An Open Letter to the CoH Community
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-05-16 21:32 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
ED was a giant crap sammich.
I'm glad you enjoyed your mouthful, but I was inspired to cancel.
If they'd had IOs ready to go it would have been fine, but they didn't so it wasn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo. ED and IO's would have perfectly balanced each other out and I don't think you would have heard nearly as much BMW from the forums and players if these two had launched together. But they didn't and all players got was a big giant nerf stick that wasn't rectified until years later.
[IMG]http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2886/coxboardsig.jpg[/IMG][B][SIZE="3"]
The shining world of the seven systems. On the continent of Wild Endeavour. In the mountains of Solace and Solitude there stood the Citadel of the Time Lords. The oldest and most mightiest race in the Universe. Sworn never to interfere. Only watch...[/SIZE][/B]
[ QUOTE ]
Johnny, throwing up apples and oranges comparisons is not going to help your case. You're throwing up examples of realism that a consumer of that genre would expect to be in those particular games. A consumer of a soccer MMO would expect that the goalkeeper and only the goalkeeper would be able to use their hands. A consumer of a racing MMO would expect cars to be able to live up to performance specs.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm showing examples of conventions one would reasonably expect a game to be faithtful to in that respective genre.
Even in the most arcade-like, unrealistic racer, people would expect A Porsche to be faster and more agile than a Pontiac.
You say, there's no "real super heroes" to compare to, but there are comic books, super hero movies and other super hero video games. There are established conventions and people's expectations come from them.
For example, a lot of people would expect the bulletproof hero with super strength to be the team's heavy hitter and strong guy, not just a meatshield.
And in THAT case arguing about it is moot because the devs themselves have admitted their fauliure in that case and have said that not reasonably meeting people's expectations of the genre's conventions in that case was a mistake.
Now, one group of devs broke off and are now doing another game. I wonder if they'll demonstrate they've learned from that specific mistake. My initial impression from reading interviews and previews is maybe they have.
The other group stayed on CoX, and judging from what I've seen here, they've ignored that mistake and have even done things to make it worse.
So, getting back to what Toc said, the devs' SELF ADMITTED FAILURE to reasonably respect genre conventions is far from being a case of the game just not being my preference. The devs themselves have vindicated that preference, and one group of them look like they're trying to mend that failure.
Why this group of devs isn't, I can't say. But what I can say is by ignoring it they're not winning any points in my book.
.
[ QUOTE ]
Now, one of devs broke off and are now doing another game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed. Jack is the only one that left. All of the other game developers stayed with the game.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Champions Online is new so it will kill CoX"
I got tired of hearing it too. Most of this seems to come from people who left here bitter
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should wonder WHY they're leaving bitter.
Maybe the devs should too.
[/ QUOTE ]Then they can fill out the questionnaire you're given when you cancel a subscription.
[ QUOTE ]
Could it be that after years of asking for things they want, THESE devs still wont deliver on them but OTHER devs will?
[/ QUOTE ]Only if they ignore the multiple times these devs have said "Hey, that's a good idea, and we'd love to be able to implement it, but it would require a complete engine overhaul."
[ QUOTE ]
Could be it that few or none of these things look like they will be in the overblown issue 16 they're calling an 'expansion'?
[/ QUOTE ]Wow, info first came out about it a week ago. Give them some time for more announcements, why don't you?
[ QUOTE ]
Or that the expansion means that a true sequel to CoH (which may have the things those people want) is not going to happen any time soon?
[/ QUOTE ]Two words about MMO sequels. "Everquest 2".
[ QUOTE ]
If our devs refuse to give these players what they want, and other devs will, why should the players be happy with our devs and why should they stick around? And leaving quietly doesn't deliver the message to these devs WHY people are leaving.
[/ QUOTE ]Freeform power selection: tried in Alpha, didn't work. At this point, changing it would be an entirely new game, and a horrible idea on par with Star Wars Galaxies: New Game Experience.
Power Customization: BABs already explained this. Weapon Customization is step 1, but anything further requires wholesale engine upgrades because animations are baked in.
[ QUOTE ]
If the devs get the message they may smarten up.
Or they may opt not to fight for their business. Frankly, if they're not willing to fight for their customers, that says a lot about how they feel about their customers, and how their customers should feel about them and the game.
[/ QUOTE ]They are, they just can't do the impossible, being as it's, you know.... impossible.
[ QUOTE ]
.
[/ QUOTE ]Something your post lacked.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
|
[ QUOTE ]
Power Customization: BABs already explained this. Weapon Customization is step 1, but anything further requires wholesale engine upgrades because animations are baked in.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm wondering if the reason why they hired so many people and have so little to show for it so far isn't just because of Going Rogue... I wonder if they're rewriting the game's engine from the ground up? 
It would make sense to do so, since their current engine is licensed from the competition, and could theoretically be yanked/denied at some point.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Power Customization: BABs already explained this. Weapon Customization is step 1, but anything further requires wholesale engine upgrades because animations are baked in.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm wondering if the reason why they hired so many people and have so little to show for it so far isn't just because of Going Rogue... I wonder if they're rewriting the game's engine from the ground up?
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect it's likely.
Isn't that where the "Type R" programmer quote came from? He was asked about a possible graphics upgrade, and Posi said "We brought in several Type R (inside joke) programmers to look into this possibility" or something?
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm showing examples of conventions one would reasonably expect a game to be faithtful to in that respective genre.
[/ QUOTE ]
You listed soccer. Soccer is based on a set code of real-life rules. You listed racing games which are based on real-world vehicles and physics. None of these apply to superhero comics, which are works of fiction and based strictly on the imagination o the writer and reader.
[ QUOTE ]
Even in the most arcade-like, unrealistic racer, people would expect A Porsche to be faster and more agile than a Pontiac.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Faster" is based on real measurements. "Super" is a matter of opinion.
And besides, a car from an existing brand will always be faster than a car that doesn't exist, so that's not even a real argument.
[ QUOTE ]
"You say, there's no "real super heroes" to compare to, but there are comic books, super hero movies and other super hero video games. There are established conventions and people's expectations come from them."
[/ QUOTE ]
And those conventions and expectations change from character to character, publisher to publisher, and even writer to writer doing the same character. Some Superheroes fly around, shoot heat rays out of their eyes, and are only vulnerable to Kryptonite (which others find boring because there's no real plot). Some superheroes only prowl the night armed with whatever training and gadgets they have acquired over their life. Some superheroes are born with genetically-hardcoded superpowers, but are kept down by society's prejudices.
It's different for different people. Comic book conventions are not like soccer rules or driving physics, both of which are relatively static.
Furthermore, even Superman was nerfed in 1986 by one of his lead writers.
My Blogs on TGWTG.com
Angels of Wrath/Evilnighters/Legion of Catgirls
Mission Arc: #352860 - RJ The Road Dog: Big Trouble in Little Tokyo
[ QUOTE ]
Only if they ignore the multiple times these devs have said "Hey, that's a good idea, and we'd love to be able to implement it, but it would require a complete engine overhaul."
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe when those things started to pile up they should have DONE an engine overhaul A YEAR AND A HALF AGO instead of spending that time screwing around pushing out booster packs and trying to chase rainbows like thinking in-game advertising would catch on in a five year old stale title with a shrinking audience.
Then maybe they'd have something to SHOW now besides a pre-rendered cinematic and would be able to deliver those long asked-for features to compete with CO, a game that's offering many of those features.
But the engine isn't what's stopping the devs from addressing the over restrictive nature of the AT/powers system. The engine isn't what's stopping new travel powers from being created. The engine didn't make all the grassy areas in the game perfectly flat polygons, the engine is quite capable of rendering rolling hills. The engine isn't stopping zones from having more content. It's not keeping Dark Astoria and Boomtown empty. The engine didn't stop dual pistols from being created. That's a relatively easy power set to make.
CO isn't a surprise for them. They knew there was a team working on MUO long before they split formally. They likely knew CO was on the horizon when the project became that. They knew competition was on the way, but they couldn't act until NC bought them out. Well that was a year and a half ago, which means they had that time to be laying the ground work on something big to respond with. Going Rogue, based on the survey and based on what they've said, doesn't sound like a year and a half went into it and doesn't look like anything special. You can read for yourself likely features it's going to have. They posted the survey on Massively long ago. It doesn't side like an engine overhaul or even anything more than i16 with some stuff tacked on to pad it.
.
[ QUOTE ]
A TOO MUCH thought out post 
.
Pax
[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed that for you.
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe when those things started to pile up they should have DONE an engine overhaul A YEAR AND A HALF AGO
[/ QUOTE ]
If they have made the changes, Johnny, you'd still be upset and threatening to leave over something
My Blogs on TGWTG.com
Angels of Wrath/Evilnighters/Legion of Catgirls
Mission Arc: #352860 - RJ The Road Dog: Big Trouble in Little Tokyo
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe when those things started to pile up they should have DONE an engine overhaul A YEAR AND A HALF AGO
[/ QUOTE ]
If they have made the changes, Johnny, you'd still be upset and threatening to leave over something
[/ QUOTE ]
I saw someone's sig that was along the lines of this:
The devs could implement perma double xp, create three new powersets a week and give you any IO anyone could ever want, and someone would still be upset about it.
http://www.seventhsanctum.com/index-anim.php
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
Anyone who thinks that CO and DCUO will not have a significant effect on the # of subscribers to this game does not understand economics. Im not trying to get into a COHvsCOvsDCUO and which one is going to be better(because no one knows definitively). Just pointing out that people will leave this game and after COH being around for 5 years chances are it will be in greater numbers than new subscribers are coming in. Its all about the product life cycle.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only if they ignore the multiple times these devs have said "Hey, that's a good idea, and we'd love to be able to implement it, but it would require a complete engine overhaul."
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe when those things started to pile up they should have DONE an engine overhaul A YEAR AND A HALF AGO instead of spending that time screwing around pushing out booster packs and trying to chase rainbows like thinking in-game advertising would catch on in a five year old stale title with a shrinking audience.
[/ QUOTE ]A year and a half ago when they had fewer devs on board than it takes people to run a [censored] McDonald's?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
|
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks that CO and DCUO will not have a significant effect on the # of subscribers to this game does not understand economics. Im not trying to get into a COHvsCOvsDCUO and which one is going to be better(because no one knows definitively). Just pointing out that people will leave this game and after COH being around for 5 years chances are it will be in greater numbers than new subscribers are coming in. Its all about the product life cycle.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why hasn't WAR been a WoW killer?
My Blogs on TGWTG.com
Angels of Wrath/Evilnighters/Legion of Catgirls
Mission Arc: #352860 - RJ The Road Dog: Big Trouble in Little Tokyo
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks that CO and DCUO will not have a significant effect on the # of subscribers to this game does not understand economics. Im not trying to get into a COHvsCOvsDCUO and which one is going to be better(because no one knows definitively). Just pointing out that people will leave this game and after COH being around for 5 years chances are it will be in greater numbers than new subscribers are coming in. Its all about the product life cycle.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why hasn't WAR been a WoW killer?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because they didn't have the Blizzkids?
WoW is an abnormality.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only if they ignore the multiple times these devs have said "Hey, that's a good idea, and we'd love to be able to implement it, but it would require a complete engine overhaul."
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe when those things started to pile up they should have DONE an engine overhaul A YEAR AND A HALF AGO instead of spending that time screwing around pushing out booster packs and trying to chase rainbows like thinking in-game advertising would catch on in a five year old stale title with a shrinking audience.
[/ QUOTE ]A year and a half ago when they had fewer devs on board than it takes people to run a [censored] McDonald's?
[/ QUOTE ]
And it was owned by two companies, thus further complicating the concept of "Spending Money".
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Meh, I still enjoy the game even if it's not 100% whatever.
I will admit I am looking forward to DCU, major reason I'm a long time DC fan. Especially Green Lanter and the JLA line. But the game has to be fun and functional. It can be as pretty and colorful as it wants to be, but if the game mechanics suck, I wont be staying.
I doubt very much that I will ever cancel my CO account, I love this game and always look forward to more content.
Pinnacle-Pale Spectre 50 Kat/Regen/Dark Scrapper
Spectre of the Gun 50 Thugs/Dark/Soul Mastery MM
MA Story Spectre of the Gun's Search" ID #352424
Spectral Darque 50 Dark/Dark Scrapper
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks that CO and DCUO will not have a significant effect on the # of subscribers to this game does not understand economics. Im not trying to get into a COHvsCOvsDCUO and which one is going to be better(because no one knows definitively). Just pointing out that people will leave this game and after COH being around for 5 years chances are it will be in greater numbers than new subscribers are coming in. Its all about the product life cycle.
[/ QUOTE ]
So just because CoX is five years old it's automatically going to die when new games come out? You might want to look up a little thing called Everquest. An understanding of 'economics', aside from being largely irrelevant to what you said, doesn't mean that competetion equals DOOM.
As a matter of fact, the release of CO and DCUO may even provide some benefit to our game, as their advertising dollars may bring new gamers into the MMO market in general and the superhero niche in particular. While it's a given that some of our players will try out these games, either playing both or leaving this one for one of the others, I suspect we're also going to see people jumping ship in the other direction. This game has an established community, a wealth of content, an amazing ability to customize the look of your character that continues to get better and impressive graphics which (IMO) look much better than cell shading. We'll be fine.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
J.B.: The reason we don't seem like Monolithic giants saving the world is that there is a whole damn city of us.
Sure Superman seem awesome on earth but put a bunch of Kryptonians on planet with a yellow sun and suddenly the bicycle repair man is god.
[ QUOTE ]
J.B.: The reason we don't seem like Monolithic giants saving the world is that there is a whole damn city of us.
Sure Superman seem awesome on earth but put a bunch of Kryptonians on planet with a yellow sun and suddenly the bicycle repair man is god.
[/ QUOTE ]
For proof, read some of the more recent Superman books. Superman has not been "the Last Kryptonian" for quite some time.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
[ QUOTE ]
ED was a giant crap sammich.
I'm glad you enjoyed your mouthful, but I was inspired to cancel.
If they'd had IOs ready to go it would have been fine, but they didn't so it wasn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is my biggest complaint about ED. Jack made a VERY oblique remark at the time that they had to do ED in order to enable some coming changes but I think the timing was horrible. If they would've rolled out ED in conjunction with IOs, there still would've been an uproar but people would've quickly realized they could build more powerful and versitile characters than they could pre-IO/pre-ED.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
TBH, if I can't have more than 10 powers at the same time... I dislike the game.
I love how in this game YOU can actually have like 20 powers all at the same time. This is GOLDEN. Something to appreciate.
OMG You can have trays and trays of powers. It really is AWESOME.
DCUO you only get like 4 or 5 powers >.>
Johnny, throwing up apples and oranges comparisons is not going to help your case. You're throwing up examples of realism that a consumer of that genre would expect to be in those particular games. A consumer of a soccer MMO would expect that the goalkeeper and only the goalkeeper would be able to use their hands. A consumer of a racing MMO would expect cars to be able to live up to performance specs.
This is a superhero MMO, which is not based on reality. Something that may at times look like reality, yes, but not based on any type of reality you and I are familiar with. There is no baseline of expectation other than, say, costumes, nice effects, and maybe a sense of morality.
And if you think there's a reality that superhero comics are based in, you need psychological help.
My Blogs on TGWTG.com
Angels of Wrath/Evilnighters/Legion of Catgirls
Mission Arc: #352860 - RJ The Road Dog: Big Trouble in Little Tokyo