No set proliferations in I15?
By
Akuma_Mishima,
Posted on: 2009-04-29 16:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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And anyone who thinks Shield Charge is a problem, I'll refer them to the Tier 9 in Electric Melee. 
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Which does make it a problem. Two powerful AoE TeleNukes that don't notify? Uh...
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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Neither does RttC. Porting armors to Stalkers has always involved a little rework. They don't get damage and taunt auras as a general rule, although Dark Armor for Stalkers did retain its fear and stun auras which DO in fact interfere with a Stalker's stealth. So it's been done. Precendent has been set. AOO is not the problem.
The only other potential sticking point is Grant Cover. They could dump Grant Cover for Hide (it has to take the place of something) and modify AOO to remove the taunt and defense debuff auras, perhaps strengthening the damage bonus to compensate or adding a slight self def buff.
And anyone who thinks Shield Charge is a problem, I'll refer them to the Tier 9 in Electric Melee.
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Yes, I know that porting armor to stalkers generally requires changing something, but in this case it's a bit more complicated than "swap this out for this." Shields is bad enough on other ATs so I have a feeling it would fold over like a cardboard box on Stalkers, and that is after we figure out what to replace AAO with, and I do say replace since I doubt they would give us a power that grants a buff that scales to mob size without tossing in a Taunt aura. I mean, it's conceivable since it's not a defensive buff as much as an offensive one, but if you want to talk about "setting a precedent" we'd be more likely to get some kind of fast recharging Build Up clone that gives a 50-60% buff in it's place much like Willpower got Reconstruction. Although, I don't doubt that was also partially because HP regen based powers are a little broken on Stalkers because of their low HP.
As for Grant Cover, yeah I could see them dropping that, but then they would have to move the defense debuff resistance into something else and that would cause everyone to whine that their AT has to pick up Grant Cover for the defense debuff resistance. That's not to say it shouldn't be moved out of Grant Cover now, though, I still think it's just dumb to put Defense Debuff resistance in an optional team buff inside a defense based set. But the point is they would be setting themselves up for yet more work and whiney players.
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Which does make it a problem. Two powerful AoE TeleNukes that don't notify? Uh...
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Spines/Fire Scrappers have two build ups and two damage auras that when used together with thier AoEs can kill all the minions and LTs in a spawn in seconds, but because the build ups are on a long recharges it limits how often this is useful. An Elec Melee/Shield Stalker would be about the same, you'd have to either use them together and deal with the long recharge or use one per mob and put yourself at risk after the initial attack. Either way you find yourself attacking normally at some point.
Edited for clarification.
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And anyone who thinks Shield Charge is a problem, I'll refer them to the Tier 9 in Electric Melee.
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Which does make it a problem. Two powerful AoE TeleNukes that don't notify? Uh...
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Uh... they do notify. A Stalker using LR today won't drop out of Hide, but every mob he hits will aggro on him immediately. If he's quick, he can still get his Hide crit following the LR, but he's due one Hide crit anyway at the start of a fight so really, it's not about extra damage or getting away with something an Elec/SD Brute can't already do.
Next?
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Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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And anyone who thinks Shield Charge is a problem, I'll refer them to the Tier 9 in Electric Melee.
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Which does make it a problem. Two powerful AoE TeleNukes that don't notify? Uh...
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Uh... they do notify. A Stalker using LR today won't drop out of Hide, but every mob he hits will aggro on him immediately. If he's quick, he can still get his Hide crit following the LR, but he's due one Hide crit anyway at the start of a fight so really, it's not about extra damage or getting away with something an Elec/SD Brute can't already do.
Next?
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Huh, didn't know they fixed that. The last time I teamed with an Elec Melee Stalker they didn't seem to gain agro from LR, when did they change this? I'm going to have to get my friend to log on his Elec Melee/WP Stalker and test this out, maybe it just doesn't draw enough agro to pull enemies off a Brute.
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And anyone who thinks Shield Charge is a problem, I'll refer them to the Tier 9 in Electric Melee.
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Which does make it a problem. Two powerful AoE TeleNukes that don't notify? Uh...
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Uh... they do notify. A Stalker using LR today won't drop out of Hide, but every mob he hits will aggro on him immediately. If he's quick, he can still get his Hide crit following the LR, but he's due one Hide crit anyway at the start of a fight so really, it's not about extra damage or getting away with something an Elec/SD Brute can't already do.
Next?
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Huh, didn't know they fixed that. The last time I teamed with an Elec Melee Stalker they didn't seem to gain agro from LR, when did they change this? I'm going to have to get my friend to log on his Elec Melee/WP Stalker and test this out, maybe it just doesn't draw enough agro to pull enemies off a Brute.
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That would be because Brute attacks/auras have a Taunt Component.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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QR to the OP:
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
The first announcement of any issue is the one tailored to elicit the "OMG THIS IS SO COOL MUST HAVE NOW!" response. Powerset Proliferation is not the new and shiny, it's the continuation of something already in the game.
Think about i14. How many announcements were made before people knew about the PVP IOs?
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imo, I think you've got it the wrong way.
powerset proliferation would be the new shiny
a few add-ons to AE and two TFs would be the nice extras.
Proof? people begging for new proliferation since i12, and complaining about issues that don't continue it.
personally, I'd be surprised if proliferation and pistols / demons weren't a part of i15 or at least stretch goals. if they aren't, I seem i16 coming out quickly after i15.
two TFs and some AE changes would be imo even weaker than i13
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That would be because Brute attacks/auras have a Taunt Component.
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Why is it everyone automatically assumes everyone else doesn't know anything about this game? Oh, by the way, you forgot to mention how Brutes have a threat rating of 3 against a Stalkers 2.
All of that is irrelevant: Most of my Brutes are NOT speced for Agro Management. Heck, the Brute I'm thinking of is a Stone Melee/Willpower mezzing DPSer who's only AoE is Fault. So when I'm fighting something I can't mezz with Fault (Nemesis, for instance, if the Fakes get their disp bubble up before I can hit them with SS) there is going to be some agro leakage. RTTC is just pitiful for agro control, I really wish they would buff the aura taunt on it.
I'd like to test this out again, but my friend moved his Stalker to Freedom (Don't ask why, because I don't know) and all my Brutes are on Virtue and Infinity. If it was fixed before it went live and not after then it might just be the LR pseudo-pet has very weak agro potential. Normally an AoE attack that does triple digits grabs agro regardless of ATs unless you have a Brute or a Tank Taunt spamming. It's the reason why a Blaster often goes SPLAT if their nuke doesn't kill enough of the spawn.
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imo, I think you've got it the wrong way.
powerset proliferation would be the new shiny
a few add-ons to AE and two TFs would be the nice extras.
Proof? people begging for new proliferation since i12, and complaining about issues that don't continue it.
personally, I'd be surprised if proliferation and pistols / demons weren't a part of i15 or at least stretch goals. if they aren't, I seem i16 coming out quickly after i15.
two TFs and some AE changes would be imo even weaker than i13
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You DO realize Issue 15 isn't really even meant to be a full blown issue, right? We might get something else that's not on the list, but I doubt we will see anything proliferated or any new sets, unless they've had some secret project tucked away since before I14. It's possible, but I wouldn't hold my breath, basicially this is just an issue for them to wave around a big flag that says "Look how long we've been around!"
Also, if you look around the forums at some of the other topics here you should find they've more or less said "Pistols? Demons? What...?" when people asked about them personally. Of coarse there is the standard speculation that they are working on it but not talking about it/admitting to it, but that's all it is, speculation.
You're expecting a full blown issue from something that is meant to just be a quick throw together of stuff that has been in the works for a while, and if people keep this up this might be the last time we see the devs do this. I wouldn't mind more small issues with just a couple things dotted between the bigger ones to keep things fresh over time, but if people start complaining that every issue isn't OMGWTFBBQAWESOMESAUCE we may not see this kind of thing anymore.
I'd be perfectly content with a content heavy issue anyway. Given the sudden explosive growth in the numbers of 50's it might be time to add some more serious end game content. I want my Moonbase TF dammit! 
I want more epic raids rather than Hami and the Ship Raid. GMs are cool and all, but not really epic. I can solo them easy.
And yes, new zones plz.
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You DO realize Issue 15 isn't really even meant to be a full blown issue, right? We might get something else that's not on the list, but I doubt we will see anything proliferated or any new sets, unless they've had some secret project tucked away since before I14. It's possible, but I wouldn't hold my breath, basicially this is just an issue for them to wave around a big flag that says "Look how long we've been around!"
Also, if you look around the forums at some of the other topics here you should find they've more or less said "Pistols? Demons? What...?" when people asked about them personally. Of coarse there is the standard speculation that they are working on it but not talking about it/admitting to it, but that's all it is, speculation.
You're expecting a full blown issue from something that is meant to just be a quick throw together of stuff that has been in the works for a while, and if people keep this up this might be the last time we see the devs do this. I wouldn't mind more small issues with just a couple things dotted between the bigger ones to keep things fresh over time, but if people start complaining that every issue isn't OMGWTFBBQAWESOMESAUCE we may not see this kind of thing anymore.
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i13 was a sub par update and if there's nothing else to i15, it will be sub par as well.
Expecting i15 to add substance isn't irrational considering:
A. i13's non fluff consisted shields and pain dom
B. i14's core feature was nice, but frankly not so great that it can stand entirely by itself imo.
My expectations aren't out of line, I thought i10, i11, and i12 were great. i12 in particular was an issue Positron himself mentioned wouldn't be a "big, impressive issue" and yet I liked that one the best out of the three.
Personally, I think you're expectations are a little low. But you can expect what you want. Trying to dissuade people for having higher, yet entirely reasonable (considering update history) expectations than you is silly.
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Why is it everyone automatically assumes everyone else doesn't know anything about this game? Oh, by the way, you forgot to mention how Brutes have a threat rating of 3 against a Stalkers 2.
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I don't think people are assuming you don't know "anything". They know you're wrong about the aggro and are trying to explain why you saw what you saw. I don't have an Elec myself, but I know how the aggro works with my Ninjitsu's Caltrops. I don't get aggro for dropping them, but anything hit by them will know about me and attack, whether I am still Hidden or not.
But if you really want to see it for yourself, ask in the Stalker forum and I am sure someone will be able to demonstrate it for you in game. There's a Lightning Rod thread going on now that mentions the aggro you take from it. You could ask there.
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Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
[ QUOTE ][LIST][*]The devs Have never promised complete proliferation.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an interview where one of the devs say we won't go two issues without proliferation?
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[ QUOTE ][LIST][*]The devs Have never promised complete proliferation.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an interview where one of the devs say we won't go two issues without proliferation?
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yes there is
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[ QUOTE ][LIST][*]The devs Have never promised complete proliferation.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an interview where one of the devs say we won't go two issues without proliferation?
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yes there is
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Also BaBs (I think) said they were planning on Porting everything but Empathy and Poison. (This was prior to I12)
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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That would be because Brute attacks/auras have a Taunt Component.
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Why is it everyone automatically assumes everyone else doesn't know anything about this game? Oh, by the way, you forgot to mention how Brutes have a threat rating of 3 against a Stalkers 2.
All of that is irrelevant: Most of my Brutes are NOT speced for Agro Management. Heck, the Brute I'm thinking of is a Stone Melee/Willpower mezzing DPSer who's only AoE is Fault. So when I'm fighting something I can't mezz with Fault (Nemesis, for instance, if the Fakes get their disp bubble up before I can hit them with SS) there is going to be some agro leakage. RTTC is just pitiful for agro control, I really wish they would buff the aura taunt on it.
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Uh when did they change the threat rating on Stalkers? Cause when I checked in July last year, they had a Threat Rating of FOUR.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
|
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Uh when did they change the threat rating on Stalkers? Cause when I checked in July last year, they had a Threat Rating of FOUR.
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Around the same time they made other changes to Stalkers. They tweaked them quite a bit at one point in the last year.
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[ QUOTE ][LIST][*]The devs Have never promised complete proliferation.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an interview where one of the devs say we won't go two issues without proliferation?
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yes there is
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Also BaBs (I think) said they were planning on Porting everything but Empathy and Poison. (This was prior to I12)
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When was the last proliferation? Issue 13?
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When was the last proliferation? Issue 13?
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the only proliferation was i12, unless you count pain dom as a proliferation as an altered version of empathy.
personally, I feel a little "miffed" shall we say, simply because proliferation was advertised pre-i12 as something they could do in between issues if they so desired.
You'll get over it, I'm sure. I still have so many characters to play and don't really care if I15 contains 0 proliferation.
I'm jonesing over the new TF/SF for all my 50s. Bring em on!
Castle and the powers team, who have to rebalance each proliferation have been working rather hard on getting the MA AI custom critters into the right area, not too powerful and not too easy.
Outside of Pohsyb and the other actual programmers, they have probably had the most to do with the MA.
I personally would rather they had spent the time they ahve doing that, than examing other proliferations.
Once the MA custom critters are stable, they will again have time to look at proliferations.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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I want my Ninjitsu Scrapper damnit!
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Since it looks like Stalkers will probably never get Shields, I have a feeling Ninjitsu will end up staying unique to them as some sort of compensation.
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I dunno. Shields just don't match sneaky ninja types. I wouldn't expect them to give Ninjitsu to Tanks, but it could suit Scrappers just fine.
It's not like the "this is my unique set!" thing has held up very well. Doms lost all their unique primaries when Controllers stole Plant Control. Stalkers stole Elec, Blasters got Psi. There's not many unique sets left.
I want a Nin Scrapper! 
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Stalkers = ninjas...kinda. Really depends on how you wanna play/define them. Take a rogue for example, in D&D at least, they can hide and sneak in shadows and [censored] but they do lots of damage "out of hide" so to speak by flanking and striking weak points.
Which might be enough to "draw aggro" (from the DM -_-) and while slippery, can't take the punishment a fighter/barb/scalemail wearing [censored] warlock.
SO giving stalkers /elec and possibly /shields could work out in that sense. /ninja /regen /energy etc you could definitately play as the "I have predator cloaking skillz/sneaks" and the rest just as a guy who knows where to hit, and hits hard, just has minimal defenses if hes caught facing down some huge [censored] for too long without backup....and [censored].
Not that I play stalkers anyways, I hate dying a lot first few levels 
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Just in case you missed 'em though....
During CoV Beta, they discovered that the slows and -recharge that are the secondary effect of Ice was interfering with Fury generation. For this reason, Ice was pulled as an option for Brutes. Later during the Beta, they tweaked the way that Fury worked. After they did this, they didn't go back to check how Ice would work with New Fury.
It is the belief among quite a few of us here that Ice would not be a such a disadvantage under New Fury as it was under Old Fury.
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You left out how many other primaries and secondaries include powers that mitigate damage by halting/slowing the enemy's ability to attack, thus reducing fury generation.
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IIRC, that was the reason for New Fury in the first place. They never gave Ice a second chance. Given that there are sets with Stuns, Knockdowns and Fears, -recharge shouldn't be that big an issue, thus the "not such a huge disadvantage under New Fury..."
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I would think, then, that /ice for brutes would largely be a more "tanky" set than a "jump in there and [censored] things up ASAP" sets, uh like /WP or esp /fire.
Yea yea, hinters fury regeneration...I find that teaming with teams that have the right setups hinters my fury generation too; as I grab aggro and usually a few seconds later everything is dead, so I don't really see what would be the big deal aside from soloing. Even then, you'd just give up doing more damage in place of living slightly longer, some people like that play style over others. I say put it out and let people make their own godamn choice whether they want /ice on their brute or not instead of saying "It wont work...probably "
ice brutes would be a heck of a lot more redside tankers than stone brutes are :P
claws/ice brute.....
iwantiwantiwant
Be well, people of CoH.
QR to the OP:
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
The first announcement of any issue is the one tailored to elicit the "OMG THIS IS SO COOL MUST HAVE NOW!" response. Powerset Proliferation is not the new and shiny, it's the continuation of something already in the game.
Think about i14. How many announcements were made before people knew about the PVP IOs?
@Roderick