Live Feedback: Issue 13 : Merit Reward System
By
1VB_FIST,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 18:56 in Developers' Corner
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I'm now downloading LotRO and will try it out as soon as the patching completes. It looks promising and I am likely to go Lifetime if I like it.
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I did the same, in November.
My opinion (I'm not stating this for anyone except myself):
At the time the promise of the Merit System and the way it would be brought about instead (merits replacing end of TF recipes instead of being an option) and watching half my global friends list cancel their accounts depressed me enough to seriously look at another game since the first time since Everquest.
Watching all the chickens come home to roost (Super-speed TFs, PuGs that exist to get the mission holder's arcs done, empty PvP zones, unobtainable or extreme scarcity of recipes on the market, rising prices) is still depressing.
This is still my favorite game of all time, just not for PuGing anymore. The patch on Test is an improvement. More needs to be done.
Sidenote: The "speed LGTF" I was on this weekend (I didn't realize just how speedy) was as about as fun as eating dirty socks. I already knew run of the mill speed TFs weren't my cup of tea, this made me want to swear off the TF outside of my SG forever. The "speed ITF" isn't as bad because there are objectives that have to be achieved inside at least the first mission. Earlier TFs like Positron, Hess, Dr Q at least have some defeat alls or other objectives. However, by and large, except for a "no stealth" TF marathon I joined or TFs I have personally run, nearly every TF I've joined since I-13 has been "speed" and it sucks. Merits have turned this into "City of Farming" and it was alarmingly predictable.
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Adding to my post above:
I am waiting to see where the developers go with the Merit System, and how they modify it. I am really hoping to see some improvement in Merit System within the several months. For the game economy and the game's long term viability, I believe it needs it.
I am also awaiting the Mission Architect as this will give me something new to work with and much, much more to work and play with in the future, and an alternative (at this point merits are not my goal) to Task Forces. While I enjoy the currently available story arcs, I am looking forward to new content.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
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Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
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Sidenote: The "speed LGTF" I was on this weekend (I didn't realize just how speedy) was as about as fun as eating dirty socks. I already knew run of the mill speed TFs weren't my cup of tea, this made me want to swear off the TF outside of my SG forever. The "speed ITF" isn't as bad because there are objectives that have to be achieved inside at least the first mission. Earlier TFs like Positron, Hess, Dr Q at least have some defeat alls or other objectives. However, by and large, except for a "no stealth" TF marathon I joined or TFs I have personally run, nearly every TF I've joined since I-13 has been "speed" and it sucks. Merits have turned this into "City of Farming" and it was alarmingly predictable.
[/ QUOTE ] Seriously I dont get all the hate for the speed tfs and such. Once you are level 50 and have done the tf/sf/trial at least once there is no reason to sit thru all of that. In the earlier part you complained about items being scarce but speeding thru tfs is actually supposed to help get items generated faster. Whether its your item you buy directly with merits or someone elses sold random roll on the market. I still think speed tfs are the way to go. I could see if the reason you started is that you are morally against killing off the already suicidial hostages but not every tf has hostages and the recent patch on test is supposed to help with the hostage killing.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
There's differing levels of "speed". For example, take the Manticore TF. Several of the stealthable missions would be just boring slogging through huge maps of Crey to get to the target. So I do stealth whenever possible (even when I'm doing it for XP on my path to 50). On the other hand, I got caught on a speed ITF, jumping from crystal to crystal ignoring the ambushes, and that wasn't a lot of fun.
I'm not a big fan of the Merit system...but to be fair, the "speed" focus was there before merits, it was just focused on a few exceptionally speedable tfs (Katie, Eden). Katie for the badge, ITF for the 35-50 range xp and influence...and on rare occassions other TFs for alts coming up. I am seeing a lot more other TFs running these days.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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You know, it's strange, but the introduction of merits to missions has actually taken away much of my enjoyment of the game. In fact, for the first time in 3 years of CoX, I've started checking out other MMOs.
I tried out WoW over the weekend (yeah, only now!) and found that it has many gameplay mechanics that make it superior to CoX. But the community sucks big time: there is a surprising number of illiterate griefers there. "Duel plz i let u win." (Do they actually ever successfully trick anyone with that line?) Combat's not much fun either. I got sick of the game in just two days.
I'm now downloading LotRO and will try it out as soon as the patching completes. It looks promising and I am likely to go Lifetime if I like it.
Anyway, back to CoH. As mentioned in an earlier post, I no longer play in teams since only the mish owner gets merits. Cooperative PvE, however, is the main draw of CoX for me. And I like RP-while-mishing too, but you'll appreciate it's silly to RP solo.
Another issue I have is that only story arcs award merits, making it painful for me to do a mish that is not part of an arc. I end up spending time searching for arcs to do rather than just enjoying whatever comes along. I wonder if I'm alone in this?
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Go check out the trailers for Aion another game by NCSoft. I think it is in beta now. I can't wait for this game to come out.
Well, merits are a good idea; however, the implementation and value assignment for recipe costs and TF/Trial/Arc rewards are way off base.
Recipe costs appear to be based on the going rates in the market from a player selling average cost. The inherent failure in this is also a scaling issue for recipe levels. Do you really think an average level 10-25 character will ever gain the ridiculous merit cost for some of those recipes, let alone one?
The merit system is an excellent system, it just needs to be reevaluated in scale of cost and reward. Furthermore, an economy that is not regulated will see exactly what you see right now in real life: SNAFU. When you let individuals and cartels dictate the cost of products, that are in theory on a drop rate or drop schedule, and the common populace (ignorant and particularly no-discipline spending consumers) determine an economy, its health will deteriorate as well as supply while inflation and eventually hyper-inflation occur. Price-fixing is out due to supply issues, so dont even worry about ebil marketeers.
Point being: Merit rewards for TFs, Trials, Arcs, and every other activity in the game they should be rewarded for are way off base. Merit costs for recipes are also way off base. I understand that there are uber recipes at low levels and mid, which begin to drastically fall off above 35-40, but IOs and IO Sets are the bee's knees now whether devs intend the game to be standardized with SOs still. A merit cost reevaluation is in order. If no, that's fine, but Mister D has it right: you will go to Hell for sure lol. Anyhow, Costs and Ratios really need to be examined more closely.
As it is, real life sucks for a lot of people and the game really doesnt need to mirror how poorly run the real economy is through under-sights and gross negligence on merit costs for recipes and rewards. When you apply a "reward" or a "status" symbol in anything, you will have an overwhelming majority trying to attain an unattainable, while the select few with the time and means will attain that which is desired and consequently create a oligopoly.
Enough of my banter. Simply put, merit rewards and costs need to be adjusted to a realistic level.
/brainfry end xmission
A whole bunch of 50's.
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Recipe costs appear to be based on the going rates in the market from a player selling average cost. The inherent failure in this is also a scaling issue for recipe levels. Do you really think an average level 10-25 character will ever gain the ridiculous merit cost for some of those recipes, let alone one?
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Something kind of struck me as I read this part. And I finally realized what's been bugging me about Merits, and in turn both the market, and invention system.
What is the developers goal for them? Do they want us hoarding merits til 50, and only then IOing out? Do they really expect players to random roll in the teens and early 20s when there is more crap than not, and then hope to put that crap on the market? I don't play Hero side nearly as much as I used to, but looking through the villain side, from just doing storyarcs, and never "farming" them, you're looking at a long haul just to afford a single recipe with merits. Is this the goal? Is this how the system is supposed to work?
Well, just as an idea that a friend of mine were bouncing off of each other to try to reduce the hero/villain side disparity:
1.) Give Wretch a strike force that is introduced at the end of the 'Oh, Wretched Man' story arc. You don't have to have completed it to get the SF of course, but like Hess in Striga, the fortunata contact from the arc will tell you to go speak to Wretch, who will have work for you and a group. The level range of Wretch's SF will be roughly equivalent to the level range of Positron's TF hero-side. As a suggested reward, somewhere in the 15-20 merit range.
2.) Give Barracuda a SF. This one is less thought out than the others, but it would be a mid-range SF that would originate either on Martial or Nerva. As a suggested reward, somewhere in the 20-25 merit range.
3.) Give Countess Crey a SF that will be introduced roughly the same way as Wretch's at the end of Kelly Uqua's story arc and also originate from the Crey compound on Nerva. This has the added benefit of utilizing the Crey more, which allows the developers to take advantage of resources they have already developed. As a suggested reward, somewhere in the 25-30 merit range.
4.) Convert Viridian's already existing story arc to a SF. Make it a requirement of the second to last mission that in order to proceed, the team has to defeat all of the council AV's that appear. In the last mission, instead of fighting the swarms of ballista, the team will have to defeat Ms. Liberty and the Vindicators. Or perhaps the Vindicators in addition to the swarms of Ballista, depending on how hard they want to make a high-end, end-of-game, Grandville SF. As a suggested reward, somewhere in the 30-35 merit range.
This gives the villain side 4 new merit-rewarding strike forces, doesn't unduly screw with the narrative structure of tf/sf construction in general, (ie, it is a zone power broker or a flunky of one that gives them), and reduces the disparity between the possible number of rewards offered on both sides.
Beyond this, with the conversion of Viridian's story arc, it would mean that the developers would only really have to construct 3 new ones from whole cloth, which would be less of a load on them and would probably be doable in a single issue. (Probably... I have faith considering they constructed the entire rikti war zone for a single issue.)
awesome.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
I like those SF ideas. CoV needs some more. I would not mind seeing a carnie SF. After all, fortunes wheel in ST Marts in basically a carnie stronghold. Lets have us helping Vanessa cause some trouble.
I also think they should make the Shadow Shard a co-op zone and have all those tfs co-op also. Just removed all those 'go to atlas and kill cot boss' type missions to a portal in the shard etc. This would give vills not only more sfs, but also another few zones..which already exist. (On that topic..a shard arena map please)
I agree with VBs thought on the merit system..its just out of whack.
Example.
Achilles Heel -res proc..they were/are about 200-800k, hero side. They are about 2-5 mil villain side. Yet they are..250 merits. How is that balanced and thought out in any way? I have 2-4 of these procs on some toons..that's 500+ merits.
On my way to lvl 50, i made about..300 merits, doing almost every arc in the game. That is just a ludicrous amount when you consider that a SO costs 8 merits...meaning you would need around 500 merits just to SO a toon at lvl 50.
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Something kind of struck me as I read this part. And I finally realized what's been bugging me about Merits, and in turn both the market, and invention system.
What is the developers goal for them? Do they want us hoarding merits til 50, and only then IOing out? Do they really expect players to random roll in the teens and early 20s when there is more crap than not, and then hope to put that crap on the market? I don't play Hero side nearly as much as I used to, but looking through the villain side, from just doing storyarcs, and never "farming" them, you're looking at a long haul just to afford a single recipe with merits. Is this the goal? Is this how the system is supposed to work?
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TLDR version:
a) There is no real end game in CoX.
b) IOs don't change your look at all.
c) IOs also matter little in PvP today.
d) Becoming stronger (able to kill more difficult stuff) and looking cooler are two major reasons why people play RPGs.
e) There is therefore no point in IOing out a 50, and hence little also in playing one.
f) IOs do make a difference before 50, however, as there's still the end goal of hitting 50 to gun for.
g) Level 30 IOs are almost identical in effect to level 50 IOs (save purples), suggesting that the devs intend for people to IO out by 30.
h) In that case, IOing out by 30-40 should be made easily achievable.
i) Currently, this is not possible unless you are willing to slot up weak sets, and mostly incompletely; you are willing to grind and grind; or you are able to cough up millions and millions of influence by level 40 to grab the increasingly rarer and pricier IOs on the market.
j) This is not fun at all. Knowing that purples > other sets > common IOs > SOs makes people in the know unsatisfied with SOs and commons.
k) It's silly to think that a casual player could purple out, but IOing out with decently powerful sets should certainly be a doable thing.
l) I am seriously losing interest in this game and have not played for weeks. It seems from reading this thread that many others are too.
I like windy orations version:
Something struck me while I was reading Victorious' post. Now I know why I'm so reluctant to play my 50 to max him out the way I've been planning to.
Unlike most MMOs, CoX has no real end game. Well, there is life at 50, sure, in that there are still more mishes to do. But there's no longer any incentive to play a maxed out hero or villain besides "I just like this character".
There's no boss you cannot beat unless you're a well-equipped 50 (well, maybe Hamidon?), no dungeon you cannot safely raid. There's no ultra rare sword or armour to lust after, nothing which when obtained would make you look distinctly more bad-[censored] or enable you to do things you couldn't possibly do before.
Yes, rare IOs - particularly purple sets - do give one an edge against everyone else. At least they do in theory. But (i) they don't help much in PvP, (ii) they are by design unnecessary, especially at 50, in PvE, and (iii) no-one knows you are now Captain Uber because IOs don't show up in your costume.
In that case, what's the point in playing a 50? To max out the character? Sure, but to what ends?
If, on the other hand, a player is likely to be able to max out on IOs by, say, 40, then there is at least a point to doing so. You'd have 10 levels of sweet mishing ahead of you, levels that you would laugh triumphantly through because of how strong you've become. Which is why my characters are all planned with level 40-41 set IOs in mind.
However - and this is where my Victorious-triggered epiphany comes in - however, as things currently stand, I am very unlikely to manage my dream build by level 38. Or level 40. Or even level 49. Because things cost too many merits, normal gameplay awards too few, and the market is asphyxiating. In fact, on some builds, I have serious trouble even slotting out one power with the IOs I want.
You'll realise I'm not even considering purples since I'm aiming for level 40s.
Since i13, in a vain effort to reach my goals by 38-40, I've been playing mission arcs solo (boo!) where once I used to PUG all the time. The more I do this, the less I play. In fact, I haven't played in weeks now. I logged on the other day, felt sick as all hell of the promised solo grind ahead, and logged out again without actually doing anything.
Without an end game, CoX is very much an alt-focused experience. I believe the devs have said as much before (no citation, sorry), and in truth I have a lot of fun creating and playing a large number of characters.
However, as things stand, it's no longer rewarding to play alts as a casual player. Before i13, I could log on any of my characters and play for a bit on a PUG, enjoying the team experience and secondarily working towards my IOs a little bit at a time. Or I could organise or join a short TF and have the excitement of a random roll at the end to look forward to.
Now, I can solo my missions, do a long TF (which I often do not have time for), do many short TFs (which means I lose the excitement of the random roll most of the time), or just ignore IOs altogether and PUG as before. Option four turns my stomach for some inexplicable reason, so I'm left with options one and three, which are much less palatable versions of my two pre-i13 options.
And then there's the problem of the 60-day WW's limit, which forces me to log on all of my 80-some or 90-odd alts every now and then to keep from losing everything I've been working towards. That's easily an hour of very boring work right there, which is way too much considering (i) I have little time to play and (ii) I'm a casual player for crying out loud. I finally decided to let it all go and just stop playing more than one or two characters at once, which decision has again cut into my enjoyment of the game significantly.
Unfortunately for me, I resubscribed for 6 months just recently, before the pain of i13 had fully hit me, so I'm definitely not going anywhere anytime soon. I may not be playing at all, but I'll still be here for a while more, grousing on the forums. 
Very good SF ideas. I like those alot. What I think needs to happen with the pricing structure is that they change all pool c to cost the same all pool a's and pool ds. That would fix alot of this. Just because one enhancement is good for one toon it could be just as worthless on another so it isnt fair to assign one a higher merit cost. All pool cs should be 200 merits. Random roll needs to be lowered to 15 merits trial roll needs to be lowered to 25 or 20. Pool a uncommon should be 50 and pool A rare should be 100. Pool D needs to be 200. Pool B should be 125.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Just to add a bit here, I will be trying to collect all the objective statements in this thread and posting the findings as close to completely objective as possible. Also, the subjective posts should not be frowned upon either as those will truly determine how the economy is as far as health. Economics is not just about revenue and cost. The biggest factor in economics is the subjective side from the person and people as a whole.
Other points I would like to attempt later are a possible merit exchange system for cashing in SOs. I mean come on, they cost 8 merits, we could get something back for them from a merit vendor and recycle them. Technically, there is an infinite supply for SOs and they can be bought with influence as can IO recipes. So the devs may want to rethink the SO system as well.
I have too many ideas running amok in my mind right now. I will try to sort them out and stimulate this thread some more in a non-sexual way lol. Great ideas so far though. Seems like there were a few epiphanies 
A whole bunch of 50's.
Hello everyone. I'd like to direct you all to this this thread I've started.
I've included the old and the new merit values for each task in the game and also preemptively answered some questions.
Regards,
Synapse
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Hello everyone. I'd like to direct you all to this this thread I've started.
I've included the old and the new merit values for each task in the game and also preemptively answered some questions.
Regards,
Synapse
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:O
Neat!
*EDIT*: First post after a redname. 
Virtue - @Kabuto & @Kabutops
Main heroes:
Dark/Psy/Psy Defender
Grav/Storm/Power Controller
Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Plant/Rad/Psi Controller
Earth/Rad/Earth Controller
Main Villains:
Ice/Cold/Sharks Corruptor
Elec/Shield Brute
Fortunata/Soul Widow
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Hello everyone. I'd like to direct you all to this this thread I've started.
I've included the old and the new merit values for each task in the game and also preemptively answered some questions.
Regards,
Synapse
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I don't think that the minor adjustments to story arcs are going to have a lot of impact on the issues that were raised in this thread. One Merit plus or minus won't compensate for the dwindling supply of under-50 Pool C's on the market.
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I don't think that the minor adjustments to story arcs are going to have a lot of impact on the issues that were raised in this thread. One Merit plus or minus won't compensate for the dwindling supply of under-50 Pool C's on the market.
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Agreed. Hopefully, many major changes are coming with i14.
Given the track record...I doubt it.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
objective: since the introduction of merits or lack there of,i have been forced to get a farm and farm it for drops and inf to pay the hugh price at the market. didn't use to be this way.
subjective:farming makes me feel dirty, shouldnt have to to get the things i had a chance at before.but with merits as hard to get and so time consuming its just easier to farm. on average i get 6-8 merits a week and i play for 2-4 hours a day. i play on infinity and tfs are hard to come by and even harder to complete.
i would like to see merits go away and drops be reinstituted. in the end merits will kill the market!
One note on "Farming"
My friends and I who've been here since beta get together once or twice a week. One day we have a theme team going. On the other, we get together with whatever characters / favorite toons (typically 50s) and just run door mission to door mission to radio mission to door mission.
If you run radio mission after radio mission---it's pretty equivalent to farming. Except in the end, you get a huge payout in xp. There are times that we'll do a farm mission...just becuase it's a 'farm mission.' Reason being, we're just in the mood to get together, chat, make fun or whatever.
Open map missions make it somehow easier to just 'socialize around this computer coffee table' and talk. We're not there for money necessarily---we're all 50 and generally out-fitted as we wish to be; we're not there for drops per se (as they don't seem to happen there anymore); and obviously not there for merits. And we're not there to exploit anything---radio missions at 50 are equivalent to any other 'farm mission' except with an actual payout. We do it because it's fun for us. Certainly not all the time---that'd drive us crazy.
On occasion, we'll run one task force or another with PUGs or just ourselves. It just depends on how WE wish to enjoy the available content of the game.
But, let any and all of the above be our choice to either "farm door missions" "farm radio missions" or "farm a whatever mission"---it's not like there's anything else to do in the game for our characters. And we can actually say, "We're enjoying the content of the game / that is designed INTO the game for where our characters are at."
~ Jonathan
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However, by and large, except for a "no stealth" TF marathon I joined or TFs I have personally run, nearly every TF I've joined since I-13 has been "speed" and it sucks. Merits have turned this into "City of Farming" and it was alarmingly predictable.
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No TF I run will ever be a "speed" TF.
It might require a break in the middle, so I can rest my eyes, however.
I don't mind working for merits, but I hate, hate, HATE this whole merit grind attitude. I've been in one "speed ITF" now (and I was assured by the principal that it was a badly run one, the rest are much better... I don't think he quite understood my objection), and would rather not ever repeat the experience.
This isn't to say I don't have certain recipes I'm want - but instead of working for all of my characters, I'm only doing two with complex builds, and the rest are going for simple builds (only things I can get easily). Merits are optional, and I opt *OUT.*
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