Post deleted by Moderator 08
Um, ewwww....
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do what you gotta do, though I think it's a bit dramatic to delete characters over this.
THOUGH! I still wish that AoE Hold from Spec Ops would recharge faster.
[/ QUOTE ] Gotta make space for newer, more useful alts. Usually the only ones that get deleted are under level 20 unless its something I know will never get buff again. In those cases I delete higher levels.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Post Deleted by Moderator_08
[/ QUOTE ]Dude thats just nasty, I keep thinking of that scene from American Wedding where the guy picked up and ate that turd off the ground and had to pretend it was brownie.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Yeah, but then some brown noser will just come in and say: Well what he meant was our powers not pets powers blah blah blah.
Its all sooooo stinky.
[/ QUOTE ]QFT, this happens way too much.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Post deleted by Moderator 08
Post deleted by Moderator 08
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Yeah, but then some brown noser will just come in and say: Well what he meant was our powers not pets powers blah blah blah.
Its all sooooo stinky.
[/ QUOTE ]QFT, this happens way too much.
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And then there are the d00m criers who would go d00m at the drop of the hat..... and then there are the people who are completely and utterly incapable of realizing that there is another opinion besides their own and that it maybe with just a teensie weensie tiny bit of probabilty may be just as valid as their own opinion. Also I feel that it is pretty common that when people have no further logic behind their rational and are incapable of kindly and rationally arguing their point they will more often than not reduce to stereotyping and labeling the opposing group as something negative in hopes that their point will somehow become more valid.
Now I'm not gonna point fingers or say any names but if you look where I look you see what I see. Incidentally if you quote who I quote.... you will prob know what I'm talking about.
You think the changes suck; we get it. You think that the change destroys pets 4evah. I don't (with the exception of VS and GD.... which always needed a bit of help). I'm uncertain of how the changes in the long run will effect controllers and elec toons... but I feel safe in saying that if this change makes your MM's gimp and mediocre.... your probably doing it completely wrong. I think that */devices will be pretty much the same as it was before..... needing a few buffs here and there.
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Yeah, but then some brown noser will just come in and say: Well what he meant was our powers not pets powers blah blah blah.
Its all sooooo stinky.
[/ QUOTE ]QFT, this happens way too much.
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And then there are the d00m criers who would go d00m at the drop of the hat..... and then there are the people who are completely and utterly incapable of realizing that there is another opinion besides their own and that it maybe with just a teensie weensie tiny bit of probabilty may be just as valid as their own opinion. Also I feel that it is pretty common that when people have no further logic behind their rational and are incapable of kindly and rationally arguing their point they will more often than not reduce to stereotyping and labeling the opposing group as something negative in hopes that their point will somehow become more valid.
Now I'm not gonna point fingers or say any names but if you look where I look you see what I see. Incidentally if you quote who I quote.... you will prob know what I'm talking about.
You think the changes suck; we get it. You think that the change destroys pets 4evah. I don't (with the exception of VS and GD.... which always needed a bit of help). I'm uncertain of how the changes in the long run will effect controllers and elec toons... but I feel safe in saying that if this change makes your MM's gimp and mediocre.... your probably doing it completely wrong. I think that */devices will be pretty much the same as it was before..... needing a few buffs here and there.
[/ QUOTE ]But then we have people who think the devs can do no wrong ever, despite the mountain of evidence on how this negatively effects so many powersets with and without pets. No where am I saying they killed pets forever. They just made alot of powersets lack luster and dont realize the balance implifications its going to have later on if its not rolled back. All its going to do is create more work for themselves later on when players gravitate towards other sets not effected by the change. Its either going to mean more work to buff stuff later on or more work to nerf the sets the players moved to because the other sets arent as viable as before.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
I'll add my voice to the camp that's against the change. Not that it'll make any difference. It seems as though I'm disappointed with a lot of the changes lately.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
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Yeah, but then some brown noser will just come in and say: Well what he meant was our powers not pets powers blah blah blah.
Its all sooooo stinky.
[/ QUOTE ]QFT, this happens way too much.
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And then there are the d00m criers who would go d00m at the drop of the hat..... and then there are the people who are completely and utterly incapable of realizing that there is another opinion besides their own and that it maybe with just a teensie weensie tiny bit of probabilty may be just as valid as their own opinion. Also I feel that it is pretty common that when people have no further logic behind their rational and are incapable of kindly and rationally arguing their point they will more often than not reduce to stereotyping and labeling the opposing group as something negative in hopes that their point will somehow become more valid.
Now I'm not gonna point fingers or say any names but if you look where I look you see what I see. Incidentally if you quote who I quote.... you will prob know what I'm talking about.
You think the changes suck; we get it. You think that the change destroys pets 4evah. I don't (with the exception of VS and GD.... which always needed a bit of help). I'm uncertain of how the changes in the long run will effect controllers and elec toons... but I feel safe in saying that if this change makes your MM's gimp and mediocre.... your probably doing it completely wrong. I think that */devices will be pretty much the same as it was before..... needing a few buffs here and there.
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Post Deleted by Moderator_08
[/ QUOTE ]Or you can just believe this was all a nemesis plot to sterilize kinetics and radiation so it can be ported to masterminds next issue without them having to change much. 
I got to thinking about the sets we do have with recharge. The only that has it for masterminds and its pain domination. The amount of it is very minor at best. You have to stack it like 5 times to get the full benefit of it and its still less than speed boost and AM. So why even include recharge in that clear mind power when no sane person is going to try to stack that 5 times on each teammate on a full team. 
If this change goes thru for pets and they buff the enforce morale's recharge benefit, its a safe bet that masterminds will be getting kinetics and/or rad very soon.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
If it is a nemesis plot involving a port of rad and kin to MM's in the next round I'd make the suggestion that tweaking those sets specifically for MM's would have been the "right" decision based on precedent and to avoid screwing people over.
While MM accel metab doing +regen instead of +rech might not be ideal (just as an example) I think it would serve MM's well and be pretty easy to get used to. (while also being thematic in that you heal faster when you have a faster metabolism. In fact I'm not sure why AM doesn't have some +regen in all versions heh)
edit: this change is gonna make kin of MMs very lacklustre unless you play a melee centric one. Speed boosting pets was the draw of pairing kin with your own army. I'd rather see sonic, thermal, and cold hit MM's well before kin (especially after this change).
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I didn't have insider beta knowlegdge from 2? years ago
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And I wasn't expecting you to - if you notice the full line where I mention it was in beta :
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This comes from me being in CoV Beta however
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And as far as this :
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Finally if RIP sets weren't intended to make pets attack faster how was adding them to the game exasperating the problem?
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I think it's that, in part, now that they are working, it will make it worse (since the recharge in multiaspect IOs, etc, does get passed on to pets). Also, IIRC, while it was not working, the pets THOUGHT it was, thus contributing to the "wait for it to recharge/spam one attack" issue that some pets were having relating to recharge times.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
QR
Once again, I'm going to suggest that the most useful possible feedback -- from players' persepective as much as the devs -- would be to hop on the test server and actually test the changes, preferably in a quantitative fashion.
Here's what I would do, if I had any characters that I could use to test this (taken from an earlier post):
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I guess a good way to test might be to get some relatively straightforward mission -- maybe a radio "click the glowie," since that way you could basically do the whole mission, except actually clicking the glowie and completeing it -- and time it on both live and on test. As I say, if you didn't click the glowie at the end, you could run it a few times -- say 5 or 10 -- and then you'd start to get a decent sense of how much difference the change actually makes.
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Probably be good to try this for a couple different missions.
I'm pretty sure that Castle et al. aren't trying to harm the overall performance of stormies, electric blasters, or kineticists. Therefore, if you can show that the changes have a significant effect on your performance, it would go a long way towards making the case for compensatory buffs of affected powers.
Or everybody could keep on whining and crying and spewing hyperbole. I'm sure that's just as helpful to your case.
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Dear Devs,
Wow. How can I thank you for this change? My main character, the one I spent countless hours developing and equipping, the one for whom I commissioned artwork IRL, has now been retconned into mediocrity. You couldn't even do him the honor of killing him in a meaningful way? No, he's now the Salieri of controllers.
Bravo. You sure know how to make someone feel super. I hope someone makes *you* feel super in the same way too.
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Just park him next to the stone/em tanks and brutes. In the toon dustbin.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
I very much agree. I'd love to see some data representing the "problem" sets on live using +rech (ie take your mm and play with a kin) vs on test. I already posted the results of my stormy in several threads.
to sum it up. Perma hasten stormy able to contribute less in tough fights (offense + survivability) than the other debuffing sets for about 7x as much endurance.
LS becomes a dps gain (over not casting it) on the 5th strike (roughly 30 seconds) on a heavily IO'd toon. I have no idea if/when it would be advantageous on a SO toon because you can't make it very good (maybe 1 acc, 2 end, 1 dam, 2 rech SO's? i dunno).
At any rate 30 seconds in means it is a boss/end of mission only power now, so good job there when he has said he doesn't want "boss only" powers before.
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And they have mentioned that, without doing a huge rebuild of various systems, the only other way to have it really work right would increase the CPU usage of ALL powers, pet and player alike, by 50%.
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And you realize, of course, that this so-called "better solution" would have the EXACT SAME EFFECT that the current solution does. You would no longer be able to slot Recharge in powers that do not take Recharge, and Recharge would not be passed on to pets. So LS's behavior would still be exactly the same as what everyone is complaining about.
The only thing this would "fix" is that targettable pets would still be buffable, but no one complaining about LS is complaining about that. (That's a totally separate issue)
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to sum it up. Perma hasten stormy able to contribute less in tough fights (offense + survivability) than the other debuffing sets for about 7x as much endurance.
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I don't think there's any argument that this change makes LS less effective -- or rather, less enhanceable over its base performance.
The relevant question, though, is what effect it has on the performance of the powerset as a whole. Just as an example, if you were getting 50 dps from LS on live, but only 20 dps on Test, that's a much bigger deal if the rest of your powers only contribute 50 dps than if you can crank out 150. The claim has been made that these changes are detrimental to entire powersets.
It's time to back up that assertion with some evidence.
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And they have mentioned that, without doing a huge rebuild of various systems, the only other way to have it really work right would increase the CPU usage of ALL powers, pet and player alike, by 50%.
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And you realize, of course, that this so-called "better solution" would have the EXACT SAME EFFECT that the current solution does. You would no longer be able to slot Recharge in powers that do not take Recharge, and Recharge would not be passed on to pets. So LS's behavior would still be exactly the same as what everyone is complaining about.
The only thing this would "fix" is that targettable pets would still be buffable, but no one complaining about LS is complaining about that. (That's a totally separate issue)
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I actually am annoyed on three levels, basically in reverse order:
- I don't want to lose my LS recharge, I considered it a feature
- I don't want to lose my buff and debuff abilities on REAL pets, which is i think is the biggest bad-effect from this change.
- Esthetically, I think the solution poses a false dichotomy. I think there is code that needs to be fixed. There is AI code that needs work, and there is enhancement code that needs work. There should be other ways to fix this that do not add 50% overhead to the fast-path power activation code. I suggested one above... there must be others. All the 'right' solutions require expensive code changes. The unwillingness to invest in that bugs me more than anything. If you don't want to do that, then don't change anything until you can. Kludges like this tend to backfire, i can think of dozens I've witnessed in my career.
Hopefully AI is still stupid even without extraneous +recharge -- maybe that will ultimately force 'the right thing' to happen.
This is my last post on the issue, I need to move onto other things. I'll keep my fingers crossed that something good happens. There seems to be a lack of experience, or maybe a kind of mono-culture in the Dev team ATM (not sure which, maybe both). Hell, if I were Castle, I'd be pissed that my time was worth less than that of the people with commit access to the source....
Either way, I can't stand the discussion anymore. The energy wasted has been greater than the amount needed to implement the fix 
Alas, there is no way to harness it to that end.
(obligatory speeling nerf)
--
Mu
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to sum it up. Perma hasten stormy able to contribute less in tough fights (offense + survivability) than the other debuffing sets for about 7x as much endurance.
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I don't think there's any argument that this change makes LS less effective -- or rather, less enhanceable over its base performance.
The relevant question, though, is what effect it has on the performance of the powerset as a whole. Just as an example, if you were getting 50 dps from LS on live, but only 20 dps on Test, that's a much bigger deal if the rest of your powers only contribute 50 dps than if you can crank out 150. The claim has been made that these changes are detrimental to entire powersets.
It's time to back up that assertion with some evidence.
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I'm not sure how to satisfactorily answer your question without running some missions where I only use storm powers to kill things on live and then do the same on test. In the case of my fire/storm most of my spawn to spawn killing power is fire at work, but that is a testament to fire, which can be reproduced by any set with -res or decent +dam.
What I've found is that LS is NOT worth casting unless I'm going to be fighting in one location for longer than half a min. That means bosses and higher in both team and solo.
To toss in some number from a SO build:
nado = 26 dps over 30 sec for base 21 end. A So build will never have more than 1 out.
LS = 13 dps over 60 sec for base 32 end. A SO build will never have more than 1 out.
LS on live w/ hasten and fraken IO'd = 21 shots or approx 26 dps.
Obviously nado is vastly superior to LS now and it actually was when you could improve LS too considering it is mobile, stuns, autohit, -def and has a faster cast. But from a dps stance LS was much closer on live.
So what is LS similar to now? well it is lower dps than a MM just siting there using snap shot over and over again so likely some of the lowest dps in the game. It takes about 30 sec (assuming you have LS fully damage enhanced, which a SO build may or may not due to the high rech and extreme end cost) before the dpe surpasses that same MM using his tier 1 snap shot 
In my honest opinion the majority of pve builds should skip LS for some other power. If that was the goal then gj.
One of my first posts in this thread was asking Castle what he feels storm's role is now as it provides less team safety without a lot of effort (ie making cane work on team sized spawns is not very easy and many people find it to be a "me me me" type of playstyle similar to herding tanks). It provides similar offense through -res as other debuffers, but now LS isn't worth casting outside of end boss fights and only a tiny handful of builds can utilize nado in spawn to spawn engagements (aoe -kb that is spammable).
If storm isn't a spawn to spawn specialist then it must be a big game hunter right? (it is on live when built for it). Not anymore due to these changes. Again the set provides less team safety and less effective dps against hard targets.
Other than looking really pretty (gj making another /energy armor set lol) what is storm supposed to excel at now? or is it supposed to just be a highly situational set that requires more player skill/attention that is mediocre across all venues?
I find it sad that storm has to use mountains more endurance than other sets to perform worse. I hope in 2 yrs the buff it gets is sufficient.
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Recharge intensive pet sets. I understood that these were created to increase the firing rate of the pets that they were accepted into. What exactly is their purpose now?
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That was never my understanding of what these sets were created to do. They are to increase the recharge rate of the summon power for the pet.
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A lot of people have varying understandings of these sets and the soulbound allegiance set and how they were intended to affect pets.
Does anyone have the dev info when these were implemented. And if that info does indicate that ONLY the summon recharge time was supposed to benefit and never the pet was there any dev followup done to stem the tide of posts indicating the belief that RIP and SA did improve pet performance?
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Well, if we look at what actually happened...
In early i13 closed beta, the RIP set IOs actually *did* improve the Recharge of powers belonging to the summoned pets.
During the beta a change was made so that Recharge no longer carried over to pets. Unfortunately this also blocked all *other* aspects of those IOs to carry over to the pet powers.
Now, consider what Castle said in the first post of this thread:
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For a long time, we didn't notice, but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets.
We tried a few alternatives, which essentially ended up making RIP IO's broken for several months in a variety of ways.
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If we try to add 2 and 2 together, it seems pretty obvious that the RIP set IOs were *not* intended to boost the Recharge of pets' powers, and that when the devs noticed that they *did* they made a change to prevent this. This fix unfortunately had the side effect of blocking other aspects of the RIP set IOs, something that they were not able to find a simple fix for, thus leaving the RIP set IOs essentially non-working until this fix was made.
To me at least, it seems blatantly obvious that the RIP set IOs were *never* *intended* to boost the Recharge of powers belonging to the summoned pets, and once it was realized that they did, that was prevented from happening (well before those sets even went Live).
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Finally if RIP sets weren't intended to make pets attack faster how was adding them to the game exasperating the problem?
"but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets." Castle
something is not adding up here.
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It was exasperating the problem because they were not *intended* to boost the Recharge of pets' powers, but they *did* - contrary to the devs' intent.
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Recharge intensive pet sets. I understood that these were created to increase the firing rate of the pets that they were accepted into. What exactly is their purpose now?
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That was never my understanding of what these sets were created to do. They are to increase the recharge rate of the summon power for the pet.
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Then why does Sparky accept these sets since they do absolutely nothing for this pet?
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The criteria for making a power accept RIP sets appears to basically be:
A) The power already accepts Pet Damage IO sets.
B) The power accepts regular Recharge enhancements.
So, the reason Voltaic Sentinel accepts RIP sets is simply that it fulfills both condition A) and condition B).
There's no specific requirement on "how much benefit" a power needs to gain from a specific set. In some cases this leads to situations where some people may feel that a given set confers very little in the way of benefit for a given power, and apparently that is the case here.
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In the case of my fire/storm most of my spawn to spawn killing power is fire at work...
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Yep, that was kind of my point. You can't look at a nerf to one power in isolation -- it has to be considered in light of the performance of the other 22 powers at your disposal.
Fire control is admittedly a high-damage control set; it might be a fairer test to look at, say ice/storm, any storm defender, earth/kin, etc.
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What I've found is that LS is NOT worth casting unless I'm going to be fighting in one location for longer than half a min.
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That was my observation of non-twinked LS as well. I'd bring it out for AV fights, sometimes for boss fights, or if I was just fooling around. It is pretty crucial to success in playing King of the Hill with the warriors on the hill by the tram in Talos.
In any case, I think a very good case could be made for either reducing the endurance cost or adding mobility. But I'm not sure that the current tone of the discussion is likely to render the devs particularly receptive to making those types of changes.
Yeah, but then some brown noser will just come in and say: Well what he meant was our powers not pets powers blah blah blah.
Its all sooooo stinky.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.