[ QUOTE ]
If you create the "Penguins of Mayhem" and write good stories and get players to play and vote, the penguins by definition are now part of City lore.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true, or at least has never been stated to be true. Even Hall of Fame and Dev's Choice arcs are still bound by the rules of the Architect system, and thus are not part of the CoX canon. The only possible option to get your story added to canon would be to write something so spectacular that NC hires you as a writer, and then convince Posi and the gang to wedge your story in along with the story they're already planning to put in place.
We'll always have Paragon.
[ QUOTE ]
Regarding #2, I need to ask why? Just because past player events have not changed the game content does not mean it must stay in status forever. In fact, starting today, player content will become City lore with MAcrt going live. Players will earn badges for designing missions and content will be available to players of multiple servers. If you create the "Penguins of Mayhem" and write good stories and get players to play and vote, the penguins by definition are now part of City lore. Why can't TT achieve the same thing?
[/ QUOTE ]
Non-city lore has already affect the content of the game as pointed out by "Kill Skuls" and "Coyote".
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[ QUOTE ]
If you create the "Penguins of Mayhem" and write good stories and get players to play and vote, the penguins by definition are now part of City lore.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true, or at least has never been stated to be true. Even Hall of Fame and Dev's Choice arcs are still bound by the rules of the Architect system, and thus are not part of the CoX canon. The only possible option to get your story added to canon would be to write something so spectacular that NC hires you as a writer, and then convince Posi and the gang to wedge your story in along with the story they're already planning to put in place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Point well taken but, really, the only way to get stuff added to canon now is to resurect the comic book. And I might be wrong, but isn't a lot of the comic book stuff not in the game? Can't give an example but I seem to remember reading the comics and thinking, "Where is that in the game?"
But my point about City canon is, players make their own reality. If someone writes a Penguin arc that becomes as popular as the ITF .... By virtue of so many players playing it, it now becomes part of the game. Ok, but now an integrated part of the game which is what I think your point is.
Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity
[ QUOTE ]
In fact, starting today, player content will become City lore with MAcrt going live.
[/ QUOTE ]MArcs are not game lore.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Players making their own reality IS the problem. For anybody who hasn't been on a Tanker Tuesday run, that group's "historical" accomplishments never took place.
The game designers who wrote the back-story and created the lore for our game world added Atlas, and scattered a few plaques around the world for us to find, telling us parts of his story. Everybody's "instance" of CoX includes Atlas. Compare that to Tanker Tuesday. Tanker Tuesday is an event organized by a group of players; they get together on Champion server once a month and play their tankers. It is and it isn't exclusive. It's one time a month. It's only on Champion. Non-tankers are not invited. On the other hand, anybody who wants to create a tanker on Champion can show up on that Tuesday and join the fun. I've never played any hero on Champion, so in my "instance" of the game Tanker Tuesday never happened.
[ QUOTE ]
Ive read your alternate suggestions and appreciated the attempt. However, several of the things you mention have already been done for the third anniversary of Tanker Tuesday, and the rest of the items seem lacking and insufficient. While they were greatly appreciated then, and still are now, many people feel that an increase in recognition is not out of line, much like veteran rewards get better as you keep staying committed to the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet people complain about veteran rewards....
[ QUOTE ]
Is it the only acceptable option? Perhaps not, but the alternate suggestions so far dont seem sufficient or as fitting to many of us.
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I find it amusing you can use this as a dismissal, when what is essentially the exact same argument in reverse is what's being said about wanting a plaque. In fact, I can even quote your very next sentence:
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Although they seem more reasonable to you, we disagree.
[/ QUOTE ]
for the opposing standpoint as well.
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You have not yet given a good argument to the contrary as to why a plaque is too good.
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It is not a COH event. It is a player event. A long running player event, but still a player event. And a player event on a single server, completely irrelevant to the far greater majority of COH players.
Plaques refer to in game lore. Backstory. Events which were shown to change, in-world, COH history... that affects everyone. I believe I made this point earlier. Tanker Tuesday has not done so. It's been a single server event. Nothing about COH except the personal enjoyment of a few players has been changed. I'd argue that, as far as "In the game world," the actions of those who went after Dropships (the whole Steel 70 thing) would have had a greater "in game" or "in lore" aspect than Tanker Tuesday. (And no, I don't think they'd get one either.)
No, it's not "just" that it's only on one server, though it's a fair illustration of the lack of impact both in and *out* of the game.
True game world history is shown one way (plaques.) Player celebrations are marked in others, all of which have been pointed out already.
[ QUOTE ]
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Why do there have to be additional plaques?
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Ask the devs that, they keep adding them.
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I believe you but I cannot remember the last plaque that was added. I blame whiskey.
Anyone have a list of recent addtions?
[/ QUOTE ]
Midnighters Club in I12 - the history badge uses 'plaque' mechanics but are all the various objects
RWZ in Issue 10 would be the last plaques, which detail the forts and a few other locations
The non-badge one in Faultline (I8) by Jim
Last badge related plaques would be I7 (Grandville)
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
Players making their own reality IS the problem. For anybody who hasn't been on a Tanker Tuesday run, that group's "historical" accomplishments never took place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Attendance is not a threshold of reality. I've never been to Iraq, but that war has definitely taken place.
True, for you, TT has never happened. But does that mean it shouldn't happen, or can't happen, or didn't happen for others. I wasn't around when Atlas did his thing. Nor was I around for the first Rikti invasion. I found out about it because someone told me. And that is the point about the plaque. So now you know because someone tells you.
The only question is, is it significant enough to be told. Not for you to know, because you already know, but for someone who doesn't visit the Boards to know. Will that knowledge enhance their enjoyability of the game? Will it get someone else more involved? I would guess that a significant portion of the players know nothing about the City back story and their only encounter with plaques and monuments is so they can get their cape or aura.
Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity
[ QUOTE ]
Regarding #2, I need to ask why? Just because past player events have not changed the game content does not mean it must stay in status forever. In fact, starting today, player content will become City lore with MAcrt going live.
[/ QUOTE ]
Incorrect.
MA content becoming "lore" is about as true as the events of Ms. Pac-Man becoming World History. Because that's exactly what the MA is - a video game inside a video game.
Player and dev votes show that it's a popular video game - not that it's now part of COH History.
I wonder if the crux of the issue here might not be the difference between forms of recognition that are earned, and those that are simply granted?
The most frequently mentioned examples of changes to in-game canon and/or design are Coyote and the Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls. graffiti. Neither of those were earned recognition; they were simply at one point or another considered appropriate by the dev community and added to the game.
The bulk of the argument in favor of the TT plaque seems to me to be based upon having earned it. Length of service, benefit to the community, number of people affected, even statements of support from numbers of players are all given as reasons for that recognition.
Underlying the arguments against a plaque, it seems to me, is a feeling that granting recognition in that, specific form- a permanent change to the game architecture across all servers (no matter the size or obscurity of location)- would set a new factor into play. If such a change to the game at large can be earned, then it becomes possible for other similar changes to be earned as well. While it may seem now that 5 years longevity is a unique achievement, should the game last 5 more years, there will be quite a few more who have achieved that. I shudder to anticipate the current argument being rehashed each and every time a given event hits a chronological landmark.
For that matter, what happens on Tanker Tuesday's 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th anniversaries? Given that some arguments made in this thread have stated that the badge was needed because other forms of recognition had been given in previous years, and thus were now not sufficient, will we find folks asking for a building named in their honor on the 10th anniversary?
All hyperbole aside, I think we are united in honoring the Tanker Tuesday event; I've not seen any of those opposing the badge show any disrespect for the accomplishment, and in fact have seen much praise. Our point of contention lies in just how to appropriately express that honor.
And now, having muddled the issue further, I salute you all and head off to hopefully not be late to work. 
[ QUOTE ]
The game designers who wrote the back-story and created the lore for our game world added Atlas, and scattered a few plaques around the world for us to find, telling us parts of his story. Everybody's "instance" of CoX includes Atlas.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, the game designers who write the back-story and create the lore for our game world could add a reference to some potentially world-shattering event that only the 'toughest of heroes' banding together could prevent, and it just so happened that this group of tough guys chose the wall in Kings Row near the IP Exit as their meeting place, where they had a few beers/sodas/cans of 30-weight motor oil or whatever, and then went on to prevent the potentially disastrous event. Everybody's "instance" of CoX could include it.
[ QUOTE ]
I've never been to Iraq, but that war has definitely taken place.
[/ QUOTE ]Great point. Anyone one last night on a server other then champion see a bunch of tanks holding events?
Wow it's like we are playing a game where what happens in one server doesn't happen on others. That's just like not going to another country isn't it. In no way are those events nothing a like. That's such a good point you make.
[ QUOTE ]
Plaques are fun and mostly harmless. Tanker Tuesday is always a blast. I say add it. If you limit plaques to events that have run continuously for 5 years, there won't be too many additional plaques.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is like saying "Let's give out the [I Win Button] to five year veterans. There won't be too many of them!" Last time I checked, time did not suddenly freeze.
Also, PantherShade, you continue to miss the point that a plaque in a rarely-visited part of Kings Row is not going to bring almost ANY recognition to TT.
In fact, a good number of people in this thread seem to be double-talking on this point. Either you want the recognition, in which case all of Bill's alternatives would actually bring attention to TT, or instead you just want your collective name on a plaque for the collective ego stroke. As it stands "recognition" and "plaque in Kings Row" are mutually exclusive in my eyes.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've never been to Iraq, but that war has definitely taken place.
[/ QUOTE ]Great point. Anyone one last night on a server other then champion see a bunch of tanks holding events?
[/ QUOTE ]
Shoot, I was on Champion (level 7-10 Scrappers) in KR, and I STILL didn't see a bunch of tanks holding an event. 
[ QUOTE ]
True, for you, TT has never happened. But does that mean it shouldn't happen, or can't happen, or didn't happen for others. I wasn't around when Atlas did his thing. Nor was I around for the first Rikti invasion. I found out about it because someone told me. And that is the point about the plaque. So now you know because someone tells you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Atlas's actions were game-world, game-world-history changing.
TT... is not. TT is, despite its nature, people teaming to do missions. Long running specialty team setup, yes, but still people teaming to do missions. Doing your job, basically. You may get a watch and maybe even a little plaque in real life for that - but it's one you take home, they don't put up a plaque for every employee that's around for 5 years in every single building across the country saying "Tim Did His Job for 5 years!"
The "specialness" of organizing is outside the game world. Nothing has changed inside of it because of, or to facilitate, this organizing. All the change has been in "player-space," not "game-space." And that's where any recognition should be, as well.
So by that theory, every accomplishment made by you Americans should not be acknowledged by us Canadians, unless it effects us.
Which simply is not true, we acknowledge accomplishment regardless of our involvement.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if the crux of the issue here might not be the difference between forms of recognition that are earned, and those that are simply granted?
The most frequently mentioned examples of changes to in-game canon and/or design are Coyote and the Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls. graffiti. Neither of those were earned recognition; they were simply at one point or another considered appropriate by the dev community and added to the game.
The bulk of the argument in favor of the TT plaque seems to me to be based upon having earned it. Length of service, benefit to the community, number of people affected, even statements of support from numbers of players are all given as reasons for that recognition.
Underlying the arguments against a plaque, it seems to me, is a feeling that granting recognition in that, specific form- a permanent change to the game architecture across all servers (no matter the size or obscurity of location)- would set a new factor into play. If such a change to the game at large can be earned, then it becomes possible for other similar changes to be earned as well. While it may seem now that 5 years longevity is a unique achievement, should the game last 5 more years, there will be quite a few more who have achieved that. I shudder to anticipate the current argument being rehashed each and every time a given event hits a chronological landmark.
For that matter, what happens on Tanker Tuesday's 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th anniversaries? Given that some arguments made in this thread have stated that the badge was needed because other forms of recognition had been given in previous years, and thus were now not sufficient, will we find folks asking for a building named in their honor on the 10th anniversary?
All hyperbole aside, I think we are united in honoring the Tanker Tuesday event; I've not seen any of those opposing the badge show any disrespect for the accomplishment, and in fact have seen much praise. Our point of contention lies in just how to appropriately express that honor.
And now, having muddled the issue further, I salute you all and head off to hopefully not be late to work.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt' say you'd muddled anything. That's putting several of the arguments against the plaque, as well as reminding the thread at large that the argument is not against recognizing TT all all but only the means, rather well.
[ QUOTE ]
So by that theory, every accomplishment made by you Americans should not be acknowledged by us Canadians, unless it effects us.
Which simply is not true, we acknowledge accomplishment regardless of our involvement.
[/ QUOTE ]
Servers are separate dimensions, not counties, towns, cities, states, countries, regions, continents or anything of the like. Schools don't teach Rikti history, last time I checked.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
[ QUOTE ]
for 5 years, give them a plaque....in "their" base, nuff said.
[/ QUOTE ] You know that's the argument most of us alternate reward idea people hold right. Let TT have a reward on their server...
[ QUOTE ]
Shoot, I was on Champion (level 7-10 Scrappers) in KR, and I STILL didn't see a bunch of tanks holding an event.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actual photographic evidence of the legendary Loch Ness Tankers - or another hoax?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So by that theory, every accomplishment made by you Americans should not be acknowledged by us Canadians, unless it effects us.
Which simply is not true, we acknowledge accomplishment regardless of our involvement.
[/ QUOTE ]
Servers are separate dimensions, not counties, towns, cities, states, countries, regions, continents or anything of the like. Schools don't teach Rikti history, last time I checked.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know that Ian, I'm just trying to draw a comparison.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
A lot of debate going on but very little accomplished. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the opposition revolves around either 1) a single server or small group of servers event should not be recognized globally because it doesn't effect enough players and/or 2) player events by definition do not add to the City lore.
Regarding #2, I need to ask why? Just because past player events have not changed the game content does not mean it must stay in status forever. In fact, starting today, player content will become City lore with MAcrt going live. Players will earn badges for designing missions and content will be available to players of multiple servers. If you create the "Penguins of Mayhem" and write good stories and get players to play and vote, the penguins by definition are now part of City lore. Why can't TT achieve the same thing?
Regarding #1, if you use that as a hurdle for any in-game recognition, then you will never be able to reward players for any achievement. Because the hurdle is just too high. RO is a well run event and I see on the Boards notices but even over three servers, what do you think your distinct player base is? TT gets a few dozen players every month together, and many more for special events and anniversaries. Superteams get by TopDoc and others get several hundred players the first night (maybe more, can't really remember. Last time I paid attention there was 5 VGs set up for characters but several players had multiples. But even so, 4 full VGs is 600 characters.) With servers at player populations of 1,000 or 2,000 these are all significant numbers for the server at those times. But when compared to the total player pool of 140,000, they drop to insignificance.
I have said before and will say again that I am for some type of recognition for TT. Can I also say that I am not against other events being recognized either in a similar way or in a way appropriate to the event? I am really baffled by the hostility of some to a plaque. I can understand it if you want to keep the game from getting too cluttered or if you are against this recognition because there might be something else you think is more deserving. I understand opposition. But some of the arguments against having player lore added to the game just don't stand up anymore with i14 going live.
One last thing. Maybe from this thread the 20 or so commentors can come up with some framework where future recognition will be acceptable. If not to everyone, at least to us who are arguing for and against.
Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity