Better Open World Content
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2009-05-12 08:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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We could do similar things here - create unique landmarks in the world that missions send you to interact with or investigate. And instanced missions could follow from a lot of those missions. For example, investigate Frostfire's lair - a static building with ice patches around it with some specific guards out front. In fact, a lot of things would be made possible just by putting mission entrances at static doors instead of random. Maybe the Freak HQ has some funky machinery out front, or some specific guards posted. Maybe that CoT boss is at the instanced end of a non-instanced cave system with a unique look and feel.
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These all sound really cool. You know what would make them even better? If I could experience them just with my friends without having xXN I N J AXx and dark rouge angle jumping in on our fights with a "lol".
And that, my friend, is why I love instancing.
What if, when you reached the Freak HQ, you could choose whether to explore it in the open world or as an instanced copy of it? Then everyone could be happy (except the people who want to force other people to play their way, anyway).
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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What if, when you reached the Freak HQ, you could choose whether to explore it in the open world or as an instance? Then everyone could be happy (except the people who want to force other people to play their way, anyway).
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As I recall, Conan had a few places like that.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Better Instanced Content plz.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Actually asking this question here will get a rather negative response because for a large part I think many players play CoH because they hate this as applied in other games.
I've done WoW and EQ and fought for (the spot) which is always hogged by Gold farmers overseas who basically never log off (someone else just takes their place). That is the definition of not fun.
I've done open PvP games and that is HORRIBLY messed up. Try to level up a character and find challenging mobs to fight when higher level players will just come by and whack you randomly. Again definition of not fun.
Personally I think the way to fix this in CoH is to make outdoor hunting "badges" for which only non-grey mobs you personally kill (so large teams covering the whole zone or sweeping Hazard Zones don't muck up the point) qualify. Killing 50-100 Skulls/Infected/Hellions in Mercy is very doable (and actually fun as a change of pace). Now if you make a few of them per level range 1 player can't get them all but I don't see that as a problem myself. Then give some small reward like merits for achiving the badge.
What is also interesting is the code that makes defeat half debt indoors. This was done for CoH and makes no sense in CoV where there are no Hazard Zones to farm.
The only way to make Open World really work is to make every piece of content randomly spawn in a different place each time. So to get the "magic" flute spawn it may happen in one of 20 places or limits a player from getting an item more than once or twice. Of course then you are back to requiring higher levels for content or farmers just keep creating new characters to take over their farms.
Do not underestimate the ability of players to break their own game or make it unplayable for others. Many will try very hard to do so.
----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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What if, when you reached the Freak HQ, you could choose whether to explore it in the open world or as an instance? Then everyone could be happy (except the people who want to force other people to play their way, anyway).
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As I recall, Conan had a few places like that.
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I think CoX should steal this technology and add it to their own.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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I'd be ecstatic about improved zone content.
That was the one huge edge WoW had over CoH for me. Running around the "zone" was a lot more immersive because there was stuff to do and investigate.
I'd love to have something variation of that in CoH. Bank robbery in progress, riot in the Silver Lake district, CoT invasion through the entrance to Perez Park, some *reason* to pay attention to the zone, a reason for them to exist beyond putting distance between mission doors and having some stuff to farm if you're in the mood.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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What if, when you reached the Freak HQ, you could choose whether to explore it in the open world or as an instance? Then everyone could be happy (except the people who want to force other people to play their way, anyway).
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I'm not sure if it would make sense to have the inside of the Freak HQ be non-instanced... that would cause a lot of the same problems I mentioned with instanced content before, or just really limit the kind of content the devs could stuff in there. Plus it would cause EQ syndrome, where supposed stronghold of every enemy race was stuffed to the gills with players, which just seems silly. I was talking about the building itslef - 1) it should be non-random, so that every time you get the quest to go there, you always go to the same place, and 2) that would allow them to make it look interesting, with interesting features surrounding it.
But as far as running into annoying players, that is one of the beauties of instanced missions, and why non-instanced content shouldn't be overused. I just don't think we use it enough. But yeah, I guess if you're that annoyed by random players, then you might not like any non-instanced content at all. But I do think it makes for a stronger and more appealing game.
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ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
I think running into annoying players is part of the beauty of MMOs. Forced interaction, getting to know other players. You can go your entire run in CoH without getting to know one player.
In previous games if you were a griefer your name spread like wildfire and you would pay for it.
In game politics and social functions are pretty much non-existent in CoH. Sure there are some events at Pocket D, but no real major hubs of people just having light conversation. And no I don't mean standing under Atlas in a party using a private chat.
The social aspect is something I haven't seen too much outside of EQ even though WoW does have it somewhat.
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Better Instanced Content plz.
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Honestly, this is my opinion too. The only thing wrong with CoX instances is that the vast majority of them are a random set of hallways filled with loitering foes connecting a few rooms, also filled with loitering foes, using one of 5 or so tilesets. They don't look like labs or offices, they look like purposeless hallways and rooms connected in an erratic manner and decorated to resemble something almost, but not quite, entirely unlike an actual office building or lab.
The best instanced maps in the game are the ones that actually look like something instead of a decorated simple maze. Most of these happen to be outdoor instances, I'd like to see more maps designed to look like something real like shopping malls, grocery stores, schools, libraries, museums, etc. Not just based on the tileset, but based on the layout.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
The one thing I kind of miss about true Open World Environments.....
I can point myself in a random direction and explore. In other games I could spend s couple of hours just walking in one direction and seeing the different landscape. The scale of such an environment is a fun distraction, at least to me.
That being said on Open World would just not work with Travel powers. We move way too fast to really enjoy the details that would be found in such an environment.
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The one thing I kind of miss about true Open World Environments.....
I can point myself in a random direction and explore. In other games I could spend s couple of hours just walking in one direction and seeing the different landscape. The scale of such an environment is a fun distraction, at least to me.
That being said on Open World would just not work with Travel powers. We move way too fast to really enjoy the details that would be found in such an environment.
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That problem is usually solved by making the world bigger.
You can move quickly mounted in WoW for example, but the time it takes to cross a continent is quite the ride. The only problem with that in WoW is there isn't really anything to explore.
I miss games with exploration and hidden items you can only find in particular zones.
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Honestly, this is my opinion too. The only thing wrong with CoX instances is that the vast majority of them are a random set of hallways filled with loitering foes connecting a few rooms, also filled with loitering foes, using one of 5 or so tilesets. They don't look like labs or offices, they look like purposeless hallways and rooms connected in an erratic manner and decorated to resemble something almost, but not quite, entirely unlike an actual office building or lab.
The best instanced maps in the game are the ones that actually look like something instead of a decorated simple maze. Most of these happen to be outdoor instances, I'd like to see more maps designed to look like something real like shopping malls, grocery stores, schools, libraries, museums, etc. Not just based on the tileset, but based on the layout.
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I'll drink to that.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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The only problem with that in WoW is there isn't really anything to explore.
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Really? I feel like there's tons to explore in that game. The whole game is littered with little POIs and open-world dungeons that make it really interesting, IMO.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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The only problem with that in WoW is there isn't really anything to explore.
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Really? I feel like there's tons to explore in that game. The whole game is littered with little POIs and open-world dungeons that make it really interesting, IMO.
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Well for starters the content scales by level so you're restricted from exploring unless you're ok with dying a lot.
It also has this annoying way of making POI the only reason to go from point A to point B so if you're not in the range for that POI you have no reason to be there.
There's really not much to explore in WoW unless you're the appropriate level for the content there which means you'll end up there to begin with.
Exploration always seems to take a backseat in a lot of games. I think scaling zones by level tends to ruin most chances anyway.
Now in EQ you could really explore. If you were too low there were ways around it and aggro didn't increase just because of your level. Likewise you could also play and Enchanter and go pretty much anywhere or play a Druid and get around with shear speed and teleports. I loved traveling in EQ more than any other game. Invisibility also helped any caster travel. So much to see and do regardless of level.
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There's really not much to explore in WoW unless you're the appropriate level for the content there which means you'll end up there to begin with.
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Heh, that's a good point. Fair enough.
I think the issue is that creating POIs like that, because it's art, is one of the most resource-intensive parts of development. So they don't have the resources to just create a POI that's exclusively for exploring and doesn't tie in to content at all.
I'm some combination of acheiver/explorer, so my personal exploration urge is best satisfied by directed content. It would feel like a waste to me to have some really cool thing sitting out in the middle of nowhere that's never used by the content. And actually, CoX does that in a couple places (the crashed pirate ship in Nerva, for example). Not many, though.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
Am I the only person who has played two characters to high levels with no travel power specifically to enjoy the zones? There are tons of neat, hidden/cool things in CoX. People just never take the time to look.
We use guides to find exploration badges and plagues, and we don't bother checking out the zones because we feel there is no reason.
One of the coolest things I ever found was that many of the buildings in St. Martial allow you to enter the lobby then take the elevator to the roof.
And the roofs of many of those buildings are really cool.
What I would like to see is more places where I can click on a door or entrance and actually get to see the inside of the building. The carnie tents in St. martial stand out to me as somewhere that could potentially be an awesome space inside.
I'd probably lose hours just randomly clicking doors to see what was inside. I found the lobby's in St. martial by accident.
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Am I the only person who has played two characters to high levels with no travel power specifically to enjoy the zones? There are tons of neat, hidden/cool things in CoX. People just never take the time to look.
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well, where's the motivation?
there's nothing to do, from a game perspective.
sightseeing can be fun (I'm always tempted to take Fly just because it's such a scenic way to travel), but unless there's something to *do* along the way not many people are going to embrace it.
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We use guides to find exploration badges and plagues, and we don't bother checking out the zones because we feel there is no reason.
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there IS no reason- zones in this game are elaborate lobbies to pass through between missions.
As for badges, I'm leveling a semi-RP stalker right now. He doesn't have a travel power and so has 'explored' a lot more of the game's landscape than most. While I'm jogging to missions I'll go out of my way to check out scenery that looks interesting.
And yet, he has very few exploration badges.
Badges aren't usually placed in spots that call out for investigation, they're more often stuck in unremarkable or out of the way bits of generic scenery.
If badges had been tied more closely to interesting landmarks instead of requiring a pixel-by-pixel dissection of the zone there wouldn't have been such demand for an in-game guide.
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One of the coolest things I ever found was that many of the buildings in St. Martial allow you to enter the lobby then take the elevator to the roof.
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When this ranks as the coolest discovery of a self-described zone explorer, the reason most people ignore them becomes obvious.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Better Instanced Content plz.
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Honestly, this is my opinion too. The only thing wrong with CoX instances is that the vast majority of them are a random set of hallways filled with loitering foes connecting a few rooms, also filled with loitering foes, using one of 5 or so tilesets. They don't look like labs or offices, they look like purposeless hallways and rooms connected in an erratic manner and decorated to resemble something almost, but not quite, entirely unlike an actual office building or lab.
The best instanced maps in the game are the ones that actually look like something instead of a decorated simple maze. Most of these happen to be outdoor instances, I'd like to see more maps designed to look like something real like shopping malls, grocery stores, schools, libraries, museums, etc. Not just based on the tileset, but based on the layout.
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I only played the free trial for Dungeons and Dragons Online, but one thing that struck me about their instances was that they had more of a handcrafted feel to them. Also they had traps. CoX could use some of that.
I was on a Dr. Q tf when I identified the three elevator lab map and the location of the boss room 5 secs after entering the mish. Someone asked how I knew that. After five years of the same maps with the same spawn points, you just know.
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I was on a Dr. Q tf when I identified the three elevator lab map and the location of the boss room 5 secs after entering the mish. Someone asked how I knew that. After five years of the same maps with the same spawn points, you just know.
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I don't have to consciously think about it any more- I can find the objectives in 99% of the missions I run on autopilot. I can be chatting with my wife and my hands automatically guide me to the hostage, or the bomb, or whatever.
It's kinda creepy, actually.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
<QR>
Clearly, people who say there's nothing interesting in CoX to look at or explore haven't been to the Shard. 
I go to the Shard to sightsee and.. yell at the fountains, but that's inadvertant. Also, have you people BEEN to Faultline? I love that zone. The PvP zones are amazing to look at too to just explore.
Since the player mentioned "that other game," I for one am glad the majority of CoX isn't set in zones capped at 25 where everyone's competing for the same goals. Could you imagine if they lowered Lusca's spawn rate and then had everyone's contacts in the level range have you go take her down to get a sucker from her tentacle that was a random drop for those people/groups who did x% damage to her?
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Druid and get around with shear speed and teleports. I loved traveling in EQ more than any other game. Invisibility also helped any caster travel. So much to see and do regardless of level.
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It was all about Bard-speed 
Aside from the bloody boats I could get anywhere in EQ in no time, plus I learned the layout of the world pretty well. Perhaps that's why I love Travel Powers in CoH so much...
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Instanced content is great, but I feel that CoX overuses instances. On the other hand, open world content is great, but most other MMOs overuse it as well. We could stand to have more open world content for sure - they just have to be careful not to make the same mistakes that other games make. So you should never have to wait in line to rescue/kill/click on a thing - either don't put those types of quests into the open world, or use phasing so that each person sees his own copy of the thing.
One of the things I think WoW does nicely is have unique and interesting landmarks in the open world that quests require you to interact with:
- check out the beached sea monster
- steal some stuff from that weird village down there
- explore that pirate ship down there
and so on.
We could do similar things here - create unique landmarks in the world that missions send you to interact with or investigate. And instanced missions could follow from a lot of those missions. For example, investigate Frostfire's lair - a static building with ice patches around it with some specific guards out front. In fact, a lot of things would be made possible just by putting mission entrances at static doors instead of random. Maybe the Freak HQ has some funky machinery out front, or some specific guards posted. Maybe that CoT boss is at the instanced end of a non-instanced cave system with a unique look and feel.
So I think the idea of open world content is great, but it has a few basic flaws in most MMOs that the devs can avoid easily.
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Well put, and I completely agree. I've always thought that CoX had unmatched variation in player characterization, but was very shallow in its environments. WoW does a great job with mixing up instances and open world, but the characters are very generic in look and function. An ideal game would have depth in both ways.
The AE was a step in the right direction, but I agree that more open world content is really something that this game needs to spice things up.
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Druid and get around with shear speed and teleports. I loved traveling in EQ more than any other game. Invisibility also helped any caster travel. So much to see and do regardless of level.
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It was all about Bard-speed Aside from the bloody boats I could get anywhere in EQ in no time, plus I learned the layout of the world pretty well. Perhaps that's why I love Travel Powers in CoH so much...
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I forgot all about bard lol! That was one of my favorites too. My Vah'Shir(sp?) bard with his giant drum.
My favorite was druid though I just loved wolf form and being able to make my friends levitating, invisible, wolves too.
From the obvious Council base in the RWZ - which goes on to quite a depth actually, to the Crey caged 'zoo' in Nerva, there is a lot to explore.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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I think there is room for some more open world missions in CoH -- there is a little bit, but not enough.
I agree with others that KS (kill stealing) and camping aren't fun, but there is something to be said about doing missions in the open world -- it's easier to run into others who are doing your mission and start a team that way (to avoid kill stealing).
More variation on the mission doors would be a good thing for CoH...
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QFT... Instanced content is great, but I feel that CoX overuses instances. On the other hand, open world content is great, but most other MMOs overuse it as well. We could stand to have more open world content for sure - they just have to be careful not to make the same mistakes that other games make. So you should never have to wait in line to rescue/kill/click on a thing - either don't put those types of quests into the open world, or use phasing so that each person sees his own copy of the thing.
One of the things I think WoW does nicely is have unique and interesting landmarks in the open world that quests require you to interact with:
- check out the beached sea monster
- steal some stuff from that weird village down there
- explore that pirate ship down there
and so on.
We could do similar things here - create unique landmarks in the world that missions send you to interact with or investigate. And instanced missions could follow from a lot of those missions. For example, investigate Frostfire's lair - a static building with ice patches around it with some specific guards out front. In fact, a lot of things would be made possible just by putting mission entrances at static doors instead of random. Maybe the Freak HQ has some funky machinery out front, or some specific guards posted. Maybe that CoT boss is at the instanced end of a non-instanced cave system with a unique look and feel.
So I think the idea of open world content is great, but it has a few basic flaws in most MMOs that the devs can avoid easily.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!