MA cliches: What to avoid in your new Arc.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-04-22 06:15 in Mission Architect
I find it entertaining that everyone here, huffiness or not, is discussing such "better story building" topics as plot devices, content, setting, character (overused or not), Aristotle and Shakespeare.
While in reality, the only story type being asked for (or ran) in AE involves a completely unrelated element of great drama and play writing, known in most literary circles simply as
Farm.
A point that is maybe not quite as funny as a good Christopher Reeve joke
but still pretty damn funny.
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Humor Arcs - We get it. Super powers versus fruit.
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Actually... if by "We" you mean me... I don't... at all.
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While in reality, the only story type being asked for (or ran) in AE involves a completely unrelated element of great drama and play writing, known in most literary circles simply as
Farm.
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"Only"?
Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue
Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~
<QR>
So I guess my contact turning into an ally in a later mission is a good thing? But how do I let the people that play my arc know that the villains and heroes I use are created from whole clothe and not from my character list? Will people just assume that Mocker and Manta-Man are mine and one-star me? Have I fallen into a reverse creativity trap?
Ahhhh the angst of a starving artist. 
My 50s:
Prime Minister MA/SR Scrap - Protector
Captain Hit-Guy DM/Reg Scrap - Freedom
Prime-Minister ILL/TA Troller - Freedom
Ultimate Minister Inv/SS Tanker - Freedom
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While in reality, the only story type being asked for (or ran) in AE involves a completely unrelated element of great drama and play writing, known in most literary circles simply as
Farm.
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"Only"?
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I've been harassing anyone on Victory Badges that tries to start a TF with "He's lying! It's a TRICK! I have it on good authority from the official boards that NO ONE is doing anything but MA farms!!!" 
Dec out.
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... But how do I let the people that play my arc know that the villains and heroes I use are created from whole clothe and not from my character list? Will people just assume that Mocker and Manta-Man are mine and one-star me? Have I fallen into a reverse creativity trap?
Ahhhh the angst of a starving artist.
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Simple, make sure you are letting the player be the hero of the story. What I personally skip are variations of:
"You will find out about how cool SuperMegaKent-El is and how he fell to earth in a rooftop garden. Then you can help him stop his arch-nemesis JakeIsABigFatJerk."
Actually, I skip anything that isn't level 42 with MEOW in the title or description.
Ah well not to worry then, since the player is saving Manta-Man from Mocker 
. Thanks.
My 50s:
Prime Minister MA/SR Scrap - Protector
Captain Hit-Guy DM/Reg Scrap - Freedom
Prime-Minister ILL/TA Troller - Freedom
Ultimate Minister Inv/SS Tanker - Freedom
Really, when you get right down to it, with as many people submitting arcs as there are everything will seem to be done to death.
A limited map set, limited destructable items.. limited power sets... limited file size.. it is the nature of the beast. They can only give us so much to work with. So saying that there are things that are done to death, while true, doesn't really matter. Limits are limits, you can push them but you can't go beyond them.
HOW we work with it is entirely up to each of us. I just finished my first arc the other day after numerous... and I mean numerous edits and revamps. The players I asked to help test it enjoyed what I had written but each of them had feedback I took into account when I next edited it.
What I've found is that it doesn't matter so much what the plot is or the villains are.. what matters is if it is fun for the people playing it. Does it convene the story YOU want to tell them. Did they enjoy the journey to the end of the story.. was it really the end of the story and did you get that across to the player?
That is what reviews and feedback are for and, in the end, is the only true measure of your success with the MA. Write what you enjoy but embrace peoples feedback to make it better and you will do well no matter how "done to death" someone might think it is.
I've been working on two interlacing Arcs, one villian one hero. In the Villian arc, you do typical villian things for the contact.. and the hero arc you do typically hero things.. like try to stop what's happening in the Villian arc.
The Villian Contact is the main bad guy of the hero arc.. and the Hero contact will be a boss in the Villian arc.. which is the point where the hero arc picks up..
And.. the contacts are my characters.. the stories don't glorify them as the greatest characters ever.. just characters I happen to like writing plots about..
My third arc will be about ninja fruit versus pirate robots..
I write my characters as contacts and bosses because those are the ones I'm most familiar with. Those are the characters that I know how they'd act in any given situation and can more easily find their voice. I've always had something of an aversion to using other people's characters, including canon characters, because of this very reason.
They're not *my* characters and I don't have a very good grip on them, their backgrounds, their stories, or their voice, and therefore will quite likely get my portrayal of them wrong.
Current Published Arcs
#1 "Too Drunk to be Alcoholic" Arc #48942
#2 "To Slay Sleeping Dragons" Arc #111486
#3 "Stop Calling Me"
Enough about ninjas.. I'm at the point now I flat out avoid anything with the word "ninja" in the title, description, or mission brief.
Mary Sues where you fight the writer's character and those of their friends all set on extreme, particularly when surrounded by annoying minions (thugs with gang army come to mind). I can handle learning about a character's origin, saving their SG, playing alongside them as long as I'm the star of the show. Showing up to be pummeled to the ground by Ninjitsu set on extreme or fighting the SG's Thug minions with Gang Army every 5' in a cave is not cool.
Heroic arcs that have the player "kill".
Any arc that treats the player as too stupid to catch on to what the contact is doing.
Any arc with a mission that is written to make the players fail. There's no excuse for this in my book. It's a waste of time.
And for goodness sake, playtest a few times before hitting publish!
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
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Really, when you get right down to it, with as many people submitting arcs as there are everything will seem to be done to death.
A limited map set, limited destructable items.. limited power sets... limited file size.. it is the nature of the beast. They can only give us so much to work with. So saying that there are things that are done to death, while true, doesn't really matter. Limits are limits, you can push them but you can't go beyond them.
HOW we work with it is entirely up to each of us. I just finished my first arc the other day after numerous... and I mean numerous edits and revamps. The players I asked to help test it enjoyed what I had written but each of them had feedback I took into account when I next edited it.
What I've found is that it doesn't matter so much what the plot is or the villains are.. what matters is if it is fun for the people playing it. Does it convene the story YOU want to tell them. Did they enjoy the journey to the end of the story.. was it really the end of the story and did you get that across to the player?
That is what reviews and feedback are for and, in the end, is the only true measure of your success with the MA. Write what you enjoy but embrace peoples feedback to make it better and you will do well no matter how "done to death" someone might think it is.
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This makes far too much sense, I'd rather be passing self-satisfied judgement on people for writing MA arcs that contain elements I don't like.
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Really, when you get right down to it, with as many people submitting arcs as there are everything will seem to be done to death.
[/ QUOTE ]Nonsense.
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Really, when you get right down to it, with as many people submitting arcs as there are everything will seem to be done to death.
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Agreed and the important part is will "seem" to be done to death. Honeymooners, Flintstones, King of Queens etc, etc. Many comedies done around this idea. Many successful, many not.
For me, what makes it enjoyable is the way the subject matter is handled.
Write a story. Have fun with the system. Lot of good tips out there on style, how to balance an arc, flow and what not. Subject matter/storyline be it humor or not is so subjective and is so at the heart of what a person is writing, it is extremly hard to critique. As dififcult as writing it.
"It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about it."
Roger Ebert
I was going to make a thread about MA Tropes when I pulled up this one from a couple days ago...good reading in here.
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...I've found is that it doesn't matter so much what the plot is or the villains are.. what matters is if it is fun for the people playing it. Does it convene the story YOU want to tell them. Did they enjoy the journey to the end of the story.. was it really the end of the story and did you get that across to the player?
[/ QUOTE ] -- Dark Aspect
Great advice, and sums up my experience as well.
As for the plot in my arc well, forgive me, it's a "Help Azuria..." story. It seemed like a good starting device for convincing someone to go out and get involved in something. I had in mind a vague lower level feel for the arc, she was at the top of the list for contacts, it seemed like a natural fit. Just looking at her made me nostalgic for all those silly missions she hands out, looking for priceless junk, only to have it promptly lost or stolen again.
So there are heaps of "Help Azuria..." missions now, it's become a CoH trope. It got me wondering how many other lore or canon derived tropes there are for CoH/CoV.
"It's a Nemesis plot." might be the other obvious one.
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"It's a Nemesis plot." might be the other obvious one.
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Funny thing is that I haven't seen a lot of Nemesis plots since MA went live, or a lot of Nemesis at all. People are probably just sick of him.
Wait, didn't Venture say somewhere we shouldn't use nemesis? I can't recall..
So..do we have a consolidated list yet? o.o If we do maybe they should post it in the help thread so people know what to use and not to use, I think that could save alot of trouble and anger from new ma arc makers...
Regards,
-C.A.
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I've so far published one and am working on a couple other arcs that happen to involve some of my characters. I don't think this is a bad thing in and of itself. I don't include my characters because they're my characters. I include my characters because I think they either have, or can contribute to, a story worth telling. I don't consider that vanity any more than I consider it vanity for any other author to write a story about characters he created.
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If I write an arc in which the player interacts with a super-hero, whether as a contact, an ally, or an enemy, then yes I'll use on of my own. I like it when other people do the same. The idea that you might just see someone flying around Paragon that you interacted with in the MA is a cool one.
Playing a story about your toons, though (and by "your" I do not mean the person I quoted, it's a generic "your") doesn't interest me. I don't know your toon, don't care about your toon, and no matter how cool his origin may be it's not anything I really want to hear.
If you're going to tell a story about your character, you have to not let the player know that is what the story is about, so the story has to be able to be adapted to anyone.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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I've so far published one and am working on a couple other arcs that happen to involve some of my characters. I don't think this is a bad thing in and of itself. I don't include my characters because they're my characters. I include my characters because I think they either have, or can contribute to, a story worth telling. I don't consider that vanity any more than I consider it vanity for any other author to write a story about characters he created.
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If I write an arc in which the player interacts with a super-hero, whether as a contact, an ally, or an enemy, then yes I'll use on of my own. I like it when other people do the same. The idea that you might just see someone flying around Paragon that you interacted with in the MA is a cool one.
Playing a story about your toons, though (and by "your" I do not mean the person I quoted, it's a generic "your") doesn't interest me. I don't know your toon, don't care about your toon, and no matter how cool his origin may be it's not anything I really want to hear.
If you're going to tell a story about your character, you have to not let the player know that is what the story is about, so the story has to be able to be adapted to anyone.
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I'm not entirely sure how anyone makes a good story thats an origin story in this medium. No matter how much lipstick you put on it it seems to boil down to "Go back and live my story! It's kewl!"
Now, I originally thought that putting your own characters into a story was a decent idea until Venture came and told me otherwise. He cleared up a few things I had apparently been misunderstanding. It didn't matter how I used them, be it an origin story, a moment in the story where you bump into them and they help you, they are OOC put in as a helper against a tough enemy group or av, it's not appropriate. It's called mary sue, and idiot ball, if I recall. I knew neither of these prior to writing my arcs, but thanks to words and somewhat blunt demands, I began to understand what was wrong with using customer critters that are either mine or the supergroup I'm with. It's simply wrong and not appropriate.
I even started making one for one of my characters, but morphed it into something else entirely, so working with a existing issue where you are putting your characters in isn't too bad either ^_^
-C.A.
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Now, I originally thought that putting your own characters into a story was a decent idea until Venture came and told me otherwise. He cleared up a few things I had apparently been misunderstanding. It didn't matter how I used them, be it an origin story, a moment in the story where you bump into them and they help you, they are OOC put in as a helper against a tough enemy group or av, it's not appropriate. It's called mary sue, and idiot ball, if I recall. I knew neither of these prior to writing my arcs, but thanks to words and somewhat blunt demands, I began to understand what was wrong with using customer critters that are either mine or the supergroup I'm with. It's simply wrong and not appropriate.
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If in the course of a story you are to fight another costumed super-hero of the B-class that player heroes are, and instead of just making one up I use one of mine, then it is not in any way inappropriate. If I put in one of my toons as an AV/EB, then it's a form of Mary Sue.
The fact is, if I put a super-hero named Candlefrost in an arc, the player has no clue if that is a character of mine or one I made up for the arc. They're going to assume whatever they want to assume.
While I enjoy reading Venture's reviews, Venture's opinions are not all the best to follow...unless your main concern is your arc pleasing Venture.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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If in the course of a story you are to fight another costumed super-hero of the B-class that player heroes are, and instead of just making one up I use one of mine, then it is not in any way inappropriate. If I put in one of my toons as an AV/EB, then it's a form of Mary Sue.
The fact is, if I put a super-hero named Candlefrost in an arc, the player has no clue if that is a character of mine or one I made up for the arc. They're going to assume whatever they want to assume.
While I enjoy reading Venture's reviews, Venture's opinions are not all the best to follow...unless your main concern is your arc pleasing Venture.
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An interesting point. Pleasing venture shouldn't be what your out to do, but staying within his guidelines should be?
-C.A
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An interesting point. Pleasing venture shouldn't be what your out to do, but staying within his guidelines should be?
-C.A
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ummmm....no. He has some good advice and some bad advice. What solely constitutes which advice he gives is good and which is bad is whether or not I agree with him. Which is something almost every player of an MA mission can say as well.
So, use his guidelines if you agree with them, otherwise take what works for you and discard the rest. Granted that I haven't checked today, but my position as Emperor of the World has not been taken by Venture yet.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
From this weekend, I have to add one:
Tossing in Nemesis minions for no apparent reason because "He's Nemesis, it's probably some sort of plot, he doesn't have to explain himself".
I swear half of the arcs I ran had me fighting Nemesis at some point, and in none of the cases did the author try to make sense of his motivations at all. It's just "Nemesis feels like taking over Atlas park today" or "Nemesis wants to fight my custom group".
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For a brief few shining moments, I was dead excited about writing my own missions...until I came to the Forum and found that apparently I was one of the stupid, banal, unwashed masses.
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There are three general possibilities:
You will write a bad arc - but you can through work add and refine it so that it becomes a good arc.
You will write a good arc - but it will have a bunch of bad stuff in it, suffocating the good. You can edit it so that the good remains.
You will have good stuff and bad stuff and need to edit, add, and refine to make it a good arc.
The key to all of these is getting feedback and being willing to alter your arc so that it improves.