Live Feedback: Issue 13 : Merit Reward System
By
1VB_FIST,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 18:56 in Developers' Corner
Yeah, I was really happy with the merits- when I thought they were just for pool C.
Now.......wow- the villians side market needs help.
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Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
I would be interested in hearing the devs' current position on the whole purpose of the invention system.
The current mechanics of the merit system (and a few of the dev comments that have surfaced) point to a "continued development for 50s" model. If that's the case, then I'd say it's working as intended, although it needs a few tweaks.
If the goal was to make IOs more available to casual or even borderline-hardcore by circumventing the market, then it needs a serious overhaul. Yes, under the merit system you can get one of the really expensive IOs much faster than you could ever farm the influence for them, but at the cost of so severely restricting the supply of the mid-tier IOs that you have to merit-grind for them as well.
As a returning player who really enjoyed the market activity and build customization that inventions brought the last time I was here, the current state of IO availability and costs have really dampened my enthusiasm for the game.
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I feel more compelled to farm and grind than ever before. Which is not as much Fun for me.
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I feel pretty much the same way. CoX has definitely become - for me - a little less like play and a little more like work since the introduction of merits.
I'm still playing - heck, I even resubscribed for another 6 months recently - but it's partly because I have some amount of faith in the devs' good intentions and willingness to (sometimes) kill their own bad ideas.
And the merit system as it stands is perhaps rather a bad idea after all.
It's easy to say that IOs are unnecessary and we don't have to grind if we don't want to, but that completely misses the point. Given an opportunity to improve our characters, at least some of us will feel keenly the urge to take the opportunity. Whether we do this for an edge in PvP or just to feel more heroic in PvE or even for RP reasons is immaterial.
For some of us, maxing out a character - realising a character's potential - is fun. However, grinding - doing a small number of quickly-boring things repetitively - is not. When the system makes the second activity a virtual requisite for the success of the first, one is forced to either give up enjoying the first or else suffer the second.
It's damned if we do and damned if we don't.
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I hate the merit system...there are fewer sfs on villains so we have to do the same ones over and over, gets boring and no recipe drops has destroyed the market...it is next to impossible to find recipes on the market these days, even if you can afford them, they just simply are not available. Makes it very discouraging for me 
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It's not just the small number of SF's. It's the smaller number of merits rewarded for them as well. While I understand that they are all usually shorter than hero TFs, that isn't really something that a villain player had control over. If they're going to have disproportionate ways of earning merits, the cost of rewards should reflect that.
With every TF/Trial, you should at least earn enough merits to roll, and every 2-3 should net you enough for a recipe of your choice.
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I hate the merit system...there are fewer sfs on villains so we have to do the same ones over and over, gets boring and no recipe drops has destroyed the market...it is next to impossible to find recipes on the market these days, even if you can afford them, they just simply are not available. Makes it very discouraging for me
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It's not just the small number of SF's. It's the smaller number of merits rewarded for them as well. While I understand that they are all usually shorter than hero TFs, that isn't really something that a villain player had control over. If they're going to have disproportionate ways of earning merits, the cost of rewards should reflect that.
With every TF/Trial, you should at least earn enough merits to roll, and every 2-3 should net you enough for a recipe of your choice.
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People that say "the SFs don't give as many merits as the TFs" are forgetting something. I've run the numbers, and you can generate the same amount of merits in about the same amount of time regardless of whether you're a hero or a villain. You'll have to run a bit more content redside, but it should take about the same time. Here are my numbers. If you say "but most teams don't finish the content that quickly," then just extend the times to what you figure a normal team will finish in You'll still find that heroside and villainside offer about equal rewards for time spent.
Feedback on the merit system:
First, let us choose the level of random rolls. I'm not sure why this option isn't there in the first place, but it's only exacerbated an existing problem, especially redside. Want a Decimation recipe or a Touch of Death recipe from the TF or trial pool? Sure, you can get them, but only if you're willing to pay out the nose for a level 40 piece (one of the ToD triples is going for 20-30 million uncrafted redside right now). Your alternative is to bid less inf on a lower-level recipe, which might see one sale every few weeks to a month. Some of the ToD triples have "last 5" sales dating back to 2007. That doesn't seem to me like an indication of a healthy and active market.
Next, consider adjusting the price of a random trial pool roll. I'm not sure why trial rolls cost more than the task force roll (especially because they're worth on average less than a task force roll, and there are fewer recipes to choose from), but my biggest gripe is this: thirty merits is more than any of the respec trials give as a reward. Currently, the majority of task and strike forces give equal or greater merits than required for a TF pool reward roll. However none of the respec trials give enough merits for even one recipe. Combined with the higher initial cost of a random roll, this further disincentivizes players from choosing the trial pool roll option, leading to less supply making it to market.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I hate the merit system...there are fewer sfs on villains so we have to do the same ones over and over, gets boring and no recipe drops has destroyed the market...it is next to impossible to find recipes on the market these days, even if you can afford them, they just simply are not available. Makes it very discouraging for me
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It's not just the small number of SF's. It's the smaller number of merits rewarded for them as well. While I understand that they are all usually shorter than hero TFs, that isn't really something that a villain player had control over. If they're going to have disproportionate ways of earning merits, the cost of rewards should reflect that.
With every TF/Trial, you should at least earn enough merits to roll, and every 2-3 should net you enough for a recipe of your choice.
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People that say "the SFs don't give as many merits as the TFs" are forgetting something. I've run the numbers, and you can generate the same amount of merits in about the same amount of time regardless of whether you're a hero or a villain. You'll have to run a bit more content redside, but it should take about the same time. Here are my numbers. If you say "but most teams don't finish the content that quickly," then just extend the times to what you figure a normal team will finish in You'll still find that heroside and villainside offer about equal rewards for time spent.
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Oh no, that's not my argument really, I'm not pissed they reward less (though I get how you read that out of what I said), with the diminishing return on rewards it just makes it all the more frustrating trying to get them redside where less choices are available, and also, seemingly, less population willing to run TFs. I've been back in the game for about 3 months, in that time I've been able to get ONE pug SF during what I consider normal hours (5-10 pm EST).
The merit system has destroyed the market villainside, bottom line. With the hoarding and ability to buy exactly what you want there just isn't as much stuff flowing in.
There are NOT enough SFs villainside to make merit grinding interesting. At least hero side you can bounce among different ones for a change of scenery. What can you do villainside? Run yet another shark/cap/RSF/Ice SF, that's it. Oh wait... the SG one and the tree (laughable). Yay for variety. (LG and ITF are both sides I'm not bringing those in)
Yes the shard TFs hero side are WAY not worth the time in regards to merit numbers, but at least they are there as an option if you and the SG are feeling brave. (No opening the Shard to villains does not help the situation.)
One note though Victorious, its not that less people are running them, its just that less people are pugging them. If you're having trouble finding people to run the SFs you may just want to find a new SG. Get involved in one that is very active. Get involved in the correct global channels for your server. On infinity at any given day or time of day I can get on a SF no problem. I usually end up running 2/3 a night, not including respecs here and there.
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One note though Victorious, its not that less people are running them, its just that less people are pugging them. If you're having trouble finding people to run the SFs you may just want to find a new SG. Get involved in one that is very active. Get involved in the correct global channels for your server. On infinity at any given day or time of day I can get on a SF no problem. I usually end up running 2/3 a night, not including respecs here and there.
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If it wasn't for my VG I wouldn't ever run SF's it seems. Virtue, for being a very populated server, just doesn't have a whole lot of redside stuff going on. Even in our big LFG channel. I can always find a hero side TF to get into though.
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There are NOT enough SFs villainside to make merit grinding interesting. At least hero side you can bounce among different ones for a change of scenery. What can you do villainside? Run yet another shark/cap/RSF/Ice SF, that's it. Oh wait... the SG one and the tree (laughable). Yay for variety. (LG and ITF are both sides I'm not bringing those in)
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I also see the other extreme with the respec run.
Why run missions when you can run a respec?
I was no a pickup mission team the other day, all of us in the upper 20's. We ran a longbow mission then a rikti mission from a contact, killing the whole map each time. Kind of as a group, the whole team realized "hey, we could be clearing 2 mission maps AND getting 15 Merits if we start a respec run". The downside being that we couldn't add a new teammate if someone dropped between missions. But given the length of time commitment, it seems almost too obvious a choice in content.
Not to say 15 merits is way too generous for the respec, even at 10 or 5 it would be the same obvious decision compared to one person getting an arc bonus of 2.
But more to say that "normal" content just doesn't pay out *anything*. Once it's obvious how much you need Merits because of the lack of items for sale for Inf, leveling up by solely running Merit-content is the only thing you can do. Sad that so much content gets marginalized by being unrewarded now.
on the subject of Mayhem/Safeguard, I was running those yesterday to get a mayhem explore badge, and I wonder why I can't get Merits from them.
To finish a Mayhem from scratch requires 5 other missions, then the difficult mayhem itself. Is that not as much effort as any story arc in the game?
OK, if merits make rewindable content like TFs so much more rewarding than completing story arcs I agree it is a bad idea.
Also if you can always choose lots of merits over one random rare recipe that is indeed the death of the market. I see prices of 50 or 80 million for even the second- and third-best choices for IO sets on red side already and constantly a high demand and zero for sale, most often over the entire level range of the enhancement. If an hour or two worth of merits can buy you what 80 millions cant, the only things that will ever hit the market are accidental buys and those removed with a respec.
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I also see the other extreme with the respec run.
Why run missions when you can run a respec?
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For a team you are absolutely right. I run a lot of respecs 2-3 four or more days out of the week. The problem isn't with the respecs which can be failed but with the fact that story arcs are way under priced at 1 merit per 12 minutes. I think story arcs should be brought down to 1 merit per mission (2 if a defeat all) minutes to make them comparable and award those merits every few missions if not every mission to everyone on the team. I have a Blue side tank that I just got to 50 that has not done very many story arcs. I keep telling myself I should go back through Ouro and get those arcs done but merit wise it isn't worth my time when I could just run a respec.
Villain side arcs are particularly stingy and I really think the merit numbers need to be a little beefed.
I can really see a Mayhem safeguard awarding one merit per primary and side mission completed. Radio and scanner missions should not award merits but dropping a few for safeguards might give another reason to not just skip them(A practice I find boggling as they are great xp).
Master Gabriel
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way under priced at 1 merit per 12 minutes
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For those of us who like to actually play through the mission, and not stealth through every stealthable objective, it works out to be worse than that.
I don't know how you could fairly balance the stealth/invis and finish it fast vs fight-fight-fight crowd, it's similar to the speed TF argument. I would suggest at least increasing the story arc merits in many cases, the amounts awarded are anemic, and finding some mechanism to reward teammembers on story arcs.
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For those of us who like to actually play through the mission, and not stealth through every stealthable objective, it works out to be worse than that.
I don't know how you could fairly balance the stealth/invis and finish it fast vs fight-fight-fight crowd, it's similar to the speed TF argument. I would suggest at least increasing the story arc merits in many cases, the amounts awarded are anemic, and finding some mechanism to reward teammembers on story arcs.
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Yeah since I lead a lot of respec trials I under stand that. half my team just wants the merits and the other half wants xp. I cater what I am running to my teams tastes. If the team is mostly running for xp we clear. If the team is exemps we stealth a lot. I would like to see a merit reward multiplier for difficulty added. I am not sure their is a feasible non exploitable way to do this either but right now on speed teams it is all about the speed and their is little reason to go after other rewards.
so what about something like:
1 merit for completing any mission. (not counting hunts and deliveries.) also upon completion...
+1 merit if the mission requires killing everyone on the map
+1 merit if the mission can be failed (ie: time limits, escaping bosses, this includes Mayhem/Safeguard)
+1 merit if the mission contains a simultaneous-click objective
+1 merit if one or more AVs were defeated during the mission (not EB's downgraded, actual AVs.)
all of that awarded to every teammate who gets mission credit.
after all that, when you complete your own arc, you get 1 extra Merit. (yes, some arcs are worth more than others currently, but that's cause they're long or difficult and the list above will award those things already, and award them fairly to the whole team that overcame those difficulties.)
ok, that's a lot of merits relatively fast, but consider 2 things:
1) this actually awards beating a mission, not farming the same map endlessly. perhaps skewing what is the best form of farming.
2) it's not like there's enough stuff hitting market these days anyways. more merits -> more stuff -> more market use.
One thing that I would like to see is for the devs to finally add the Patron Arcs to the Pilars of Ice and Flame. Content on villainside is scarce as it is. I know there is the potential for respecs to be granted but they could make it be like a 1 time thing for the respec. Or have it set to not grant the respec if you do it thru flashback. I just need something else. Its boring as hell most of the time.
Also for heroside what ever happen to them adding the Calvin Scott TF back into the game? I remember they said they were going to do this at one point.
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
I agree.
The patron arcs can be pretty fun. It seems a shame to waste good arcs, especially on villain side.
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Long story short - the merit system is all wrong.
I think the overall concept is a step in the right direction, but, as of now, it's implemented all wrong:
Good part of the idea:
<ul type="square">[*]The concept that the Katie Hannon Task Force and the Quaterfield Task Force should NOT bestow the same reward upon completion.[/list]
The bad part of the idea:
<ul type="square">[*]8 merits for a Single Origin Enhancment - compare how long it takes to get 8 merits and how long it takes to get 30,000-60,000 influence/infamy. Multiply that by how many enhancments you need on a typical build and you have one screwed up system. Also, it could only 5 inf to buy one off the market, or even free if you wait for one to drop.[*]"Treat eveyone the same" - This is a completely unfair idea. The ITF is an excellent example of this. While some people take as few as 40 minutes to get 25 merits from this TF, others take as long as 3.5hrs. And yet both teams are rewarded equally. Not sure how that could be resolved, exactly, it's just really unfair.[/list]
I could probably go on and on about the bad ways this system was implemented, but I'm sure that's been done enough on this and other threads.
The merit system should be adjusted so that the Katie Hannon Task Force grants enough rewards for a random roll, like it used to, and the Quaterfield task force grants enough rewards to buy a couple specific recipes.
As more and more people spend time farming influence/infamy to buy TF-pool recipes from the markets instead of wasting time with the flawed Merit System, we're beginning to see prices which used to be 7-figures max climb well into 8-figures. Pretty soon, as we're already starting to see, recipes with thousands bidding but none for sale.
FIX IT! FIX IT! FIX IT! FIX IT!
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As more and more people spend time farming influence/infamy to buy TF-pool recipes from the markets instead of wasting time with the flawed Merit System, we're beginning to see prices which used to be 7-figures max climb well into 8-figures. Pretty soon, as we're already starting to see, recipes with thousands bidding but none for sale.
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You're attributing rising costs to the wrong reason - prices are rising because people are using merits [/i]instead of[/i] inf to purchase things, or aren't spending their merits on the random rolls like they used to in the days of TF rewards. Because many people are no longer taking random rolls - incidentally this "I only want this one item" mentality ends up costing them money in the long run - the supply they brought to market has diminished, making competition (and therefore prices) over existing stock increase. This also partially explains the price spikes in purples and Hamidon Origin enhancements (which was predicted before I13's launch, by the way) - as people are using merits to buy the IOs they want, they are left with more inf to spend on the things you cannot buy with merits.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Just my opinion, but I think most TFs/SFs should be broken into 2 or more "mini-TFs" which grant some merits upon completion, and unlock the next "mini TF" in sequence, which in turn grants a slightly better merit reward, and so on.
Allow people to team for an hour or 2 for a single mini TF, then meet again next week if they choose for the next one. The whole concept of a 4+ hr TF just excludes a large portion of the playerbase, and every required hour of play has a greater chance of something coming up and someone having to leave.
On another note, I *do* find myself looking over the list of set IOs and saving my merits up for the one I really want. One plus side of this is that it has resulted in me turning in merits on a lvl 50 to buy a lvl 10 -kb IO for my next alt, which is something I likely wouldn't have gotten...
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Allow people to team for an hour or 2 for a single mini TF, then meet again next week if they choose for the next one. The whole concept of a 4+ hr TF just excludes a large portion of the playerbase, and every required hour of play has a greater chance of something coming up and someone having to leave.
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You don't have to run a TF all at once.
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Allow people to team for an hour or 2 for a single mini TF, then meet again next week if they choose for the next one. The whole concept of a 4+ hr TF just excludes a large portion of the playerbase, and every required hour of play has a greater chance of something coming up and someone having to leave.
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You don't have to run a TF all at once.
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no. but you do have to commit to it with a single team. which can also tie up your character for a while if you're waiting for some of the team to regroup later.
a way to break it up would be to run a 2-hour TF and award some marker to the members. (ie, a badge, a clue, a piece of untradeable salvage like the heroside Cimerora entry arc, etc.) That lets them start the 2nd 2-hour TF, with the same team or with other people who have reached the same point in the story. You could reset the markers after the last mini-TF if you wanted to enforce the whole Epic from start to finish and not just replay one level.
(QR)
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm growing very weary of receiving gift cards from everyone. I really miss getting actual items from TFs.
I have been wondering when the red side market was going to see the boom predicted back in beta.
While I have been cautious about commenting on Merits. The further into this system the further I am having to go from my traditional "FUN" to earn these rewards. At 2 merits per Arc its going to take 10 Arc's to even get a random roll.
To me it seems you need a true grinding character now to be able to take advantage of this system. I feel more compelled to farm and grind than ever before. Which is not as much Fun for me.
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Infinity
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