MA cliches: What to avoid in your new Arc.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-04-22 06:15 in Mission Architect
It's a fundamental problem with Nemesis. He's a super-genius, but your average writer is not. There are three solutions to the problem:
1. Spend a LOT of time thinking through your arc, trying to get into Nemesis's mind and working out subtle plot threads. Preferably you should consult with a few people to help hammer out the plot threads in your arc. This is by far the least popular option.
2. Suddenly make everybody else retarded so Nemesis looks smart in comparison. This is the most common "Comic Book" solution, as Batman frequently becomes a retard when fighting the Joker, and Richard Reed is often reduced to an imbecile whenever Dr. Doom is up to something. The Devs unfortunately use this solution a lot.
3. Just say "It's a Nemesis thing, don't try to understand". This is the MA favorite. It's also the easiest since you don't have to think at all. Just select "Nemesis" from the mob drop down list, say "Oh no, Nemesis is back!" in the text, and you're done.
Following Venture's advice is a good way to get a good review from Venture. No guarantees, of course.
I think it's more important to identify what you consider good story elements objectively, then weave those elements together in a way that pleases you.
By "objectively", I mean, would this story still be good if you were playing it and had never heard of any of the characters before?
Be sure the end result pleases YOU. It doesn't matter how many glowing reviews, stars, or badges I get if I don't enjoy playing through the story myelf or feel that it is my own work.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I've so far published one and am working on a couple other arcs that happen to involve some of my characters. I don't think this is a bad thing in and of itself. I don't include my characters because they're my characters. I include my characters because I think they either have, or can contribute to, a story worth telling. I don't consider that vanity any more than I consider it vanity for any other author to write a story about characters he created.
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If I write an arc in which the player interacts with a super-hero, whether as a contact, an ally, or an enemy, then yes I'll use on of my own. I like it when other people do the same. The idea that you might just see someone flying around Paragon that you interacted with in the MA is a cool one.
Playing a story about your toons, though (and by "your" I do not mean the person I quoted, it's a generic "your") doesn't interest me. I don't know your toon, don't care about your toon, and no matter how cool his origin may be it's not anything I really want to hear.
If you're going to tell a story about your character, you have to not let the player know that is what the story is about, so the story has to be able to be adapted to anyone.
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I'm not entirely sure how anyone makes a good story thats an origin story in this medium. No matter how much lipstick you put on it it seems to boil down to "Go back and live my story! It's kewl!"
Now, I originally thought that putting your own characters into a story was a decent idea until Venture came and told me otherwise. He cleared up a few things I had apparently been misunderstanding. It didn't matter how I used them, be it an origin story, a moment in the story where you bump into them and they help you, they are OOC put in as a helper against a tough enemy group or av, it's not appropriate. It's called mary sue, and idiot ball, if I recall. I knew neither of these prior to writing my arcs, but thanks to words and somewhat blunt demands, I began to understand what was wrong with using customer critters that are either mine or the supergroup I'm with. It's simply wrong and not appropriate. 
I even started making one for one of my characters, but morphed it into something else entirely, so working with a existing issue where you are putting your characters in isn't too bad either ^_^
-C.A.
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I started out the arc I've been working on as a birthday present for my husband. One of the allies you find is his main. Now I have been told that makes me wrong and inappropriate. Spiffy!
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Following Venture's advice is a good way to get a good review from Venture. No guarantees, of course.
I think it's more important to identify what you consider good story elements objectively, then weave those elements together in a way that pleases you.
By "objectively", I mean, would this story still be good if you were playing it and had never heard of any of the characters before?
Be sure the end result pleases YOU. It doesn't matter how many glowing reviews, stars, or badges I get if I don't enjoy playing through the story myelf or feel that it is my own work.
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Thanks for this Kitsune9tails. I think I'll be making the people I want play it happy, which is what I intended to do.
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I started out the arc I've been working on as a birthday present for my husband. One of the allies you find is his main. Now I have been told that makes me wrong and inappropriate. Spiffy!
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I was as surprised as you were :/ I really wished they'd given us guidelines prior to this...
-C.A.
Where is it said that I cannot do this? I mean, times are tough and I thought it was a sweet idea.
The best I can gather from the advice of Venture, mainly, is that a term called mary sueism (if thats not the term, please help! ^^)
From what I've figured so far, it means that using your own, your friends or more obscurly, anyone's avatar/player in your arc, as either a contact or a npc (friend or foe) is a tactic of writting known as Mary sue. I had a couple of arcs that I had venture review (I had no idea who he was at the time! O_O in retrospect it's kinda like asking robert ebert to look at your student film :P) and he was unhappy at alot of usage of my characters, most if not all was in the negative light. He started the review revolution, and Positron even believes him to be doing a good job. Based on both of those and other supporting facts, including that no one really dislikes venture or expresses his stances are incorrect, lead me to believe that he very well might be our sliderule in the community on whats right and wrong in a MA.
If I recall correctly testing an arc, a non published arc, is fine to use whatever, but a published arc is fair game, and in good taste, only certain things should be followed if it's submitted for public consumption? I'm a bit hazy right now on the details i've been up too long...
Regards,
-C.A.
He's not affiliated with me. That's a real karmic exchange, considering my avatar....
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
He can't play it without me if it's not published. Thanks for the info. Have a nice day.
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He's not affiliated with me. That's a real karmic exchange, considering my avatar....
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Wait..did I do something wrong? x_x
I'm massively guilty of author insertion into my story arcs, but I don't feel that inserting your character into your story automatically makes her a "Mary Sue".
I try to follow these rules when inserting one of my characters:
* It has to make sense in terms of the story for the character to appear.
* Any character I insert is an NPC, and the NPC should not outshine the player, who is, after all, the protagonist of the story.
I feel that if you follow these rules, or something similar, you can keep your character from being too "Mary Sue".
@PW - Police Woman (50 AR/dev blaster on Liberty)
TALOS - PW war journal - alternate contact tree using MA story arcs
=VICE= "Give me Liberty, or give me debt!"
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From what I've figured so far, it means that using your own, your friends or more obscurly, anyone's avatar/player in your arc, as either a contact or a npc (friend or foe) is a tactic of writting known as Mary sue. I had a couple of arcs that I had venture review (I had no idea who he was at the time! O_O in retrospect it's kinda like asking robert ebert to look at your student film :P) and he was unhappy at alot of usage of my characters, most if not all was in the negative light. He started the review revolution, and Positron even believes him to be doing a good job. Based on both of those and other supporting facts, including that no one really dislikes venture or expresses his stances are incorrect, lead me to believe that he very well might be our sliderule in the community on whats right and wrong in a MA.
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"Mary Sues" are just unrealistically great/amazing/powerful/beautiful/likable characters with no discernible flaws. It doesn't have to be the author's own character, though that happens a lot.
The practice of self-insert predates the MA by a long time and is a (bad) fanfiction convention in general. It doesn't mean one of the author's characters so much as it means a character that represents the author or embodies their personality and beliefs.
In the MA there's nothing inherently wrong with using one of your premade characters. Just ask yourself these questions:
1) Is my character there to color the story, or is he there to kick [censored], impress the player and generally make the player a passive participant?
2) Is the story about the player and how they saved the day, or is it just dragging the player on rails through a story about my character?
You can use your own characters. Just don't make them hijack the story or be show-stealing badasses that outshine the player.
In my arc Time and Time Again, I use a character I made and one a friend made, because the way we developed their back story, about time traveling WW2 scientists, made them fit nicely in the plot. To make sure I didn't take agency away from the player, I made them optional rescues and made them boss difficulty only. (I'd have gone down to lieutenant if the map didn't have two pretty difficult enemy encounters.) You can beat the mission without ever saving either of them, and while they're tied to your story, it's only in that your interests and theirs intersect. After that encounter, you won't see them again, and the big finale mission is for YOU, the player, to savor.
Add this to the list.
*Avoid vowels. They are so cliche, showing up all the time.
*Don't have any characters. Seriously, if I see so much as a custom boss name I will 1 star.
Well I will say that my arc is about my character but not really about my character.....
In that it's not an origin story, you only meet him as a contact (with an older looking appearance so a different outfit than any of my PNC costume's) and you do everything, he just asks for help (I mean it's implied that he is doing other things, like getting the things you need to work, work and he's level 50, the obs your fighting won't give him anything and he has the infamy (money) to pay someone else to help him)
To this whole Mary Sue thing, that you arent suppose to use your characters as NPCs or contacts, I say this: [censored] that noise.
* The Devs have been doing it for years: Statesman started out life as a Champions character. If they can do it, then why can't I?
* Why should we be restricted to just the same boring old contacts and bad guys? "Oh geeze, it's Azura. What did she lose this time?"
* It provides continuity. Great Beyond has running around, thwarting the villians and saving the city for five years now - why wouldnt she have show up, handing out the odd mission here or there? (She's in story arc #143710 - try it today!)
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If they can do it, then why can't I?
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Having your character show up in some capacity is not, in and of itself, a Mary Sue.
Having your character show up and take the spotlight away from the player is a Mary Sue.
Spending the story telling the player how wonderful, powerful, and fearsome your character is and how he could just do the whole arc himself except that he needs a player to actually play the arc, is a Mary Sue. (Nothing quite like playing a mission and listening to the enemies ramble on about just how scary the NPC ally is.)
Having your character do all of the important work while the player does all of the grunt work is a Mary Sue.
There are other variations. The primary things to ask yourself:
What purpose does this self-insertion serve?
Who is this story really about?
Would the story suffer or be substantially different if a nameless NPC replaced your character, or if your character's role was deleted entirely?
Who has the spotlight?
If you're making your character the star or a co-star, then you're probably making a Mary Sue story.
Having your character act as a mission contact alone is PROBABLY NOT a Mary Sue situation but it depends on the writing. Just make sure you know who the star of the story is.
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If they can do it, then why can't I?
[/ QUOTE ]Precedence is not justification.
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That's not an answer.
Why is it a bad thing to have my character hand out a mission, something she's not suited to deal with? Or got in over her head and needs rescuing? Or has a problem that she cant handle that she has to bring in an outside consultant?
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If they can do it, then why can't I?
[/ QUOTE ]Precedence is not justification.
[/ QUOTE ]That's not an answer.
[/ QUOTE ]Um, yes it is. Just because someone else can do something does not mean you can.
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If they can do it, then why can't I?
[/ QUOTE ]Precedence is not justification.
[/ QUOTE ]That's not an answer.
[/ QUOTE ]Um, yes it is. Just because someone else can do something does not mean you can.
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It also doesn't mean you can't!
Ah-HA!
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If they can do it, then why can't I?
[/ QUOTE ]Precedence is not justification.
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Unless you're talking about the legal system...but that's a bunch of rubbish anyways.
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Wait, didn't Venture say somewhere we shouldn't use nemesis? I can't recall..
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He also hates it when you insert your own characters into the story yet does it himself in one of his arcs. Like anything his advice is to be taken with a grain of salt.
The least sensible complaint he ever made to me was that a +2 version of a custom boss of mine was kicking his [censored] too much while he was soloing. If you're soloing at that difficulty level then you should expect some, I dunno, difficulty.
I had been feeling shunned because I told it was "wrong" and "not appropriate" to have one of my husband's alts be a ally in one part of my arc, then other folks seemed to rally 'round the cause.
I've won awards on other sites for my GM storytelling, have a BA in Literature and Culture, and read Homer for enjoyment. I know hack story telling when I see it. However, when nice ladies would come up to buy "romance" novels from my book shop, I would not tell them not to read that trash, but rather be happy that they were reading at all.
I will finish my story, publish it with a disclaimer, then pull it when I feel everyone who I think gives a toss has played it.
Have fun.
Eh, I used and will continue to use one of my character's civilian persona as contact for any extra-dimensional arcs I make. I know her voice, so it's easy to write dialogue in it, and she works at Portal Corp. making her an ideal contact in her civilian life.
I created a teacher for my lowbie arc. None of my characters remotely fit that bill, so I got off my lazy butt and made one. but if I can save myself the time and effort of thinking up a completely new character for a situation when I have one that's perfectly adequate to the task sitting in my stable, I'll take the easier option so that I can concentrate on plots and details. So, Mary Sue me.
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If they can do it, then why can't I?
[/ QUOTE ]Precedence is not justification.
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That's not an answer.
Why is it a bad thing to have my character hand out a mission, something she's not suited to deal with? Or got in over her head and needs rescuing? Or has a problem that she cant handle that she has to bring in an outside consultant?
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It's not. Only if they're taking center stage away from the players, which it's easy to do everything you said and still avoid. Characters are just characters. In fact, if you're using customs, those are "your characters", too. So would it be said that we shouldn't use customs at all either? "Mary Sue"-ism is pretty well-defined and I could see a problem with that, but cliches work or don't work due to execution. A cliche's very existence in a work would not be something to knock points down for, I think.
Dec out.
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From this weekend, I have to add one:
Tossing in Nemesis minions for no apparent reason because "He's Nemesis, it's probably some sort of plot, he doesn't have to explain himself".
I swear half of the arcs I ran had me fighting Nemesis at some point, and in none of the cases did the author try to make sense of his motivations at all. It's just "Nemesis feels like taking over Atlas park today" or "Nemesis wants to fight my custom group".
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Is that any worse than Nemesis' actions in dev arcs?
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.