brute at 50, and while I know anecdote isn't evidence, I had the same impression as you. It felt like I had more damage and was more survivable than my scrappers.

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Didn't we crunch some numbers in another thread that showed that in non-top end builds and while on optimal teams, that Brutes won out over Scrappers on damage on a pure scalar basis? There was a rather large sweet spot where Scrappers won, but it was only really in the top end IO build range IIRC.

It's nice to see that there are people agreeing with what I've been saying for more than 2 years now though.

 

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And I keep hearing about the damage bonus advantage scrappers have, shouldn't that show up in the DM comparison when SD is charged with 10 targets. I guess gloom is messing up that comparison, maybe bill can fire up the brain for one more comparison and figure out the next best brute chain without gloom, and we can see better what the dmg mod advantage is.

[/ QUOTE ]The advantage is actually showing up. Going from 3 targets to 10 causes a Brute's DPS to jump by 21 points. For a scrapper, this jump is 41 points. This gap will only get larger as more +damage is added to both.


One interesting thing I noticed is that Gloom's high DPA is almost required for Brutes to be on par with Scrapper DPS. I guess that's one reason to keep the power as-is.

 

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I only have one Brute at 50, and while I know anecdote isn't evidence, I had the same impression as you. It felt like I had more damage and was more survivable than my scrappers.

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Didn't we crunch some numbers in another thread that showed that in non-top end builds and while on optimal teams, that Brutes won out over Scrappers on damage on a pure scalar basis? There was a rather large sweet spot where Scrappers won, but it was only really in the top end IO build range IIRC.

It's nice to see that there are people agreeing with what I've been saying for more than 2 years now though.

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Yeah, that's actually one of the other threads of evidence I was referring to, lol. I love brutes, but it seems odd that they can out-damage scrappers in a lot of situations, while always out-surviving them.

 

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Boo

Claws still second to last...
Well atleast it's not MA...

 

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And I keep hearing about the damage bonus advantage scrappers have, shouldn't that show up in the DM comparison when SD is charged with 10 targets. I guess gloom is messing up that comparison, maybe bill can fire up the brain for one more comparison and figure out the next best brute chain without gloom, and we can see better what the dmg mod advantage is.

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The advantage is actually showing up. Going from 3 targets to 10 causes a Brute's DPS to jump by 21 points. For a scrapper, this jump is 41 points. This gap will only get larger as more +damage is added to both.

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That's cool, but the problem is that brutes are still out-damaging scrappers all over the place. I guess the solution is to give scrappers more access to plus damage. More fuel for the 'SS for scrappers' campaign!

 

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SuperStrength on scrappers kinda blows using just SS powers.

Chain: KOB/Punch/Jab/Haymaker/Punch/Jab: 9.897 seconds 4.72 EPS
Same uptime on Rage but accounting for base +100% buff instead of 80%

DPS: 185.4 Below Brute Battleaxe and above Scrap Dark w/3

If someone can give me a better chain, even using pool powers if necessary, I'll recalculate it.

EDIT: WRONG. Missed two cells on DPA. Fixed.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

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Boo

Claws still second to last...
Well atleast it's not MA...

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Yeah, but we've seen what a properly IO'd up claws can do, right, lol?

Plus it's gotta be just under spines for best in aoe abilities.

 

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Welll I love and hate this little project.....

The love I can see what good and what not so good.

The Bad my 2 fav sets are near the bottom spines and MA.

Oh well I love them and wont change a thing about loving them.

 

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Boo

Claws still second to last...
Well atleast it's not MA...

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I'm pretty sure we can fix that with more recharge and procs.

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More recharge I don't think will help.

There was very little difference between FU/Slash/Focus/Strike, FU/Slash/Eviscerate and the long FU/Sl/F/Sl/FU/F/Sl/F chains.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

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Some things to keep in mind when using Bill's numbers:

<ul type="square">[*] While the math seems is sound (haven't gone over it myself to double check), keep in mind it's all averages of sustained combat vs a single target. It doesn't factor in things like AoE potential nor the granular effects of things like BU or missing.[*] This is approaching the tip top damage output possible for these secondaries. Not all secondaries can even attain this level of +recharge without sacrificing other important things.[*] It assumes that the Brute has 90% Fury. &lt;Insert generic Fury debate here.&gt;[*] All the non-weapon Brutes use Gloom. I suspect they'd deal substantially less damage without it. (In other words, it's not that Brutes or their mechanic is superior, they simply get access to a superior attack.)[*] Speaking of Gloom, most of the Brutes must be lvl41 or their chains break.[*] It doesn't state whether a chain is sustainable or not. Take a long hard look at Stone Melee - its end drain is a whooping 5.2 eps (granted could be lower with more end reduc), if you're not Elec or EA that's impossible to sustain. (Of course, any Scrapper can get Conserve Power, a huge boon in this category.)[/list]
For my 2 inf, I think that these super charged ST attack chains are overrated for the majority of the game. It's great for big game hunting (AVs, Pylons, +4 Rikti Bosses), but that's about it. For the other 90% of the game, I'd rather have a more standard build with more effective AoEs and more utility/fun powers. I can't see myself ever making an AV soloer for that reason - far too specialized for my tastes. (Besides, I'd rather have more fluidity / choices in combat than just press the same 4 keys in the same order over and over.)

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Anyone got an SS chain without pool powers?

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Bill: If you're going to allow GLOOM for Brutes, then there is no reason to exclude pools from Scrappers.

 

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Werner, even at 314% recharge and doing FU/Slash/Focus repeat, I'm only getting 157DPS.

Sarrate, I have no argument with anything you stated.

And the EPS I listed for Scrapper Super Strength is wrong.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

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Yeah. Y'all crunched numbers, and I skimmed it. I haven't cared much about the comparison in the past because I prefer blue side and don't PvP. But when Brutes come blue side, I'm going to care, and so should the devs.

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Redside v. Blueside AT comparison (which is a big interest of mine from a number crunching standpoint) has consistently shown a Redside advantage in pretty much every analysis I've done. The only AT that really did largely worse was the non-permadom Dominator, which, with the I15 Dom changes, is going to completely reverse that. The big thing that bothers me is that the redside AT are simply designed better and, thanks to that, get better numbers and operate better with intelligent players (which are painfully rare redside thanks to the kind of player that generally tends to flock to play the bad guys).

It doesn't help that the CoV developers refused to assign decent and consistent AT equivalences which would have made balance a much easier prospect.

I've seen some claims that Masterminds are the redside Tankers. This was only stated by the devs early in CoV's development and was abandoned partway through the design thanks to an inability to find a decent native method to control aggro. They've moved away significantly from that designed role in the intervening time period.

The worst culprit of this, though, is the Brute. They've been said to be by different devs at the same time the Tankers of CoV and the Scrappers of CoV. This is why they've got the survivability and aggro chops to Tank in a group (when they get buffs to overcome their lower base mitigation and take advantage of their higher caps) while simultaneously being capable of dealing damage equal to or better than a Scrapper (because, supposedly, the huge amounts of +dam required to beat out Scrappers is hard to get). They got buffed up to perform both roles without ever having to pay for it. Wonderful stuff there. Absolutely bloody wonderful balancing stuff.

 

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And I keep hearing about the damage bonus advantage scrappers have, shouldn't that show up in the DM comparison when SD is charged with 10 targets. I guess gloom is messing up that comparison, maybe bill can fire up the brain for one more comparison and figure out the next best brute chain without gloom, and we can see better what the dmg mod advantage is.

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The advantage is actually showing up. Going from 3 targets to 10 causes a Brute's DPS to jump by 21 points. For a scrapper, this jump is 41 points. This gap will only get larger as more +damage is added to both.

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That's cool, but the problem is that brutes are still out-damaging scrappers all over the place. I guess the solution is to give scrappers more access to plus damage. More fuel for the 'SS for scrappers' campaign!

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isnt it mainly down to the epics? scrappers are LONG overdue for at least one more, they should have access to the tank ones IMO, body mastery/energy mastery is a clone on both ATs after all

 

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Interesting list, I have always felt like my brutes did more damage than my scrappers as well. I have plenty of melee 50's but my first brute(SS/EA) felt weak compared to my bs/regen or dm/regen scrappers, probably cause of the sets and this was before IO's

I have a fire/wp brute at 44 and it feels like he is way more powerful than any of my other melee characters. I think that because brutes are more sturdy that fury builds faster than crits happen so it looks like more. Maybe with crits factored in it wins in the end, but for attack chains fury is better.


This list is with 250% recharge on the chains and not many people have that much recharge.

�The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."

@Mr. Magnifico

 

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Umbral, I would not bat an eye if brute mitigation caps were made identical to scrappers. I would, however, throw a rod if the devs decided to tone down fury so that brute damage was closer to tanker damage than scrapper damage.

And I won't be surprised to see a Gloom nerf in the near future.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

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I would also add that my brute is pretty well slotted with IO's. Probably one of my best characters when it comes to IO's.

�The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."

@Mr. Magnifico

 

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And I keep hearing about the damage bonus advantage scrappers have, shouldn't that show up in the DM comparison when SD is charged with 10 targets. I guess gloom is messing up that comparison, maybe bill can fire up the brain for one more comparison and figure out the next best brute chain without gloom, and we can see better what the dmg mod advantage is.

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The advantage is actually showing up. Going from 3 targets to 10 causes a Brute's DPS to jump by 21 points. For a scrapper, this jump is 41 points. This gap will only get larger as more +damage is added to both.

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That's cool, but the problem is that brutes are still out-damaging scrappers all over the place. I guess the solution is to give scrappers more access to plus damage. More fuel for the 'SS for scrappers' campaign!

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isnt it mainly down to the epics? scrappers are LONG overdue for at least one more, they should have access to the tank ones IMO, body mastery/energy mastery is a clone on both ATs after all

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Not imo - look at DB for example, scrappers and brutes are doing pretty much identical damage while brutes have far better durability.

 

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That's cool, but the problem is that brutes are still out-damaging scrappers all over the place. I guess the solution is to give scrappers more access to plus damage. More fuel for the 'SS for scrappers' campaign!

[/ QUOTE ]The problem with this assessment is that these findings are reflective of a small band of build performance. For instance, Chaos's BS/SD scrapper can reach a DPS of 230+ (about an 80 point difference). Then there's Shred's DM/SD who reached 290+.

Bill's findings should be seen as an assessment of the MINIMUM DPS a particular attack chain can achieve, not its maximum.

 

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I'm not sure what I'd do when Going Rogue comes out and Brutes are available blue side.

That's the only edge scrappers have for me, that I can play them in Heroes instead of Villains.

@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.

 

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Umbral, I would not bat an eye if brute mitigation caps were made identical to scrappers. I would, however, throw a rod if the devs decided to tone down fury so that brute damage was closer to tanker damage than scrapper damage.

And I won't be surprised to see a Gloom nerf in the near future.

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Personally, I think one or the other should happen. My personal preference would be for Scrappers to simply get a damage increase. Increase the Scrapper base scalar to 1.175 (that's a 5% increase from a scalar perspective!) and increase their damage cap to +450%. Of course, this goes hand in hand with increasing Blasters' damage cap to +450% to account for Defiance doing nothing in +dam situations. (Stalkers get to whine, they're still top when you consider their absurd crit capabilities on a large team and when initiating a fight, plus they've got better control capabilities than a Scrapper thanks to Assassin's strike's fear mechanic)

The logic behind both of these is pretty simple and follows the Brute balance mechanic: the +dam cap should be directly related to the inherent and +dam capability of an AT.

Of course, if you don't want to increase the damage dealing capabilities of Blasters and Scrappers, you could just drop the Brute +dam cap to +650% rather than +750% so that they'll never be able to deal more damage than an equally buffed Scrapper just like Scrappers can never be as survivable as a equally buffed Brute.