Discussion: Issue 14: Mission Architect - FAQ
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2009-02-26 13:02 in Developers' Corner
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Hi Positron, thanks for answering some questions on a Saturday.
Could you just talk briefly about how the Powers for custom critters will work? Do we get to say what powers from the powersets each critter will use? or, is the selection determined by the critter type (i.e. something like, Minion critters will only use the first few powers in the set, AVs will use the full powerset)
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Can't talk about the exact-exact specifics just yet.
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Can you answer that question come tomorrow? :P jk
Lots of interesting info here and thanks to the devs for answering some questions!
My question: If we place a GM in one of the missions...say Lusca in the mission, is there anyway to make it so that Lusca's "toughness" is determined by the team size and the leader's difficulty setting (while typing I thought of the "monster" code...maybe that'd work here)?
What I mean is I'd like to have the person/team fight Lusca but as of right now in the "real game" Lusca takes at least 16+ people to even think of defeating (usually)....obviously since the most we can do is 8 on a team...that wouldn't be do-able....so even though Lusca may be a GM, may be use the "monster" code so that a team of 5 could defeat him?
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We've added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior. Spikes point us to exploits, which points us to log files, which reveal the identities of exploiters. So if you find a really big exploit in the system, I'd encourage you to PM me or another Dev and try to get your Bug Hunter badge, as the alternative is not pretty.
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I really realy really don't like the wording here. I wonder just what is considered an expliot. You called running KHTF once every three hours an expliot so I wondering what "exactly" is meant here by expliot?
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If your personal moral compass flip flops or even wavers a little while doing something in the game that is obvious to you is not intended behavior, it's probably an exploit.
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This is a pretty silly statement since the list of "not intended behavior" over the years has included 6-slotting Damage enhancements, soloing AVs, being able to do about 50% of the things Repeat Offenders do (along with alot of other folks), stacking Vengeance, PvP targeting macros, Whirlwind removing grounding, being able to click glowies while Phased, and a smattering of other things that really aren't things that would cause my "moral compass to flip flop" in a million years. Some of these have been changed, others have been ignored for issues upon issues before being changed, and still others are shrugged off as part of life.
That's a pretty crappy way to explain "if you find a really big exploit".
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Or said in a nicer way: Posi, you REALLY need to be clearer on this. Personally I had not known that someone n the dev team actually called KHTF once every three hours an exploit. 
The devs list of what is and isn't exploits really does vary over time.
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We've added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior. Spikes point us to exploits, which points us to log files, which reveal the identities of exploiters. So if you find a really big exploit in the system, I'd encourage you to PM me or another Dev and try to get your Bug Hunter badge, as the alternative is not pretty.
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I really realy really don't like the wording here. I wonder just what is considered an expliot. You called running KHTF once every three hours an expliot so I wondering what "exactly" is meant here by expliot?
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If your personal moral compass flip flops or even wavers a little while doing something in the game that is obvious to you is not intended behavior, it's probably an exploit.
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This is a pretty silly statement since the list of "not intended behavior" over the years has included 6-slotting Damage enhancements, soloing AVs, being able to do about 50% of the things Repeat Offenders do (along with alot of other folks), stacking Vengeance, PvP targeting macros, Whirlwind removing grounding, being able to click glowies while Phased, and a smattering of other things that really aren't things that would cause my "moral compass to flip flop" in a million years. Some of these have been changed, others have been ignored for issues upon issues before being changed, and still others are shrugged off as part of life.
That's a pretty crappy way to explain "if you find a really big exploit".
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Or said in a nicer way: Posi, you REALLY need to be clearer on this. Personally I had not known that someone n the dev team actually called KHTF once every three hours an exploit.
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I'd be very interested in DK providing a quote from a redname to that effect. He's somewhat prone to hyperbole on topics about which he feels passionately, and as can be seen by his postcount in the 13 months since his reg date, often says things in an off-the-cuff manner.
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The devs list of what is and isn't exploits really does vary over time.
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There's not a good way to list out every possible exploit, because if they could tell us what the exploits are, they would fix them. The general rule of, "If you think it's too good to be true, it probably is," which he gave a variant of, is not a bad one to follow.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Fair enough.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Can't talk about the exact-exact specifics just yet.
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Fair enough, I'll just wait patiently for more info/open beta 
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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I'd just like to say about the 'exploits'...it baffles me how people 'complain' and/or whine when something changes that they don't like...for example it's been mentioned that solo'ing AVs is bad/an "exploit". I don't consider that an "exploit" per se....I call it a "no brainer"....I mean this is an MMO...a game where there are some things that are meant for groups to do...in this case taking down/out an AV/Hero. When it is changed so that you can no longer take out an AV/Hero by yourself, don't get all frustrated by it...I know when CoV came out and I was lvl'ing my Ninja/DM MM up I solo'ed an AV (pretty sure at least) or two but I if I can't, oh well, I either get friends or drop the difficulty level. *shrugs*
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Positron, I am a little concerned about the possible rate griefing involved with being able to rate an arc that hasn't been played. Especially when there are badges involved in rating unrated arcs or ones that don't have many ratings. A lot of people will probably get their badges simply by going down the line of unrated arcs, slapping a 1 star rating on them, and getting their badge in the process. I've seen rating systems on web-published content experience things like that, and that's WITHOUT the enticing badge. Please reconsider allowing someone to rate an unfinished arc.
*EDIT* Been here since CoH beta, and this is the first time I've posted after a redname.
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I'm willing to listen to ideas on how truly horrible content can get rated without having to endure all of it.
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Only allow people to give an "I" for incomplete rating if they dont finish the mission.
I had that grade, I mean, I know a guy who had that as a grade in school once.
If someone runs 3/5 missions, they can grade 3 and give an "I" on the last.
If someone runs 1 of 2 missions, they can grade the 1st but give an "I" on the second.
These are suggestions btw, not how it works afaik.
Personally, I wouldn't consider doing a KHTF every three hours to get the reward an exploit. Power gaming perhaps and going a bit against what is intended, but still operating inside the rules of the system. Just pushing those rules as far as possible.
Somehow doing a KHTF every 30 minutes and STILL getting the reward every time WOULD have been an exploit. It's operating outside the rules and logic of the game, is very obviously not working as intended, and offers a far greater reward than should be allowed. It's breaking the rules, not just pushing them.
Of course that's an example from the old TF system and not really valid for the new merit system... but it's still the metric I go by. Pushing the rules but still working within their bounds is power gaming. Breaking the rules is exploiting.
Note that I'm not saying "if it's possible ingame, it's not a cheat". Obviously with my example, getting a reward from the KHTF every 30 minutes would be "possible ingame", since in the example people could exploit it... but it still very much goes against the established rules.
And example for MA (which probably isn't real. but still needs to be watched for!) is the rule where we can't get regular kill badges in MA missions. That's how it's intended to work. If there is a way to get (say) the Illusionist badge through MA missions, then that would be a bug. Using that bug to get the badge would be exploiting.
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When people play your arcs, tickets earned that way go into a pool.
You can then claim tickets out of that pool onto any character.
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With the technology to do that in place, could you do the same thing with normal unlockable costume pieces?
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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Oh.
And you can't publish a mission that can't be "beaten". It might be hard, but the error checking makes sure that whatever you make is possible to complete.
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This is interesting. I'm going to be VERY curious to see how the system tests for whether a mission is beatable or not.
Will it test based on, say, the number of AVs present? Their powers bestowed by the architect? The relatively balance of a custom mob's power? I hadn't really planned on creating anything so challenging that this might come into play, I'm just hoping the checks aren't TOO stringent.
Would the LRSF pass the MA's test, I wonder?
What about 5 AV's, all BS/Shields, all spamming Parry, all with Grant Cover? (oh, and the bosses were all FF defenders)
I can't wait to get in there and see what "unbeatable" really means.
Let's say I create a patrol of friendly NPCs. Can I create an objective that, when complete, will turn them aggressive? You guys alluded to being able to have an NPC switch sides in the audio on massively.com - defeat a boss and one of his henchmen will switch sides and join you. It wasn't clear whether that henchmen already existed when you were fighting the boss, or if he spawned after the boss was defeated.
I'm similarly curious about a glowie objective chained on to a boss defeat objective. Can I set it so the glowies only start to glow after I've defeated the boss, or will they still be clickable before the boss is defeated?
Also, although I'm assuming this wont be in at release, have you guys considered giving finer control over spawn points? The spawn points are already all preset on the map, so it might be neat if I could click on a specific spawn point and control what goes on there. I could put a glowie guarded by some dudes, or put my boss in that specific spot, or give the guys at that spot some specific dialogue, etc. It would be the next best thing to letting us place the spawn points ourselves.
That might allow you to change "objectives" into "events" and expand what they can do. For example, you could create an explosion event that chains off a glowie click, that destroys a specific object at a specific spawn point. Or an aggro event that aggros the mobs at a specific place. Or a teleportation events that teleport the player to a spawn point.... It would really open up the possibilities.
Of course, I don't know that you don't already have something like that, but it seems unlikely since there's nothing like that in the game right now.
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ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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I'm willing to listen to ideas on how truly horrible content can get rated without having to endure all of it.
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I don't have a good answer to that, but it did raise a concern.
What if someone gets a mad on for a given player, and goes in and 1 or 2 stars all his arcs out of hand? If he doesn't do that for every arc he comes across, just the arcs that have a specific global name attached to them, how can an architect avoid having his stuff sabotaged out of the Hall of Fame?
(I suppose if the player name isn't attached to the arc in the first place, that would be one way. )
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What if someone gets a mad on for a given player, and goes in and 1 or 2 stars all his arcs out of hand? If he doesn't do that for every arc he comes across, just the arcs that have a specific global name attached to them, how can an architect avoid having his stuff sabotaged out of the Hall of Fame?
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One person probably isn't going to be able to affect the rating of an arc that much. You'd need to get a coalition of supergroups to do it or something.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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What if someone gets a mad on for a given player, and goes in and 1 or 2 stars all his arcs out of hand? If he doesn't do that for every arc he comes across, just the arcs that have a specific global name attached to them, how can an architect avoid having his stuff sabotaged out of the Hall of Fame?
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One person probably isn't going to be able to affect the rating of an arc that much. You'd need to get a coalition of supergroups to do it or something.
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And rating is per account.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I'm willing to listen to ideas on how truly horrible content can get rated without having to endure all of it.
[/ QUOTE ]How about let the player rate without completing only one mission per week or month? To ensure that it's only used to get out of "bad" missions, the rating for such an aborted mission would always be "one star".
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Oh! Better idea... Is there any way you can give certain ratings more 'weight' than others? If someone rates a mission without playing it, it would have a low weight against the total rating, while someone who completes it has a greater effect on the overall rating. What do you think?
*EDIT* This could count more towards the badge, too, in some way.
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That's a reasonable idea. Someone who rates an arc after playing half of the first mission shouldn't have an equal vote compared to the person who played all the missions in the arc.
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But in the case of "Mission That's Virtually Impossible" you'd get a bunch of low-weighted 1-stars from people who couldn't finish it, and a bunch of heavily-weighted 5-stars from the few who could finish it and enjoyed the challenge.
Or you'd get a mission so annoying that nobody would ever complete it except the mission designer and his friends, who all 5-star it.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but there are ways to game virtually every rating system.
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Of course there is. And that's why I think the way that offers the LEAST avenues of breaking the system works the best. What you described could be done with any of the rating systems, but overall I think having the responses weighted would help reduce (not fix entirely, since that's impossible) the number of incidents.
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I'm willing to listen to ideas on how truly horrible content can get rated without having to endure all of it.
[/ QUOTE ]How about let the player rate without completing only one mission per week or month? To ensure that it's only used to get out of "bad" missions, the rating for such an aborted mission would always be "one star".
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I like this one, too. Limited no-play ratings. I'd allow it to be more frequent though, like once per day.
Sounds completely incredible
but i have a few questions
How many AVs and allies will i be able to add to the mission?
Do we get to edit the maps, like the position of the mobs, random boxes, etc.?
When we create our villain groups or allies, are the choices limited i.e. do we get all the same costume choices the same as the ones you get when you first create a toon?
Thank You
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I thought of a question! With so many account wide unlockables in the MA, are the tickets going to be account wide/tradable? If some of the more awesome unlockables are pricey, it might be difficult for someone who doesn't stick to one alt to unlock them.
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When people play your arcs, tickets earned that way go into a pool.
You can then claim tickets out of that pool onto any character.
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Question:
Can you redo Reward Merits that way? It'd be helpful for people who play alot of alts and never accumulate many merits on any one character.
EDIT: Also, first after Redname.
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He said when people play YOUR arcs.
From that wording, I would presume that any tickets you earn by playing OTHER people's arcs are specific to the character that played. Which is how merits do currently work.
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Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Yes, when you earn merits, you are earning them by something CHARACTER X is doing, so CHARACTER X gets the merits and it is not tradeable.
When Character X plays "Recue 25 Fusionettes" and earns tickets those tickets were earned by Character X and should be awarded to that Character.
Creating missions is an account wide thing (so that you do not have 3 slots per character x 300 characters, I assume) Since the merits earned by people running the arcs that were created -by your account as a whole- the tickets go to -your account as a whole- and then can therefore be assigned to Character X or Character Y or CHaracter Z on that account.
1.) Did any of that make any sense?
2.) Was any of that correct?
On 'Exploits':
Imagine a very efficient way for you to play the game doing regular missions, a TF here or there, and occasional street-sweeping that garners you a very good XP/minute reward. A rate that may even be better than the average player. That's fine.
Now, let's say you suddenly find a way to manipulate the mechanics of the game, perhaps by running across a bug, that enables you to triple your XP/minute reward. That's not fine.
That is a broken gaming mechanic. Perhaps an out-and-out bug. But it's not an exploit until you exploit it for an obvious and unusually large extra reward.
If your ATM gave you an extra $20 ever time you withdrew, you know that's not what it's supposed to do. If you then withdraw from it 20 times a day for a 'free' $400 per day, then that is an exploit. And criminal. And punishable by law. And all those who got large sums of 'free' money because of bank error were forced to repay it and, in many cases, charged with theft because they knew they were taking money that was not theirs. The argument that the bank was in error didn't hold water in a court of law (and I'm talking about cases where people hid and did not report the error and spent the money on themselves).
An exploit is not finding the arc that gives you the best Merit/hour and farming it; though, that's a sign of unbalanced mechanics that needs some balancing. An exploit is finding an arc that gives you ten times the reward because you found a way to bypass a required objective and exploiting that bug for personal gain.
Like art and lewdness, you know it when you see it.
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Positron, I am a little concerned about the possible rate griefing involved with being able to rate an arc that hasn't been played. Especially when there are badges involved in rating unrated arcs or ones that don't have many ratings. A lot of people will probably get their badges simply by going down the line of unrated arcs, slapping a 1 star rating on them, and getting their badge in the process. I've seen rating systems on web-published content experience things like that, and that's WITHOUT the enticing badge. Please reconsider allowing someone to rate an unfinished arc.
*EDIT* Been here since CoH beta, and this is the first time I've posted after a redname.
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I'm willing to listen to ideas on how truly horrible content can get rated without having to endure all of it.
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Perhaps a seperate "Petition Rating" button that would allow someone to petition for a one-star rating at the same time as call GM/Dev attention to it. The rating wouldn't be applied toward the arc or count toward badges until reviewed. And then require an arc to be completed for any normal 1-5 rating applied immediately.
This would serve secondary purposes of identifying both abusive raters and abusive arcs, while allowing someone to exit that arc without having to suffer through the sludge of unfun.
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Oh.
And you can't publish a mission that can't be "beaten". It might be hard, but the error checking makes sure that whatever you make is possible to complete.
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This is interesting. I'm going to be VERY curious to see how the system tests for whether a mission is beatable or not.
Will it test based on, say, the number of AVs present? Their powers bestowed by the architect? The relatively balance of a custom mob's power? I hadn't really planned on creating anything so challenging that this might come into play, I'm just hoping the checks aren't TOO stringent.
Would the LRSF pass the MA's test, I wonder?
What about 5 AV's, all BS/Shields, all spamming Parry, all with Grant Cover? (oh, and the bosses were all FF defenders)
I can't wait to get in there and see what "unbeatable" really means.
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I think he means that the system checks for logical impossibilities. You can have multiple objectives in one mission. If the missions are logically incompatible, then you can't publish the mission.
Example: Obj 1 - rescue Fusionette and lead her to the exit. After she leaves, you get a new objective - defeat Fusionette.
Or you could have a boss in a locked room, and the objective is to defeat him, but the only way to reach him is to get a key, and the only way to get the key... is to defeat him.
I think the system checks for those logical impossibilities.
As for the exploit thing, I think the problem is that the devs, Castle in particular I think, have used the word "exploit" rather carelessly in the past. Didn't Castle say it was an exploit that Hover gave partial knockback protection? After it had been behaving that way for more than four years? Do you think anyone's moral compass wiggled when they only got flipped around by a knockback power while hovering? There are some people who consider all farming to be exploitive behavior. Other people think it's just common sense to spend your time efficiently. God knows how often I've been accused of exploiting the market, just because I sometimes buy things that I plan to sell instead of craft.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
There is one question that I have not heard answered. Will Voids, Dwarfs, etc. show up if there is Peacebringer or Warshade in the mission.
Can you add Voids into the mission as a standard mob?
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We've added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior. Spikes point us to exploits, which points us to log files, which reveal the identities of exploiters. So if you find a really big exploit in the system, I'd encourage you to PM me or another Dev and try to get your Bug Hunter badge, as the alternative is not pretty.
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I really realy really don't like the wording here. I wonder just what is considered an expliot. You called running KHTF once every three hours an expliot so I wondering what "exactly" is meant here by expliot?
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If your personal moral compass flip flops or even wavers a little while doing something in the game that is obvious to you is not intended behavior, it's probably an exploit.
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This is a pretty silly statement since the list of "not intended behavior" over the years has included 6-slotting Damage enhancements, soloing AVs, being able to do about 50% of the things Repeat Offenders do (along with alot of other folks), stacking Vengeance, PvP targeting macros, Whirlwind removing grounding, being able to click glowies while Phased, and a smattering of other things that really aren't things that would cause my "moral compass to flip flop" in a million years. Some of these have been changed, others have been ignored for issues upon issues before being changed, and still others are shrugged off as part of life.
That's a pretty crappy way to explain "if you find a really big exploit".
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