An Open Letter to the CoH Community
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-05-16 21:32 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Only if they ignore the multiple times these devs have said "Hey, that's a good idea, and we'd love to be able to implement it, but it would require a complete engine overhaul."
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Maybe when those things started to pile up they should have DONE an engine overhaul A YEAR AND A HALF AGO instead of spending that time screwing around pushing out booster packs and trying to chase rainbows like thinking in-game advertising would catch on in a five year old stale title with a shrinking audience.
[/ QUOTE ]A year and a half ago when they had fewer devs on board than it takes people to run a [censored] McDonald's?
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Not exactly the tone, I was looking for. But Arctic pretty much summed up that point Johnny.
A compleate overhaul of the the Game's graphics engine would of required more than just the staff that was handling COX at the time of the IP buyout.
Just for debate, I took a look at the Cryptic Staff listing at the back of the CoV Manual. There some 50+ people split between 7 Departments:
<ul type="square">
Management
Design
Programming
Art
Sound & Music
Design Support
Production[/list]
Now the lion's share were split between Art, Design, and Programming. At a point after CoV's release, that 50+ group got trimmed down to 15 people split among those same 7 Departments. I would guess several of those were doing mulitable jobs as well. There is no frigging way that a overhaul could of been reasonably done. Even after the IP buyout, getting new hires in and up to speed on what is currently used would take some time.
Now Paragon Studios is about at the same staff strength as when CoV was released. And guess what, there's work on a new CoV-sized release with game engine changes. Things that couldn't of been really feasable with the post CoV staff levels. And there have been new game and graphics engine tweaks after the IP buyout as well. Maybe not to the overblown view you have, but there has been progress.
Now the good thing the Packs have done is increase revenue that helped get some game features and functions done sooner than expected. And it's not like CoX is going compleatly Micro-Transaction either. A player is not required to have any of the extra packs/boosters in order to play CoX, but they are nice add-ons that enhance the play experience.
I will agree with you that the In-game Ad program seemed to fizzle out. You have to give the Devs enough credit that it was attempted and done so as to be as non-invasive to the playerbase as possiable. Heck, the Devs could of let the Ads go in with out any way to turn them off, but they didn't. And that was around the IP-buyout time. So that ment the 15 member staff.
I think for right now it might be wise to turn the burner down a notch or two, Johnny. Let's see what the Devs are planning. Hanging on to visions of what you "think" this game should do isn't gonna be healthy.
Thank you for the time...
@Travlr (Main) / @Tymers Realm (Test) 
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Now Paragon Studios is about at the same staff strength as when CoV was released. And guess what, there's work on a new CoV-sized release with game engine changes.
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If you don't think it's fair of me to say there's not going to be extensive changes because they've not been talked about, you can't assume there will be for the same reason.
But we can infer some things.
Infer from what they've released to so far and from the survey this expansion pack is based on. And there NOTHING in that to suggest the expansion is going to be that big.
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I think for right now it might be wise to turn the burner down a notch or two, Johnny. Let's see what the Devs are planning.
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For two and a half years I've seen what these devs can do.
And I know the results of what they spent the last year and a half doing after they were bought by NCSoft and staffed up.
And that is exactly what's got me down.
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I read through it mostly and I didn't have to read the thread for long to find my (almost) exact thoughts.
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The real tl;dr:
Use common sense, [censored].
OP is boring cause most sensible people realize as much. On the other hand, the people who'd need to see this won't read it.
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And I am still wondering what could motivate this individual to write nearly 3000 word long text creation that boils down to thinking things yourself with common sense.
I gotta say it's impressive feat, but like said, I doubt it will make "the community" to whom it is addressed any wiser.
I was going to go deeper into the "I want to be SEEN!" portion and the actual OP, but realized that it is not a good idea.
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I was going to go deeper into the "I want to be SEEN!" portion and the actual OP, but realized that it is not a good idea.
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Especially considering that at least three other people already thought of it before you did. 
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I was going to go deeper into the "I want to be SEEN!" portion and the actual OP, but realized that it is not a good idea.
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Especially considering that at least three other people already thought of it before you did.
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Yeah, it is overwhelming what reading slightly further can achieve.
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Now Paragon Studios is about at the same staff strength as when CoV was released. And guess what, there's work on a new CoV-sized release with game engine changes.
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If you don't think it's fair of me to say there's not going to be extensive changes because they've not been talked about, you can't assume there will be for the same reason.
But we can infer some things.
Infer from what they've released to so far and from the survey this expansion pack is based on. And there NOTHING in that to suggest the expansion is going to be that big.
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I think for right now it might be wise to turn the burner down a notch or two, Johnny. Let's see what the Devs are planning.
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For two and a half years I've seen what these devs can do.
And I know the results of what they spent the last year and a half doing after they were bought by NCSoft and staffed up.
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Do me a favor, Johnny. Don't sign up for CO, Star Trek Online, or Star Wars: The Old Republic. I want to be able to try those games without listening to you whining.
My Blogs on TGWTG.com
Angels of Wrath/Evilnighters/Legion of Catgirls
Mission Arc: #352860 - RJ The Road Dog: Big Trouble in Little Tokyo
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For two and a half years I've seen what these devs can do.
And I know the results of what they spent the last year and a half doing after they were bought by NCSoft and staffed up.
And that is exactly what's got me down.
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Schwa? For the last year and a half they've been hiring staff, getting them up to speed and (we now know) starting work on Going Rogue. Before that they barely had the staff to maintain the game and still put out a variety of new game systems, content and zone revamps.
Something like a major overhaul to the game engine/systems i would expect to take about a year or more after getting up to speed. Especially since they have to maintain compatibility with the existing system and character data so that we can continue playing our current characters, and this is just assuming it's mostly a rebuild of the graphics and their implementation in powers and the like.
If they're also doing things like revamping the game's AI and some of the overall powers code i expect it would take nearly as long as starting a game from scratch, which takes years. (Hell, look at how long CO and DCUO have been in development. CO started as MUO years ago before changing their branding.)
It's not as if the instant they have enough staff they can just link hands, chant and poof a brand new version into existence. i'm actually quite impressed with things like the VEATs, customizable weapons and MA system that have come out in the meantime. The expansion/costume packs, power and AT adjustments in the past year and a half have all been good things IMO.
Not being a Dev i don't know exactly what will arrive in the expansion, but i'm looking forward to finding out. The hints and comments in the last year or so from the Devs suggest the outline of something pretty impressive, but i look forward to seeing what form it actually takes. In terms of content alone i expect it to be equivalent to CoV. i suspect that upgrades to the game systems will be far greater than anything that came with CoV.
If the waiting's too much go ahead and play on of the other superhero MMO's and then decide if you want to come back when i16 comes out. i don't think any MMO is going to give you what you've stated you want out of a superhero game in the past, not even CO or DCUO, but i still hope you eventually find it.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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The hints and comments in the last year or so from the Devs suggest the outline of something pretty impressive
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Hints and comments like...?
And of course they're going to vaguely allude to things.
No dev is going say "we've got something really mediocre planned that Positron slapped together between office DnD matches."
You may be giving them far too much credit and reading to too much into their form responses and patting themselves on the back.
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You may be giving them far too much credit and reading to too much into their form responses and patting themselves on the back.
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Well, aren't you a ray of sunshine.
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You may be giving them far too much credit and reading to too much into their form responses and patting themselves on the back.
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Well, aren't you a ray of sunshine.
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More like a shade of grey.
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J.B.: The reason we don't seem like Monolithic giants saving the world is that there is a whole damn city of us.
Sure Superman seem awesome on earth but put a bunch of Kryptonians on planet with a yellow sun and suddenly the bicycle repair man is god.
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Best Monty Python skit ever!
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Now Paragon Studios is about at the same staff strength as when CoV was released. And guess what, there's work on a new CoV-sized release with game engine changes.
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If you don't think it's fair of me to say there's not going to be extensive changes because they've not been talked about, you can't assume there will be for the same reason.
But we can infer some things.
Infer from what they've released to so far and from the survey this expansion pack is based on. And there NOTHING in that to suggest the expansion is going to be that big.
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I think for right now it might be wise to turn the burner down a notch or two, Johnny. Let's see what the Devs are planning.
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For two and a half years I've seen what these devs can do.
And I know the results of what they spent the last year and a half doing after they were bought by NCSoft and staffed up.
And that is exactly what's got me down.
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[/ QUOTE ]Understaffed.
Orientation.
Training.
Do you understand the premise behind those words?
Being woefully understaffed for the better part of a year and still providing updates for the game meant they had no time to actually work on major overhauls.
New hires were then brought on, but you can't sit a coder down to an existing engine and codebase without any training and orientation whatsoever. And, as the devs themselves have said, the engine was not exactly well documented by the original coding team (since you're a tanker fan, I point out Castle's discovery of the way Taunt works being completely different than what the former "powers guy", Geko, had said). It could easily take half a year to get the new team fully trained and oriented to the new "corporate culture" and the codebase they have to work in.
Quite frankly, if you don't get these very simple truths, especially that of training, I question if you've ever even worked a job besides digging ditches, Butane.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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You may be giving them far too much credit and reading to too much into their form responses and patting themselves on the back.
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And you may be giving them too little and being a cranky guy for some strange reason. If you really hate the devs and the game with such vociferous high-temperature flames from hell are you here?
"It's fun trolling the forums..."
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since you're a tanker fan...Taunt
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I'm prepared to let that slide.
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I think for right now it might be wise to turn the burner down a notch or two, Johnny. Let's see what the Devs are planning.
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For two and a half years I've seen what these devs can do.
And I know the results of what they spent the last year and a half doing after they were bought by NCSoft and staffed up.
And that is exactly what's got me down.
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It's not fair to say that the releases over the last 18 months have reflected the new dev team. Let's remember that they didn't magically have all the current staff right after the buyout. To me it looks like they only hit critical mass around December. (In fact if you look at their recruiting web page, they STILL have a bunch of dev slots open.) And it usually takes months for a new developer to get up to speed on a large existing code base.
Given that a major software project can easily take 9-12 months I'm willing to wait and see what Going Rogue (which I'm assuming will be a November-ish release) looks like before passing judgment on the efficacy of the newly enlarged dev team.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I'm willing to wait and see what Going Rogue (which I'm assuming will be a November-ish release) looks like before passing judgment on the efficacy of the newly enlarged dev team.
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But we've been told a Growth power set wasn't feasible!?
Now I can finally create the Giant Man tribute character I've always wanted!
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I'm willing to wait and see what Going Rogue (which I'm assuming will be a November-ish release) looks like before passing judgment on the efficacy of the newly enlarged dev team.
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But we've been told a Growth power set wasn't feasible!?
Now I can finally create the Giant Man tribute character I've always wanted!
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/e yawn.
I can't believe folks are actually wasting time on Johnny.
He has shown time and time again that he has no understanding of very basic concepts.
As has been shown more recently by him thinking you can just wave a magic wand around and think you suddenly have new staff trained and ready to go with doing a game engine overhaul.
The epic silliness of that idea says it all.
EDIT: I look forward to his [censored] posts when the same similar basic mmo problems crop up in CO in a year or so.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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EDIT: I look forward to his [censored] posts when the same similar basic mmo problems crop up in CO in a year or so.
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I hope not. I actually want to try that.
My Blogs on TGWTG.com
Angels of Wrath/Evilnighters/Legion of Catgirls
Mission Arc: #352860 - RJ The Road Dog: Big Trouble in Little Tokyo
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Isn't profit measured by income - overheads? Overheads can change in time. I'm not saying there's hard proof one way or another, but it's entirely feasible given how small the team for CoX got, overheads might have gotten to be teeny-tiny by comparison to before.
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Yep, you're talking about TCO (Total Cost of Ownership).
Generally, things like bandwidth and server hardware tend to go down in cost over time, further depreciation of that hardware reduces tax liabilities. Launching a new game is probably when it is at it's most expensive. It takes probably several years just to reach a break even point from that initial investment. But once that investment has been recouped, then if operational costs are kept low enough, profitability is much easier to maintain that it would have been at launch.
This is why there's some old MMOs that were once big but have a fraction of their former playerbase but are still running out there: the cost of ownership of those aging titles is low enough that even the small revenues they bring in are still a + column for the company overall.
CoX is now a mature title with a fairly decent sized player base even after all these years. NCSoft's investment in the game means that it must not only be profitable, but it must be profitable enough to justify investment (which will increase costs initially in hopes of driving down TCO later).
It's therefore probably safe to assume that CoX is still very profitable and very cost-effective for NCSoft and their new investments are justified by that profitability. To presume otherwise is to assume we know more about their business than NCsoft does, and that is presumptuous in extremis.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Furthermore, even Superman was nerfed in 1986 by one of his lead writers.
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And it was the best thing they could have done for him. Too bad later writers insisted on re-adding all the detritus and baggage that had been removed.
Dec out.
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Anyone who thinks that CO and DCUO will not have a significant effect on the # of subscribers to this game does not understand economics. Im not trying to get into a COHvsCOvsDCUO and which one is going to be better(because no one knows definitively). Just pointing out that people will leave this game and after COH being around for 5 years chances are it will be in greater numbers than new subscribers are coming in. Its all about the product life cycle.
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First off, those two will probably have some effect. "Significant" is very very debatable. And you have to look long term. Are there going to be people trying out CO and DCUO? Absolutely. Is there going to be a mass migration to one or the other? Doubtful. In fact, many many people will try them IN ADDITION to COX, not instead of. Also there will be a contingent that tries those games and later returns to COX. There really won't be any credible data on long term effects until they actually happen.
Dec out.
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For two and a half years I've seen what these devs can do.
And I know the results of what they spent the last year and a half doing after they were bought by NCSoft and staffed up.
And that is exactly what's got me down.
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Actually, that's pretty much stemming from you thinking you know everything that's going on behind the scenes. The devs don't tell us everything they're up to, you know (enough people complain about this for you to have noticed). To do so would be foolish on their part.
Dec out.
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It would make sense to do so, since their current engine is licensed from the competition, and could theoretically be yanked/denied at some point.
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And in that same vein, I wonder if NCSoft pays some sort of "rent" (for lack of a better term) for the use of the game engine. If that is the case, CoX subscribers are payin for CO!.............LOL
I don't look at it like I am paying any money towards CO.
And when that game comes out... I won't be paying Cryptic and money directly.
Last time you gave money to your local grocery store you could have also helped to fund your local drug dealers... How would you know?
/um im not bein mean i swear >.< im just sayin'
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Anyone who thinks that CO and DCUO will not have a significant effect on the # of subscribers to this game does not understand economics. Im not trying to get into a COHvsCOvsDCUO and which one is going to be better(because no one knows definitively). Just pointing out that people will leave this game and after COH being around for 5 years chances are it will be in greater numbers than new subscribers are coming in. Its all about the product life cycle.
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So just because CoX is five years old it's automatically going to die when new games come out? You might want to look up a little thing called Everquest. An understanding of 'economics', aside from being largely irrelevant to what you said, doesn't mean that competetion equals DOOM.
As a matter of fact, the release of CO and DCUO may even provide some benefit to our game, as their advertising dollars may bring new gamers into the MMO market in general and the superhero niche in particular. While it's a given that some of our players will try out these games, either playing both or leaving this one for one of the others, I suspect we're also going to see people jumping ship in the other direction. This game has an established community, a wealth of content, an amazing ability to customize the look of your character that continues to get better and impressive graphics which (IMO) look much better than cell shading. We'll be fine.
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"OMG Burger King will kill McDonalds"
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