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If a "regular speeden" team does this twice a day in 20 minutes, the normal Edenites who do this once a month are going to get swamped.
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So everyone can be angry with me, I'll confess to doing as many as 11 speeden runs in a night at my peak play time. And the day I did those 11 runs, I also made 7 Katie runs.
I'm sorry, everybody. I haven't run anything faster than an ITF in almost 2 months, if it helps. I don't have the play time I used to.
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
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To Ironblade: Eden gets completed in 10-15 minutes on average, no typo.
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Well, I don't believe this. I've done with this with different people, different SG's, etc and have never done it that fast. Not even close. I don't believe that many people are 'speed running' it when I know so many people who consider it the best TF/trial in the game and take their time.
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You need to believe this. We routinely do them is 15 minute or less. I'll see if I can dig up the screenshot I took of a sub-15 Eden Trial. After the Hunt, just skip everything except the Wall, Freeing the heroes, and defeating the Titan.
Catch me in-game - @blkfalcon
Neuronia - I want to add my thanks for writing this up. It's great, but disappointing, information.
So it seems that I'll have two TF toons - one for Random rolls and one for earning merits.
Catch me in-game - @blkfalcon
So... back to soloing Posi TFs?
50 merits/3 hours = ~17 merits/hour
which is also bout the hourly rate for 25 minute KHTFs if there was no penalty for consecutive runs in a limited time frame.
We don' need no stinkin' signatures!
Crap! Have to unload my wares soon.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
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After the Hunt, just skip everything except the Wall, Freeing the heroes, and defeating the Titan.
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You did mean Walls, as in plural, right? Rock wall and mold wall are both in Eden. Is one skippable?
Wow, this is a lot of DOOOOOOM, even for the CoH boards. The strange thing is that it isn't nearly as crazy of a revamp as people are saying. Basically it's finer grained rewards on the TFs (make the reward more closely match the length/difficulty), and the option not to be beholden to the RNG if you want. Frankly, I've run a lot of level 50 TFs since the Auction system was created and have never ever gotten a Numina unique (Did get a LoTG 7.5 once). I have also gotten a ton of Executioner's contract (but not so many Trap of the Hunter).
But if you don't like it, there's always the "roll a random reward" option, assuming you did a TF that wasn't trivially easy.
This is going to cut off supply in the market to a degree (especially for something like a Miracle unique), but it's also going to cut the demand off for the more expensive recipes. In addition, it should raise the prices on the utter crap recipes as their supply dwindles. Crap recipes might even sell for more than you can vendor them for. I don't think the supply is going to completely stop like some people think, there will always be people who try their luck with "random" and get crap.
Also, on a final note: The entire playerbase does not play optimally as a gigantic block. If that were the case, then literally the only builds you would see are FoTM builds and every run would be a speed run. In the real game, people play at their own pace. Sure there will be speed runners, but they'll be some small fraction of the playerbase as always (the same that quickruns Edens and Katies constantly now). If you think the market supply with stop entirely, you're wrong. If you think that it will be impossible to get on a TF team now because you aren't the right build you're still wrong.
Oh, I do question some of the Dev's price points however:
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Trap of the Hunter Accuracy/End: 150 Merits
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Really?
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Any new players to COX that happen to get in on a regular Eden team only to see their reward is 2 freaking merits for their time invested is going to be sorely disappointed. This goes for several of TF's/trials as well, but Eden is the most obvious example.
RIP Eden Trial
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They will not be disappointed if they do not know any better.
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Oh, I do question some of the Dev's price points however:
Quote:
Trap of the Hunter Accuracy/End: 150 Merits
Really?
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Maybe people buy a lot of those. For some odd reason. Or Posi had a spasm when he was typing that one in.
It seems to me that the system is going to make it more difficult to IO your character out as you progress from 35-50. Right now you can run an ITF from 35-50 and get about a lvl a run. That means you get 15 random recipies. Now you will get 375 merits, which equates to only 10 "rolls".
Removing the post TF random recipie ruins the entire system for me. I never understood why people complained about that process so much...
Question (sorry if it's been answered; I only have time to skim, not read as fully as I'd like):
When you run a Respec Trial, do you still get a window with options? If so, what are the options there? Random Roll, Respec, Merits? Just Respec, Merits? Or do you automagically get the respec and merits?
Alt-itis stole my soul!
The Annual Paragon City Gauntlet Marathon - Arc ID: 352887 (feedback appreciated)
Current Project: nothing specific, just general badge hunting right now.
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It seems to me that the system is going to make it more difficult to IO your character out as you progress from 35-50. Right now you can run an ITF from 35-50 and get about a lvl a run. That means you get 15 random recipies. Now you will get 375 merits, which equates to only 10 "rolls".
Removing the post TF random recipie ruins the entire system for me. I never understood why people complained about that process so much...
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I honestly think what they're trying to do is cater to people who enjoy grinding. Most people who are good at the "market-game" know that if you play the game normally, you'll get influence, and you can exchange that influence for goods on the market at a relatively fair price... but there are certain people that just flat out want the game to give them what they want after X amount of time.
The merit system will operate such that you can play for a certain number of hours and retrieve the reward that you were working for. I have no idea why these types of players make a distinction between the game handing out the reward and purchasing that reward from another player, but all evidence is that they resent having to pay another player for something that they think the game should have handed out to them.
I question whether catering to the grinders is a good thing, but my guess is that that horse left barn months ago at some conference table.
Given that we're stuck with that design goal, I guess the next question is what might have a decent implementation of that looked like that wouldn't obliterate the market? Does it look anything like the merit system at all?
I think a system that keeps the random drops, but raises the prices of recipes to much higher levels might have been acceptable. It would have meant that in all probability you would have already a) had your desired drop, b) earned enough influence to buy it.... but if you were truely unlucky, then... at just about the time that you had a legitimate beef that the RNG hated your guts, could take your merits and buy what you wanted.
But that idea is still probably way to different than what they've implemented to get a look at this point.
I'm not at all convinced that the merit system as they've implemented it can be "tweaked" in such a way that it won't obliterate the CH/BM market for Pool Cs.
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I honestly think what they're trying to do is cater to people who enjoy grinding. Most people who are good at the "market-game" know that if you play the game normally, you'll get influence, and you can exchange that influence for goods on the market at a relatively fair price... but there are certain people that just flat out want the game to give them what they want after X amount of time.
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- I guess I just question if the people "want to get what the want" understand that this will probably make it even more difficult to create those great "uber" builds.
This surprises who?
they've got no feel for and little enough understanding of the market.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Two questions: First, I have a couple characters I've been trying to IO out and who have run quite a few story arcs and TF's - will they receive retroactively awarded merits for story arcs already run (somehow I doubt it), and if not (second), will they be penalized for running those arcs again through Oroborous?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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After the Hunt, just skip everything except the Wall, Freeing the heroes, and defeating the Titan.
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You did mean Walls, as in plural, right? Rock wall and mold wall are both in Eden. Is one skippable?
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No, it should be plural. That's me being an engineer and not a typist 
Catch me in-game - @blkfalcon
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Given that we're stuck with that design goal, I guess the next question is what might have a decent implementation of that looked like that wouldn't obliterate the market? Does it look anything like the merit system at all?
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I posted a suggestion in another thread (the one specifically about the removal of random drops) that I think does some interesting things that potentially enhance the market as a mini-game. Pasting a little bit of it (I don't want to do the whole thing and get dinked for cross-posting...):
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My proposal on the random Pool C and D recipes is this:
Allow the merit store to actually be a store. Give it the ability to buy any Pool C or D recipe for 5 less than the cost of a random roll in that pool. Don't let it buy anything else - goodness knows, I don't want the market to dry up on common recipes as people swap them for merits. Pools C and D are the only places affected by this change, and therefore represent the limits of my proposal.
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This would give people who want random drops more incentive to use the fixed-price randomness (even if it's still not a great option, mathematically), give them a choice between selling for merits and selling for inf., create a new market mini-game with fluctuations around the value of recipes that can reliably be sold for 20 merits or 30 merits, allow players to share things that are worth merits with friends or alts (thereby removing what is being referred to as the alt-unfriendliness of the current system), and still time-limit the number of recipes entering the game consistent with the apparent reward-over-time goal. It also means that the current vendor trash shouldn't disappear entirely; it will just end up with a price-point around the value the market establishes for 25-35 merits.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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- I guess I just question if the people "want to get what the want" understand that this will probably make it even more difficult to create those great "uber" builds.
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The problem is that I don't think that'll be actually true for those few players who have decided that they will never, ever pay fair-market value for certain recipes. Those players were stuck running the same TFs over and over and over again, and no matter how much influence they amassed, they just couldn't get the one recipe they wanted, and they were pissed off about it, and the developers decided to listen. I suppose there must be decent number of them... or maybe one of the devs secretly agrees with all of their whining. Who knows.
It doesn't make it a good or wise decision though.
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Question (sorry if it's been answered; I only have time to skim, not read as fully as I'd like):
When you run a Respec Trial, do you still get a window with options? If so, what are the options there? Random Roll, Respec, Merits? Just Respec, Merits? Or do you automagically get the respec and merits?
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According to the write-up, you get a Respec or Merits. Anything else has to be purchased using the merits.
Catch me in-game - @blkfalcon
List addition
Give em Hellion, Billie heck,3 mission, 2 merits, elite boss 3k kelvin
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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It seems to me that the system is going to make it more difficult to IO your character out as you progress from 35-50. Right now you can run an ITF from 35-50 and get about a lvl a run. That means you get 15 random recipies. Now you will get 375 merits, which equates to only 10 "rolls".
Removing the post TF random recipie ruins the entire system for me. I never understood why people complained about that process so much...
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Uhh, isn't a random recipe 25 merits in the new system? How does that equate to 10 random rolls, and not 15?
Since ITF gives 25 merits and a random recipe is 25 merits *shrug*
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
Sorry for the double....not sure if it's been answered.
Since the reward window is thrown out, does that mean TF's can be done back to back to back with no 3 hour wait? If so, then in some ways then I see why they got rid of the random drop after a TF. If not, then, that's just stupid.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
Except you get less merits each time due to the punishment of returns. These devs are so smart, its so strange to see them false advertise, mislead and make VERY poor decisions on the implementation of something that COULD have been good. Now it just stinks like a smelly river.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Merits are subject to diminishing returns?
Holy crap no way.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
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After the Hunt, just skip everything except the Wall, Freeing the heroes, and defeating the Titan.
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You did mean Walls, as in plural, right? Rock wall and mold wall are both in Eden. Is one skippable?
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No, it should be plural. That's me being an engineer and not a typist
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Whew. I was going to kick myself...
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To Ironblade: Eden gets completed in 10-15 minutes on average, no typo.
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Well, I don't believe this. I've done with this with different people, different SG's, etc and have never done it that fast. Not even close. I don't believe that many people are 'speed running' it when I know so many people who consider it the best TF/trial in the game and take their time.
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Having been on a regular speeden team for a while that routinely broke 10 minutes and often broke 8 minutes, I'm not sure the numbers are off. I'll see if I can dig up the screenshot I took when my team completed Eden in 7 minutes 13 seconds. While that is not be typical, but the extreme performers blow the numbers for the average, and this can be seen on many of the merit reward numbers.
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Any new players to COX that happen to get in on a regular Eden team only to see their reward is 2 freaking merits for their time invested is going to be sorely disappointed. This goes for several of TF's/trials as well, but Eden is the most obvious example.
RIP Eden Trial