Live Feedback: Issue 13 : Merit Reward System
By
1VB_FIST,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 18:56 in Developers' Corner
Subjective Feedback:
Merits seem to be having a noticeable, positive effect on game play from what I can see, at least in the short term.
Globally there seem to be more and different Task Forces being run now than prior to I13. I've frequently seen calls for each of the Task Force Commander TFs as well as some of the others (such as Moonfire or Ouro TFs). I've even run a Katie TF since i13 launched, which hit 8 members despite the low merit reward (most of us were <35 and so still earning xps on it).
Personally, merits have lead me back to the Hollows on a pair of my new alts to play through the arcs there and gain the few merits offered. They're not much but if I'm going to be soloing for a bit it beats soloing newspaper missions (at least once the 1st safeguard is taken care of).
"Striving for the impossible" doesn't mean "toiling in vain". It means growth. It means improvement in the direction of your ideals. Not futility.
Erfworld: the Battle for Gobwin Knob
I'm not sure if the merit reward system was supposed to replace all recipe drops, for other than basic I/Os. For the set recipes is seems as thou the old reward system is being used. The few that have dropped have all be unslot-able by the receiving character. Of course, the purples, have not seen one since April/May timeframe.
Objectively, there are more Task Forces heroside than there are Strike Forces, villainside.
There are more merit-earning opportunities heroside than there are villainside, too.
Will this be addressed in the future with villain-specific content?
[ QUOTE ]
Objectively, there are more Task Forces heroside than there are Strike Forces, villainside.
There are more merit-earning opportunities heroside than there are villainside, too.
Will this be addressed in the future with villain-specific content?
[/ QUOTE ]So far everything has been great for me. As the person I quoted mentioned it really makes getting merits on villains alot harder to do because they have way fewer options. I dont see them ever making any more villain specific content anytime soon so to me the best option at this point is to make merits account based so even if you hero tfs you could use the merits on villains. Otherwise it gets old really fast. I cant count how many times I done the LRSF and Silver Mantis tfs ever since issue 13 came out.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
One last thing for the love of gawd please reduce the diminishing returns timer down to 20 hour or even 22 hours. I am having all kinds of hell trying to remember what time I finished which tf with what character. It would just be better if If I could do it around the same time and not have to know the exact time.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Merits:
Objective: No opinion. Haven't done anything that gave me a merit.
Subjective: Once I learn wtf to do with Vanguard Merits, perhaps I'll give a flying flock enough to learn wtf to do with these newfangled Merits.
Perhaps.
But my overall impression is similar to what I've read from other people: what possible purpose could be served by adding more ways to buy stuff when we already have ways of buying that stuff?
If stuff is too expensive, increase drop rates and focus on making what is in game work right instead of adding yet MORE BROKEN CRAP to a game that is filled with BROKEN CRAP.
/rant off
Objective: Several story arcs haven't been giving xp awards at completion, but have been giving merits. This may just be a missing message, I haven't tested thoroughly enough. I'll bug it next time it happens, but I figured I'd mention it here too.
Subjective: I love the direction Merits has taken the game, I'm much more willing to do TFs now that I know I won't go through all that work and get yet *another* Crap of the Hunter. Very happy with it thus far, and I think in the long run even the Katie runners will be happy to be doing other TFs once in a while and giving that poor girl a rest.
Infatum on Virtueverse
The good: Lots of TFs being run that weren't run all that often before. Of course, it's still trending toward the best Merit/Hr ones, but that was expected.
Monsters are actually being hunted down, not just ignored forever.
The bad: Unable to share Merit credit for running a story arc, even if your sidekick did the whole thing with you. Can't even give him half the Merits yourself afterward. I do a lot of solo story arcs anymore.
Merit Vendor has no way to tell you which recipes are in a Level XX Task Force Random Roll. What does that even mean going forward? No TF has ever or will ever drop an Obliteration recipe, after all, so how do I know which pool to take a chance in if I want to try to pick one up for cheap?
I don't think that it's a terrible idea, but in it's current form I don't see it as very useful. In order for it to be more functional I still say that everyone on a team needs to receive some sort of merit award when doing missions other than paper missions. The only other option would be to dramatically lower the cost of items, which to me isn't an option at all.
Also if they implement other items to purchase with merits such as costume pieces and temp powers then it would be more worth the effort. As it stands the time sink to obtain enough merits for an item is not in line with me being able to obtain it through WW.
Subjective Feedback:
One thing I've noticed since I13 launched is that I'm paying a lot more attention to running story arcs instead of other content. I've found that sometimes this can be difficult unless I solo. The reason being that it is difficult to line things up for simultaneous completion. One reason is that there tends to be a good bit of level skew on the teams my SG network runs, so often I can't have the same story arc. Another factor in this is that even when I am at the same level it is often hard to get synchronized because the contacts insist on giving out their arcs at different times and in different orders. For example, last night I joined a team with some friends and it happened that we were all the same level. The leader was going to start running missions from Petrovich in Shark and I had him as a contact as well. So I went to go get the same mission - and couldn't. In fact, even after we decided to clear mine to get me synced up, it still didn't work. At that point we decided the heck with it so I'm not going to get any merits from that contact (because I'll out level him as we move on). Prior to I13 I wouldn't have bothered with any of this - it just simply didn't matter. Now I feel as if it does (maybe it still doesn't, but *subjectively* I feel that it does) and as a result I was a bit upset, instead of being happy to be running with my friends. Not an ideal situation.
One more bit of subjective feedback - I'm not sure that the merit awards for various story arcs are well balanced against each other (in fact it kind of seems like they were determined randomly). Case in point - the second story arc from Sister Airlia in Cim. That arc has 4 or 5 missions, 3 of which are kill alls and 2 talks. Two of the kill alls are against difficult mobs on large maps. One of the kill alls involves multiple EBs (solo) and large ambushes and is on a simply huge map. The merit reward - 3 merits. I see absolutely know way to run that arc in 36 minutes and thus maintain the 1 merit per 12 minutes that arcs are supposed to produce. Heck finishing the last mission is hard to do in 36 minutes. Do you really need data mining to tell you that?
More subjective feedback - I did decide to take 2 random Pool D drops using 60 merits. My reasoning was that I would slot 3 of the 9 things in the pool and only 1 of the 9 was likely to be worthless (and it can be avoided by taking the drop at lvl 30, at least I think it can if I read that text correctly). In the end I got 2 things that I slotted, so winner. I'm not currently prepared to do the same thing in Pool C, though I have no idea if I'm the exception or the rule at this point.
OK, all subjective, sorry. I haven't played enough or seen enough merits for objective feedback.
well i can take the merits or leave them, I think they should be optional not forced on us, even though they may be a bummer of a recipe at the end,at least you had the "excitment" of what you were getting, the recent farming of merits shows a bit of a problem with them, after so long of a time NOT getting what we want or can afford, I saw more excitement from people who were farming than in a LONG time.I have had to "create" a tw/three day mission rotation so I do not run into the diminishing returns. the low amount of merits for some arcs means I will be still skipping them, it is like we are dying of thirst and the arcs only give us swizzle sticks to drink through.for the record I am 2 days away from my 51 month badge so I have seen a lot on my home server.
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
Objective:
Our Speed SFs have gone from Fastest to best Merit/Hr. It has increased the diversity of which SFs we do thou so that's good 
Subjective:
Pls, please, please lower the timer on the DR for Merits 20hours at the most. Because most people play at the same time each night during the week, we can't run the same SF again the following night.
GOD bless
My thought on this, is fix the Task Forces instead of trying new ways to force people into playing them. Merits accomplish nothing new. If it included the epic IOs then it would make sense. I still have not seen a purple IO except on WW. Include purples or do away with the merit system. 
I too would like to see the timer decreased from 24 hours to 20 hours.
Wee Little Tank Girl, Wee Little Widow, Wee Little Clockwork
Pro:
Being able to buy the recipe I want! I can finally get that Luck of the Gambler Def/Global Recharge for less than 25-60 Million, and even at lower level than level 50 (nice to keep those set bonuses when exemping).
Con:
Costs on average two tf/sf's worth just to buy the 'commonest' uncommon recipes. Rares requires 6-8 or more. (This presumes an average of 25 merit for a tf) The costs are too high. Decreasing them 20%-33% would help(they should not be TOO cheap). Some rare recipes cost far too much for low demand sets (i.e. Trap of the hunter, Pace of the Turtle). I cannot imagine anyone spending 200 merits for Trap of the hunter : Chance for Lethal Damage.
Pro:
Villains can spend merits to get the recipes that are selling for over 60 million on Black Market for much less.
Con:
Villains have few SF's to earn merits to begin with. Lord Recluse's SF is easily the hardest in the game, and grants only 25. The reward is not worth the risk, and is far too low for what is supposed to be "endgame content".
Villains need more SF's, and likely a 20% increase to the merits rewards until more content can be added. LRSF should be 60%-100% more than it is.
Pro:
Giant Monsters are sought after beyond the first "get-the-badge" defeat--now they drop merits!
Con:
They drop a mere two, and many stop seeking Giant Monsters due to low reward. (Lusca is particularly bad granting 2 merits for want is in essence nine defeats).
% merits would be a better base, and the value ought to be modified base on the difficulty of the monster.
The monsters of Monster Island grant none, and should at least have a small chance to grant a merit.
Pro:
I can spend merits for rare salvage.
Con:
I can only get a random drop as opposed to what I actually need. (Merits are too few and too precious to waste on random salvage)
Pro:
I can spend a merits to get a random Trial or TF recipe drop. No more 'farming' Eden trials and Katie Hannon TF's.
Con:
I have no idea what set recipe is in which pool, especially in regards to the new Set recipes.
Pro:
Ouroboros arcs grant Merits! Excellent!
Con:
These leaves them open to farming when anyone find an arc than grants a lot of merits.
Flashback arcs should only grant a percentage if a player already has the souvenir from the arc (and I mean each player, if some have it partial amount, those who don't full. Even on the same team.) I have not been able to test if this is already the case, or if it's even possible to grant varying awards to the same team.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
[ QUOTE ]
I too would like to see the timer decreased from 24 hours to 20 hours.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't mind if it was even as low as 12-16 hours. Some folks can only play on the weekend, and then the taskforces they can get on. Some folks still do the same one again and again.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
Objective:
While being able to get the super powerful recipes is convenient, some of the normal recipes are more expensive than luck of the gambler.
With such a system, the normal recipes that are currently easy to get at the exchange will become rare as everybody gets the elite recipes. So if a person actually wants a normal recipe, they must either pay LotG prices or get randoms. There will probably be very few non-elite recipes at the exchange.
Besides lowering prices, I suggest adding pool C and D recipes to pools A and B with a low ptobability so that some don't become impossible to acquire for inf.
Subjective:
I find that, while looking for a TF to do for merits, there are no villain TFs that are even close to the co-op TFs for value. One reason for this is that malefactoring is inconvenient and the only TF at level 50 is the LRSF which is far harder, awards less merits, and offers HOs which are arguably better.
Please add TFs at level 50.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Objectively, there are more Task Forces heroside than there are Strike Forces, villainside.
There are more merit-earning opportunities heroside than there are villainside, too.
Will this be addressed in the future with villain-specific content?
[/ QUOTE ]So far everything has been great for me. As the person I quoted mentioned it really makes getting merits on villains alot harder to do because they have way fewer options. I dont see them ever making any more villain specific content anytime soon so to me the best option at this point is to make merits account based so even if you hero tfs you could use the merits on villains. Otherwise it gets old really fast. I cant count how many times I done the LRSF and Silver Mantis tfs ever since issue 13 came out.
[/ QUOTE ]
I second this account based merits idea, I heard it come up during beta and thought it was a good idea then too. Like right now I keep trying to run TFs with my new scrapper who is luckily in a good level range finally but its hard when your friends want to get Merits on their characters too but arent anywhere near your level. I hear "I want this character to get all my Merits" almost every day from people. Rather then spread out all the merits between characters a lot of people are focusing them through one character and having that one character do allt he merit recipe buying.
Also so far I think the merit rewards for more story arcs are a little low, until I started actually running task forces in the mid 30s I believe my character only had 50 or so merits and I had done a ton of the content at that point to those merits. When I went to a vendor to see what I could get with my shiny merits the selection was very small and not very useful.
Subjective:
Overall, I like the Merit System. It's a decent way to build up credits to get decent rewards. In fact there's only one minor issue I have with it at all:
Lusca.
I can understand the other GMs awarding two, but Lusca? Lusca isn't a normal Giant Monster. It's NINE. Technically eight if you count the fact that the head doen't attack at all. Lusca requires much more time and effort to bring down than any other Giant Monster, so why does it give the same rewards? Each tentacle should be worth a single Merit on it's own, since you have to take down at least 6 of them in order to defeat the thing.
I say give Merits to the tentacles instead of just granting more to defeating the head, because that way if a group decides to take out more than just the required 6 tentacles, they at least get some extra reward for their effort.
Two wrongs don't make a right. However, three rights make a left.
L00k, w3'r3 r3f0rmed! W3'v3 g0t l1v3s n0w, 4nd 1'm 4 buz1n3ss Pwnz0r! -Reformed Freak Proprieter
Seek. Find. Rularuu.
Target. Destroy. Rularuu.
Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls. Rularuu.
Objective: I've been working on my high characters, and what I'm finding is that the old system used to allow you to pick a single Single origin reward. Sister A's arcs, which has a defeat of 2 Elites in the same mission, don't even yield enough merits to buy a single S/O, let alone anything more valueable. (if I recall correctly, I got a total of 3 from the whole thing).
Subjective: I see no reason to bother purchasing random rolls on the rare salvage table, because the new merit system is entirely too parsimonious to warrant it (besides, as sg leader, I let everyone keep their base salvage to convert to brainstorms for later salvage conversion). That said, I like the option of being able to eventually buy a Numina's convelescence and similar that are usually so far out of the realm of purchase as to be laughable.
I think perhaps the tutorial should get an update on dealing with things like the merit system and how to use it, as at least a few posters seem confused over the whole thing. (oh, perhaps something that lets the character buy something with them? so they can learn the interface?)
Likewise, I'd like to see the # of merits for story completion be at least the equivalent of the old reward system. That is, one should get at least the same number of merits as they'd get for an S/O in the upper level stuff.
Anyways, that's my take on things. I frankly like the merit system, overall, I just wish there'd be a little bit more of reward per.
Also, I'd like to see purples formulas added to the reward tables, buuut that's me. They're in the Numina pricing range right now, and the odds of random drop is just to small to be relied on.
Other than that, it's nice to know I can actually pick the item I want.
[ QUOTE ]
Subjective:
Overall, I like the Merit System. It's a decent way to build up credits to get decent rewards. In fact there's only one minor issue I have with it at all:
Lusca.
I can understand the other GMs awarding two, but Lusca? Lusca isn't a normal Giant Monster. It's NINE. Technically eight if you count the fact that the head doen't attack at all. Lusca requires much more time and effort to bring down than any other Giant Monster, so why does it give the same rewards? Each tentacle should be worth a single Merit on it's own, since you have to take down at least 6 of them in order to defeat the thing.
I say give Merits to the tentacles instead of just granting more to defeating the head, because that way if a group decides to take out more than just the required 6 tentacles, they at least get some extra reward for their effort.
[/ QUOTE ]
OMG Right... whenever I start a Lusca fight, I advertise it as a "LUSCA RAID" I've done this ever since ISSUE 6!
Why? Cause it takes so damn long.
Also what's up with hammi not having more merits seriously thats like hmm mitos plus the nucleous x3....yeh his reward...not acceptable.
On the subject of hamido, the end reward of the Lady Grey TF/SF is also unacceptable, and does not take into account the weakened hamidon defeat which can be rather lenghty if youdon't have "just the right" team!
First, was it intended to remove the XP and Influence bonus for finishing a story arc, as well as replacing the DO/SO choice screen with automatic merit drops? If it was not intended, please fix this, those bonuses can make a big difference over a character's career. If it was intended, please reconsider, same reason.
Second...my scrapper is enjoying the merits he gets for doing his story arcs. My controller isn't, because she doesn't get her story arcs done, since she doesn't solo. There needs to be some way to address this.
Third...I presume you are tracking these, but I can't imagine people are spending much of their merits on random rolls from the TF pool. There is so much utter bovine droppings in the pool, the chance of getting what you want is meaningless. A suggestion...add more expensive random rolls where you get to pick the category at least. For example, "Melee damage" or "Healing". That way, people can still pick a random recipe, but at least know they are getting a recipe they will find useful.
Last...I still think that the value of 2 merits for the Eden trial is absolutely insane. And I fear the first round of "adjustments" as the speed runners and farmers have moved into other TFs. I have been in the game since launch, and I have NEVER run an Eden trial in 10 minutes. I got into one "speeden" where we got through the holes in the walls...and that was still more than 10 minutes.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Subjective Feedback:
I love that there is a way for players who wish to save merits to get upper level recipe rewards.
I'm not happy that merits are not tradeable.
I'm not happy that there is a 24 hour period to on down time, such that I may have to sacrifice an immediate reward, if a friend needs a particular alt for a 2nd tf run(old system- I logged that alt out and came back for full reward)(re- weekend player on a lower pop. server).
I'm not happy that there is seeming dislike for a player to get an immediate reward upon completion of a trial/ tf / sf, as if that is somehow wrong (re: threats from company to reduce merits given certain situations although we are customers paying for a service -re: vision for the game).At least for me,that need for an immediate 'shiny' is still there, as IOs (basic & sets) replaced SOs and thus the need for that enh. drop or even cash reward to an extent, a few issues ago.
In the old system, the norm. was people linked their drops in chat, adding extra intangible reward for me(bragging rights, human nature to favour a gamble etc.)I miss that loss of interaction to a degree and I see that as unintended consequence of the new system.
I strongly dislike being forced to only get lvl 50 recipe drops from merit rolls as I do exempt (See drop in supply @markets & I am now actually hoping, farmers make alts and keep them at certain levels to help market supply and I don't like that I'm thinking that).
I love the merit reward idea for GMs. I don't care for the inconsistency in policy as merit reward (see GM battles, e.g. Lusca vs Croatoa GMs time & difficulty )
I dislike that Purples are not there as merit rewards. The drop rate in game is too low for me. I'm not that lucky and there is a point that it's a suck, then there is a point of frustration.I'm at the latter.Making them available would not somehow let me trick out my alts faster and cause me to become a statistic of the turnover rate.
I wish that team members would get merits for running story arcs.As it stands, I believe that the current system does not encourage teaming.
Although I have problems with the system, I am all for a merit system idea. I just wish that the idea of an immediate reward for time spent having fun and helping others complete an objective, while trying to serve my altitis, was not seen as bad or somehow taking advantage of other other players.I like the carrot.
*N.B. I'm not as bitter as I realize this sounds =p*
Pinnacle & Virtue:
A bunch of Heroes - Alpha Team, Legion of Order.
A bunch of Villains -Black Citadel , Pinnache.
I don't really have much objective feedback.
Subjectively, I have lots to say, but I think I'll focus on something not many people have discussed.
Merits as presented in the game feel horribly "artificial". A "reward merit" is an awful, generic-feeling name in my opinion. I could stand that, indeed it might not even have dawned on me, except for "Merit Vendors". That is a really deeply immersion-breaking name and concept.
Whatever people think of merits functionally, I think there was a missed opportunity here to integrate them better into the ongoing theme of the game. For example, when Inventions were presented, there was a significant "roleplay" presentation by Dr. Brainstorm, describing the system in terms related to the powers origins system, and indeed to the AT/powerset system. Not everyone may have thought this was the best fictional effort, but at least it was an effort made. In contrast merits feel "cold".
Perhaps ironically, I think "brainstorms" would have been a great name for merits. Instead of being some bling that you get for doing stuff, they could have been presented as a sudden inspiration in figuring out how to create a recipie from scratch instead of just seemingly finding it on a foe or at the end of an adventure (mission/TF/SF/Trial).
Finally, I will touch subjectively on something mechanical about the system. I think the implementation you guys are using for figuring out how many merits content should be worth is terrible. Ultimately it focuses overly on how your powergamers are running the content and leaves the less-frequent players and less power-gaming-oriented with reduced reward. There are going to be flaws in any system of flat reward per content, because you're never going to be able to tweak it right for all comers. I'll just say that I think you need to come up with something more dynamic on how you reward content completion.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Use the following topic to discuss Issue 13's The Merit Rewards System.
<ul type="square">[*] A new game system that allows players to earn tokens by completing Trials, Task Forces, Strike Forces, Story Arcs, defeating Giant Monsters, and more. The most challenging and time consuming tasks grant the most reward tokens, which can be redeemed throughout Hero and Villain zones for recipes, enhancements, salvage, inspirations and other game items. Merit Representatives will show up on your minimap in all undisputed city zones.[*] For more information about Merit Rewards: Read the Developer & Community Q&A[/list]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feedback is important to our development process, there are two types of feedback and both are helpful although some give us more insight and are more easily adapted into game changes.
Objective Feedback: Objective feedback is based upon what you as a user see or experience that other users may also see and experience. This feedback usually can be replicated easily as it involves facts and unbiased opinions. Example: When using the base editor items are sometimes getting caught in columns or pillars.
Subjective Feedback: Subjective feedback is based upon how you feel or experience the game as yourself. This experience may not necessarily be replicated because it is based on feeling and emotion. Subjective feedback is important to us but it is usually helpful if more information is present to describe what and why you feel the way you do. Example: I like the way the graphics look on my shield animation it gives me the feeling of being truly super-powered.
Are you reporting a bug from Issue 13? Please use this thread to report bugs, there is a format in the OP that you can follow to help you in your reporting. Issue 13: BUGS