No set proliferations in I15?
By
Akuma_Mishima,
Posted on: 2009-04-29 16:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Why is "concept" brought up only for certain cases of proliferation and given a complete bypass for others?
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Because devs like concept and have made changes based on it. This is why villains don't have Empathy and heroes don't have Poison.
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You're missing my point. Why is it only brought up SOMETIMES to deny a proliferation when there are so many examples of existing powers that would seem to break those same rules? Why deny Poison to heroes when they already have powers that "generate toxic radioactive gas around yourself". Why is Poison any worse than "deadly radiation"? Or burning people alive? Or cutting them up with a Broadsword?
Even if they suddenly started caring about concept only recently, unless they plan to go back and remove all the non-concept powers from each side that has them... what's the point of caring about it now? This is closing the barn door after the horses have left.
Also, as funny as the MGS references to "It's just a box!" are... in all seriousness Shield Defense wouldn't have anything more to do with HOW the stalker hides than Regen or Willpower or Electric Armor currently do (which is to say, nothing at all).
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
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Jade,
Cold for Brutes was already tried and abandoned during CoV's beta, because it kept slowing down the mobs and interfering with Brute anger management. 
In before rehashed and tired argument of Ice Armor Brutes and Fury, blahblahblah
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In before rehashed and tired argument of Ice Armor Brutes and Fury, blahblahblah
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Clouded's right. We tore the argument against ice armor for brutes a new hole a thousand times over.
Be well, people of CoH.
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In before rehashed and tired argument of Ice Armor Brutes and Fury, blahblahblah
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Clouded's right. We tore the argument against ice armor for brutes a new hole a thousand times over.
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Just in case you missed 'em though....
During CoV Beta, they discovered that the slows and -recharge that are the secondary effect of Ice was interfering with Fury generation. For this reason, Ice was pulled as an option for Brutes. Later during the Beta, they tweaked the way that Fury worked. After they did this, they didn't go back to check how Ice would work with New Fury.
It is the belief among quite a few of us here that Ice would not be a such a disadvantage under New Fury as it was under Old Fury.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
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In before rehashed and tired argument of Ice Armor Brutes and Fury, blahblahblah
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Clouded's right. We tore the argument against ice armor for brutes a new hole a thousand times over.
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Just in case you missed 'em though....
During CoV Beta, they discovered that the slows and -recharge that are the secondary effect of Ice was interfering with Fury generation. For this reason, Ice was pulled as an option for Brutes. Later during the Beta, they tweaked the way that Fury worked. After they did this, they didn't go back to check how Ice would work with New Fury.
It is the belief among quite a few of us here that Ice would not be a such a disadvantage under New Fury as it was under Old Fury.
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You left out how many other primaries and secondaries include powers that mitigate damage by halting/slowing the enemy's ability to attack, thus reducing fury generation.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Why is "concept" brought up only for certain cases of proliferation and given a complete bypass for others?
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Because devs like concept and have made changes based on it. This is why villains don't have Empathy and heroes don't have Poison.
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You're missing my point. Why is it only brought up SOMETIMES to deny a proliferation when there are so many examples of existing powers that would seem to break those same rules? Why deny Poison to heroes when they already have powers that "generate toxic radioactive gas around yourself". Why is Poison any worse than "deadly radiation"? Or burning people alive? Or cutting them up with a Broadsword?
Even if they suddenly started caring about concept only recently, unless they plan to go back and remove all the non-concept powers from each side that has them... what's the point of caring about it now? This is closing the barn door after the horses have left.
Also, as funny as the MGS references to "It's just a box!" are... in all seriousness Shield Defense wouldn't have anything more to do with HOW the stalker hides than Regen or Willpower or Electric Armor currently do (which is to say, nothing at all).
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It's all about where you want to draw the line. Of course we all pick a different place.
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Just in case you missed 'em though....
During CoV Beta, they discovered that the slows and -recharge that are the secondary effect of Ice was interfering with Fury generation. For this reason, Ice was pulled as an option for Brutes. Later during the Beta, they tweaked the way that Fury worked. After they did this, they didn't go back to check how Ice would work with New Fury.
It is the belief among quite a few of us here that Ice would not be a such a disadvantage under New Fury as it was under Old Fury.
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You left out how many other primaries and secondaries include powers that mitigate damage by halting/slowing the enemy's ability to attack, thus reducing fury generation.
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IIRC, that was the reason for New Fury in the first place. They never gave Ice a second chance. Given that there are sets with Stuns, Knockdowns and Fears, -recharge shouldn't be that big an issue, thus the "not such a huge disadvantage under New Fury..."
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
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It's all about where you want to draw the line. Of course we all pick a different place.
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It seems more like a "when" than a "where" to me. You realize that the word "deadly" does not appear anywhere in the power descriptions for the MM's Poison powerset, yet it appears several times in the descriptions of Radiation Emission powers? And before anyone tries to say descriptions don't mean anything, remember... we're talking about concept here, not mechanics.
If anything, the Poison powerset looks carefully designed to be harmful, but not lethal, whereas the Radiation Emission powerset reads like "you might easily die from exposure to this". And just look at Fallout! After an ally falls you can "extract the energy from their body"?! Corpse explosion? You have to be a necromancer in some games for that. Here it apparently won't stop you from getting your face on a cereal box.
But thank goodness Villains can't empathize with one another, cause that would just be WRONG.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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You're missing my point. Why is it only brought up SOMETIMES to deny a proliferation when there are so many examples of existing powers that would seem to break those same rules?
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Can't say I know. I can only imagine it's because there's more than one person working on things (possibly even different people than there were originally) and sometimes the person who's doing stuff at the time doesn't care about concept or has other priorities over concept. If I was in charge of anything related to concept, Brutes and Tanks wouldn't have Dual Blades.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If I was in charge of anything related to concept, Brutes and Tanks wouldn't have Dual Blades.
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Good thing you aren't in charge then.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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If I was in charge of anything related to concept, Brutes and Tanks wouldn't have Dual Blades.
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Good thing you aren't in charge then.
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I know. 
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If I was in charge of anything related to concept, Brutes and Tanks wouldn't have Dual Blades.
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Good thing you aren't in charge then.
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I agree. They should make the powersets available, and let us worry about concept.
I have a Tank and a Brute with Dual Blades that I am very happy with.
Tiny Tom is my DB/DA Brute who was exiled by his fellow Redcaps for being too violent. When the rest of his clan tried to strip him of his power before shunning him, he broke free of his bonds and attacked the leader of the clan, causing a magical backlash. That fallout is the source of his Dark Armor powers.
Ushabti is my FA/DB Tanker. Ushabti is a guardian statue brought to life and empowered by priests of Ra to combat Apep (my DB/DA Stalker), who has been released again onto the mortal plane.
I could easily make villains with an Empathy powerset, or heroes with a Poison powerset, it's all in how you write it. Heck, I have comcepts in my head for heroic Stalkers and villainous Defenders.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
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I could easily make villains with an Empathy powerset, or heroes with a Poison powerset, it's all in how you write it. Heck, I have comcepts in my head for heroic Stalkers and villainous Defenders.
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Exactly my biggest pet peeve as far as proliferation goes is Archery and Broad Sword. If hacking people to bits with a huge sword; or filling them with pointy stabbers, isn't evil I don't know what is these days! Hell BS seems more like a brute set in play than a scrapper one... it is slow, strong, and unfluent. Give a really pissed off dude one o those and watch the bodies pile up.
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Nor is it possible to "arrest" someone by hosing them down with a flamethrower, but that doesn't seem to prevent the devs from giving all manner of terrible weapons and powers to heroes who are generally expected to defeat, not kill, the bad guys.
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Like most words, arrest has several meanings. One just happens to mean to bring to a stop. Both, death and incarceration achieve that. It's up to your character to determine how they "arrest".
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Why is "concept" brought up only for certain cases of proliferation and given a complete bypass for others? Villains can't heal each other with Empathy but heroes can go to town on a purse snatcher with a massive BATTLE AXE of all things? Stalkers can't hide or move silently while carrying a shield, but they can do so while surrounded by a brilliant crackling field of electricity?
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We've already addressed killing so the battle axe argument is moot. Why do stalkers get Electricity but, not shields? I don't know. I would not have proliferated Elec if that was my decision to make. It makes about as much sense as ducking behind a shield or knowing someone else can't see you (willpower).
I have no problem with gadgetry making you silent or invisible but, a shield is not the best representation of such a devise. 
--Rad
/whereami:
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I want my Ninjitsu Scrapper damnit!
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Since it looks like Stalkers will probably never get Shields, I have a feeling Ninjitsu will end up staying unique to them as some sort of compensation.
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The comedy of Hide with a shield as the tool is something that can't be underestimated.
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It makes exactly as much sense as regen hide, or for that matter, the powers that shields get that have nothing to do with shields, such as true grit or aoo.
The hide skill can be done independently of the shield. There's no rule that it has to be RPed as a function of the set's theme.
However, some of the most distinctive shield powers would not work with a stalker's style.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
I feel the need to chime in here with my agreement on the subject of letting the players fill in the blanks as far as concept goes. I completely and totally agree on that this games double standards are arbitrary and stupid (yes I know, "double standard" and "arbitrary and stupid" are redundant) and should tossed out with all the other bad decisions made early on, and that the devs should stop worrying their pants off about whether something is right or wrong for either side of the pond. I mean, just to name two really obvious cases, Batman is a heroic Stalker (Well, sometimes anyway) and Magneto is a Villainous controller: at this point we're talking about ATs, which is an even larger issue when it comes to concept than specific powersets.
And besides, if someone wants to make a clown/pirate/werewolf/robot, it's going to be kind of hard to stop them, and with that considered we are already past the point of no return. I mean, why bother nitpicking about the little things like whether Shield would make sense on Stalkers or if Empathy can be villainous when you have clown/pirate/werewolf/robots running around?? You've already lost before you've started.
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Also, as funny as the MGS references to "It's just a box!" are... in all seriousness Shield Defense wouldn't have anything more to do with HOW the stalker hides than Regen or Willpower or Electric Armor currently do (which is to say, nothing at all).
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This is EXACTLY the point. It would have as much to do with how the Stalker hides as any of those when you start to take in to consideration how far concept can be bent and stretched. Regen stalkers could be said to shapeshift to blend in with the enemy, Elec or Energy Aura could bend light around themselves to become invisible (incidentally that is what Conductive Shield's description says it does, after all light is Energy), Willpower could basically do it the same way Ninjitsu does, with intense concentration and skill, or maybe you just look so average that no one notices you (Ok, that's a stretch, but still, THE ADVENTURES OF AVERAGE MAN!). Shield Defense could easily be explained away as some sort of stealth tech or magical invisibility relic as Regen could shapeshifting.
[shameless plug]My theory as to the REAL reason Shield didn't get ported to Stalkers? It's bad enough on Brutes and Scraps, the set would have required a major reworking to be even tolerable on Stalkers. That and AAOs wouldn't play nice with Hide.[/shameless plug]
To be honest that set only has a few issues, and I still think it should have a shield bash cone, but that is a rant for another post in a different thread.
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The comedy of Hide with a shield as the tool is something that can't be iverestimated.
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It makes exactly as much sense as regen hide, or for that matter, the powers that shields get that have nothing to do with shields, such as true grit or aoo.
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Then I want a shield stalker that uses a large potted plant for his shield. He could be named creepy office guy
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Like most words, arrest has several meanings. One just happens to mean to bring to a stop. Both, death and incarceration achieve that. It's up to your character to determine how they "arrest".
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Oh you did NOT just play the dictionary card!
"Arrest" has a specific definition in this context and it is not "to kill". This is the devs' concept of Paragon City we are discussing, remember. It's not the players that are preventing these powerset proliferations. It's the devs. Players do whatever the hell they want, but officially according to canon, the heroes of Paragon City are bound by laws not so different from those of modern day America not to mention comic book ideals of what is and is not heroic. Hosing down a purse-snatcher with a Flamethrower... is not.
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We've already addressed killing so the battle axe argument is moot.
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Bzzzzt!
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Why do stalkers get Electricity but, not shields? I don't know. I would not have proliferated Elec if that was my decision to make. It makes about as much sense as ducking behind a shield or knowing someone else can't see you (willpower).
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Point being that Stalker secondaries do not necessarily HAVE to explain how the Stalker is able to hide. Your Super Reflexes Stalker is free to decide that he's just hiding in the shadows (natural), moving so fast he can't be seen (mutation/science/magic), or just plain switching on his cloaking device (tech). Hide is in the secondary because it had to be put somewhere. If the devs had made it an inherent like Domination, we wouldn't be having this hang-up right now. Really only Ninjitsu, Dark, and Energy have anything resembling built-in explanations, so like I said, the "peek-a-boo" shield idea makes for a funny post, but it's really not a valid argument in the way of preventing Stalkers from having shields.
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I have no problem with gadgetry making you silent or invisible but, a shield is not the best representation of such a devise.
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I can come up with several plausible ways a tech or magic-based shield could conceal you but like I said, it's not necessary. It's not a requirement for current Stalker secondaries and thus not a requirement for any future Stalker secondaries.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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[shameless plug]My theory as to the REAL reason Shield didn't get ported to Stalkers? It's bad enough on Brutes and Scraps, the set would have required a major reworking to be even tolerable on Stalkers. That and AAOs wouldn't play nice with Hide.[/shameless plug]
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Neither does RttC. Porting armors to Stalkers has always involved a little rework. They don't get damage and taunt auras as a general rule, although Dark Armor for Stalkers did retain its fear and stun auras which DO in fact interfere with a Stalker's stealth. So it's been done. Precendent has been set. AOO is not the problem.
The only other potential sticking point is Grant Cover. They could dump Grant Cover for Hide (it has to take the place of something) and modify AOO to remove the taunt and defense debuff auras, perhaps strengthening the damage bonus to compensate or adding a slight self def buff.
And anyone who thinks Shield Charge is a problem, I'll refer them to the Tier 9 in Electric Melee.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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I want my Ninjitsu Scrapper damnit!
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Since it looks like Stalkers will probably never get Shields, I have a feeling Ninjitsu will end up staying unique to them as some sort of compensation.
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The comedy of Hide with a shield as the tool is something that can't be underestimated.
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No one seems to pay any mind when Solid Snake's cardboard box appears out of nowhere. I'm sure they'd pay no attention to the shield leaning against the wall.
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I want my Ninjitsu Scrapper damnit!
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Since it looks like Stalkers will probably never get Shields, I have a feeling Ninjitsu will end up staying unique to them as some sort of compensation.
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The comedy of Hide with a shield as the tool is something that can't be overestimated.
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No one seems to pay any mind when Solid Snake's cardboard box appears out of nowhere. I'm sure they'd pay no attention to the shield leaning against the wall.
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How it would likely work
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I want my Ninjitsu Scrapper damnit!
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Since it looks like Stalkers will probably never get Shields, I have a feeling Ninjitsu will end up staying unique to them as some sort of compensation.
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The comedy of Hide with a shield as the tool is something that can't be underestimated.
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No one seems to pay any mind when Solid Snake's cardboard box appears out of nowhere. I'm sure they'd pay no attention to the shield leaning against the wall.
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Yup. I posted earlier about that. Snake has the whole "obvious" method of hiding down to an art.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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You're missing my point. Why is it only brought up SOMETIMES to deny a proliferation when there are so many examples of existing powers that would seem to break those same rules?
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Can't say I know. I can only imagine it's because there's more than one person working on things (possibly even different people than there were originally) and sometimes the person who's doing stuff at the time doesn't care about concept or has other priorities over concept. If I was in charge of anything related to concept, Brutes and Tanks wouldn't have Dual Blades.
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Now I wish you were in charge. Especually if you tell me Stone Armor stays just with Tanks and Brutes.
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I was imagining more of a jack in the box type manuever. You know pop out of the box, stabby, stabby, dead. Then back in the box.
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