No set proliferations in I15?

kojirodensetsu · 05-10-2009 06:43 AM

Pain Dom = Empathy

Anyways I would like to see some proliferation sometime as well.

Ars Valde · 05-10-2009 04:06 PM

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Pain Dom = Empathy

Anyways I would like to see some proliferation sometime as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pain Dom = Pain Dom.

Empathy = Empathy.

They are not the same, dont try to act like they are.

Biostem · 05-10-2009 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pain Dom = Empathy

Anyways I would like to see some proliferation sometime as well.

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Pain Dom = Pain Dom.

Empathy = Empathy.

They are not the same, dont try to act like they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Empathy is to Pain Dom as Katana is to Ninja Blade

They are mostly the same, but differ in a few key places.

Villains will not be getting empathy, so don't hold your breath...

Undead_Steve · 05-10-2009 09:01 PM

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Villains will not be getting empathy, so don't hold your breath...

[/ QUOTE ]

And Heroes won't get pain dom!.....hopefully......

Thirty-Seven · 05-10-2009 10:13 PM

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Villains will not be getting empathy, so don't hold your breath...

[/ QUOTE ]
And Heroes won't get pain dom!.....hopefully......

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is very safe to say. Especially when one considers that the Devs took the time to make a "brand new" set just so they didn't have to give Empathy over to Redside.

Hatred666 · 05-11-2009 12:27 AM

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Villains will not be getting empathy, so don't hold your breath...

[/ QUOTE ]
And Heroes won't get pain dom!.....hopefully......

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is very safe to say. Especially when one considers that the Devs took the time to make a "brand new" set just so they didn't have to give Empathy over to Redside.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were to guess at least 1 set per AT getting proliferated it would be the following:

Blaster - Radiation Blast
Controller - Cold Domination
Defender - Thermal Radiation
Scrapper - Energy Melee
Tank- Electric Melee/Armor
Brute - Regeneration
Corruptor - Archery
Dominator - Illusion Control
Mastermind - Sonic Resonance
Stalker - Broadsword

MrHassenpheffer · 05-11-2009 05:54 AM

Tank- Electric Melee/Armor
Brute - Regeneration

<3

Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.

Zem · 05-11-2009 08:26 AM

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Empathy is to Pain Dom as Katana is to Ninja Blade

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Hardly. 7/9 powers are identical in name, description, and effects (except for AT inherent differences) between the two and the 2 powers that are different are an absolute requirement for Stalker primaries, Assassin Strike and Placate.

There is no such requirement for Pain Dom vs. Empathy and yet the two sets are even more different than Ninja Blade and Katana. Significantly different, I'd say. That's not a bad thing, just pointing it out. I don't mind that the sets are different at all, I just don't swallow the b.s. that they HAD to be different for concept reasons.

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Villains will not be getting empathy, so don't hold your breath...

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I'm not, but I have some small hope the devs might dump this ridiculous double standard when considering future proliferations. Genie's out of the bottle already. Heroes have powersets that are decidedly un-heroic, so where is the harm? By not proliferating sets that you now see as un-heroic or not villainous, you're not changing anything or preserving anything about the character of each side.

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

_Laxx_ · 05-11-2009 01:34 PM

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I'm not, but I have some small hope the devs might dump this ridiculous double standard when considering future proliferations. Genie's out of the bottle already. Heroes have powersets that are decidedly un-heroic, so where is the harm? By not proliferating sets that you now see as un-heroic or not villainous, you're not changing anything or preserving anything about the character of each side.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, Pain Domination was made specifically to be the anti-thesis of Empathy. My bet is, when it came to the decision of "do we port Empathy over to villains or not?" they decided that they would probably have to rename the powerset and come up with new names for some of the powers. Empathy, as a name, doesn't sound villainous at all. During this, someone probably decided they should just make an entirely new set that's based on Empathy and give it a villainous spin, thus Pain Domination was born.

It's just as likely that Pain and Empathy will be swapped between sides as it is for it not to be, specifically because we really don't know what they have planned regarding Power Proliferation. While I'm not expecting it to happen anytime soon (especially in the light of the announcement when Pain was released where it was called the "anti-thesis to Empathy"), I'm also not convinced it won't ever happen. Anything can happen, so...

Regarding your claim that heroes have "decidedly unheroic sets", I think you're mistaken. A power is not inherently good or evil -- it's what you do with the power that decides your alignment. Move beyond your character's animations and realize that just because your Axe tanker is swinging down on to the skull of a ...Skull, that it doesn't mean he's cleaving him in half. The axe he uses against common thugs could have a flat edge, he could just be trying to intimidate the thug into surrendering (using the foe's HP bar as a meter to determine when he's given up, for instance), or he may realize that the very system that saves him when he's defeated is used to transport the villain to the Zig upon defeat, so any harm he may inflict is merely temporary as far as the game is concerned. It's all in how you RP it out.

Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage

Zem · 05-11-2009 03:17 PM

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My bet is, when it came to the decision of "do we port Empathy over to villains or not?" they decided that they would probably have to rename the powerset and come up with new names for some of the powers. Empathy, as a name, doesn't sound villainous at all.

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That's no bet. This is their stated reason.

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Regarding your claim that heroes have "decidedly unheroic sets", I think you're mistaken. A power is not inherently good or evil -- it's what you do with the power that decides your alignment.

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Oh I quite agree, but how then do you reconcile this statement with "empathy doesn't sound villainous"? If you can imagine your axe wielder isn't actually splitting the skulls he shouldn't split (like say, a purse-snatcher in Steel Canyon) then I can well imagine a villain who empathizes with other villains.

It's really a paper-thin argument as to why villains didn't get Empathy. Again, if they want to go to all the trouble to create a new powerset, fine. I don't think it's necessary and don't want it to hold up future proliferations. That's my point.

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

_Laxx_ · 05-11-2009 05:08 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
My bet is, when it came to the decision of "do we port Empathy over to villains or not?" they decided that they would probably have to rename the powerset and come up with new names for some of the powers. Empathy, as a name, doesn't sound villainous at all.

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That's no bet. This is their stated reason.

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Regarding your claim that heroes have "decidedly unheroic sets", I think you're mistaken. A power is not inherently good or evil -- it's what you do with the power that decides your alignment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I quite agree, but how then do you reconcile this statement with "empathy doesn't sound villainous"? If you can imagine your axe wielder isn't actually splitting the skulls he shouldn't split (like say, a purse-snatcher in Steel Canyon) then I can well imagine a villain who empathizes with other villains.

It's really a paper-thin argument as to why villains didn't get Empathy. Again, if they want to go to all the trouble to create a new powerset, fine. I don't think it's necessary and don't want it to hold up future proliferations. That's my point.

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I said Empathy, as a name, doesn't sound villainous. I was very careful with my wording because of my next point regarding power origin and "apparent" alignment. The powers in Empathy aren't inherently good or evil; however, the word "empathy" tends to invoke a sense of goodness or caring, and while the powers contained within the set don't necessarily apply to either, the over-arcing powerset name does.

Many of the powers in Pain Domination are either identical in function or design to Empathy with minor tweaks. The healing auras are the same but with different names. Absorb Pain and Share Pain are the same, but Share Pain gives the caster a buff for using it, etc. They both have their truly unique powers, though, most notably Pain's HoT aura and it's lack of a Recovery Aura, as well as it's PBAoE buff that's "similar" to Fortitude. At least, I think that's supposed to be the analog power -- I'll have to look that one up.

Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage

Zem · 05-11-2009 05:52 PM

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I said Empathy, as a name, doesn't sound villainous.

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Actually, the meaning of the word is neutral if you bother to look it up. You're confusing it with 'sympathy'. But even that aside, "doesn't sound villainous" is still a double-standard. 'Dark Miasma' hardly evokes anything good. Miasma is a word used to describe vaporous pollution or disease. And there are many examples of power names such as Eviscerate or Disembowel that sound more like means of torture than tools for fighting crime.

Again, don't get me wrong. *I* don't have a problem with these names, just as I do not have a problem with the name "Empathy" or "Poison". I say leave it up to the player to justify or roleplay the actual powers as some different thing entirely (if they even care about such things as concept).

I am just pointing out that "doesn't sound villainous" is most definitely a double-standard to use when it has not been applied to powers that heroes have access to. Heck, even Pain Dom itself has "Soothing Aura". Isn't that pleasant?

What's in a name?

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

_Laxx_ · 05-11-2009 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I said Empathy, as a name, doesn't sound villainous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the meaning of the word is neutral if you bother to look it up. You're confusing it with 'sympathy'. But even that aside, "doesn't sound villainous" is still a double-standard. 'Dark Miasma' hardly evokes anything good. Miasma is a word used to describe vaporous pollution or disease. And there are many examples of power names such as Eviscerate or Disembowel that sound more like means of torture than tools for fighting crime.

Again, don't get me wrong. *I* don't have a problem with these names, just as I do not have a problem with the name "Empathy" or "Poison". I say leave it up to the player to justify or roleplay the actual powers as some different thing entirely (if they even care about such things as concept).

I am just pointing out that "doesn't sound villainous" is most definitely a double-standard to use when it has not been applied to powers that heroes have access to. Heck, even Pain Dom itself has "Soothing Aura". Isn't that pleasant?

What's in a name?

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If you read the rest of my post, you'd see that I mentioned empathy tends to invoke a "sense of goodness or caring", which is why it doesn't "sound villainous". I'm all for just letting people RP what they want and I've never accepted the "doesn't sound villainous" excuse. However, I also realize that if wasn't for the way empathy is typically portrayed, Pain Domination would likely not exist. Whether or not that's a bonus or a negative is up for interpretation.

I'd like to see all sets (or tweaks of certain sets) to be passed to every AT that could theoretically use it, but I also know that can take as much time as making entirely new sets would. In my cursory glance around the game and the forums, it seems more people would prefer an entirely new set than simply "existing set, version 2".

I don't think it's a double-standard, at least not insofar as the developer's reasoning. Most of the time, the "not heroic" or "not villainous" is bandied about by the players themselves in an attempt to defend/counter their reasoning behind the desire to see/not see certain sets proliferated. The only standard I think the devs go by anymore is trying to keep a bit of "uniqueness" to certain ATs by limiting or plain not allowing certain sets to be proliferated. How long that will last remains to be seen.

Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage

Zem · 05-11-2009 07:13 PM

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I don't think it's a double-standard, at least not insofar as the developer's reasoning. Most of the time, the "not heroic" or "not villainous" is bandied about by the players themselves in an attempt to defend/counter their reasoning behind the desire to see/not see certain sets proliferated.

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I can't seem to search up the posts discussing why villains weren't getting Empathy directly, so anyone else feel free to prove me wrong but my *recollection* of those discussions is that the devs came right out and said they were not porting Empathy to Villains because they didn't consider it villainous. Hence the need to make a "Villainous version of Empathy", as Positron called it.

It wasn't about uniqueness, though that is also a worthy goal. Same reason given for Poison not going to heroes. Not heroic. Hence... a double-standard. This standard is not applied to existing sets like Dark Miasma and in the case of Empathy, as I've pointed out, isn't even accurate.

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

Oedipus_Tex · 05-12-2009 05:37 AM

I don't see any point in locking certain sets to an archetype. It doesn't promote uniqueness to restrict them, because a character doesn't have access to all of the possible powers available to their archetype anyway. If I'm playing a Storm Defender it makes me not at all more unique that villains can't use Empathy, because I can't either.

Aura_Familia · 05-12-2009 10:11 AM

Of course with the recently announced Going Rogue, restrictions are about to come off.

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

Bill Z Bubba · 05-12-2009 10:58 AM

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Of course with the recently announced Going Rogue, restrictions are about to come off.

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Brutes still won't have claws and therefore: Fail. Fix that an it's all win!

Be well, people of CoH.

Aura_Familia · 05-12-2009 11:41 AM

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Of course with the recently announced Going Rogue, restrictions are about to come off.

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Brutes still won't have claws and therefore: Fail. Fix that an it's all win!

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Yes brutes won't have claws . . . for now.

I agree this doesn't stop proliferation that's needed.

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

Virtual_Fighter · 05-12-2009 01:09 PM

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Of course with the recently announced Going Rogue, restrictions are about to come off.

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So...

What were you all discussing about Empathy and Pain Domination?

They might as well proliferate everything that doesn't fit conceptually now, right? Since soon it appears we'll be seeing Empathy Defender letting out their evil side, what's the point in keeping Pain Domination from Defenders or Empathy from Corruptors? If any Empathy Defender is capable of being evil...sorta throws out the whole argument doesn't it?

Zem · 05-12-2009 02:03 PM

Well, funny enough, the point NOW would be... why bother? They've already gone to the trouble of creating Pain Dom. At this point, why NOT keep Empathy as a blueside AT exclusive and vice-versa Empathy?

Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer

Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!

Bill Z Bubba · 05-12-2009 02:27 PM

And with the rogue expansion, we'll get the superduperinthemiddle AT that gets to do truly stupid things like make an...

EMPATHY/PAIN DOMINATION CORFENDERDERRUPTOR!

Be well, people of CoH.

Golden_Pie · 05-12-2009 03:28 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
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Villains will not be getting empathy, so don't hold your breath...

[/ QUOTE ]
And Heroes won't get pain dom!.....hopefully......

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is very safe to say. Especially when one considers that the Devs took the time to make a "brand new" set just so they didn't have to give Empathy over to Redside.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were to guess at least 1 set per AT getting proliferated it would be the following:

Blaster - Radiation Blast
Controller - Cold Domination
Defender - Thermal Radiation
Scrapper - Energy Melee
Tank- Electric Melee/Armor
Brute - Regeneration
Corruptor - Archery
Dominator - Illusion Control
Mastermind - Sonic Resonance
Stalker - Broadsword

[/ QUOTE ]

Blaster - Radiation Blast
Controller - Cold Domination
Defender - Thermal Radiation
Scrapper - Electric Melee/Aura
Tank- EA
Brute - Ice Armor then Regeneration
Corruptor - Archery/TA
Dominator - Illusion Control
Mastermind - Kinetics
Stalker - Fire Melee

Hatred666 · 05-16-2009 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villains will not be getting empathy, so don't hold your breath...

[/ QUOTE ]
And Heroes won't get pain dom!.....hopefully......

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is very safe to say. Especially when one considers that the Devs took the time to make a "brand new" set just so they didn't have to give Empathy over to Redside.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were to guess at least 1 set per AT getting proliferated it would be the following:

Blaster - Radiation Blast
Controller - Cold Domination
Defender - Thermal Radiation
Scrapper - Energy Melee
Tank- Electric Melee/Armor
Brute - Regeneration
Corruptor - Archery
Dominator - Illusion Control
Mastermind - Sonic Resonance
Stalker - Broadsword

[/ QUOTE ]

Blaster - Radiation Blast
Controller - Cold Domination
Defender - Thermal Radiation
Scrapper - Electric Melee/Aura
Tank- EA
Brute - Ice Armor then Regeneration
Corruptor - Archery/TA
Dominator - Illusion Control
Mastermind - Kinetics
Stalker - Fire Melee

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot about kinetics. I'll give you that. Stalkers, I still think they would get broadsword before fiery melee.