Discussion - Dev Diary: Designing Day Jobs Feature

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"Getting a badge for doing nothing isn't fun."

I'll tell you this right now: If this system went live, I'd get the badge before anyone here. Why? Cuz you're right: I'm a badger. Big freakin' deal. I'd do it at 10 days, 15, and gods forbid, 30.

That doesn't make it fun. That doesn't make it thematically sensible. That doesn't take away from the fact that the badge recording times are REALLY FRICKIN' OUT THERE.

Rewards for being logged out of a toon isn't "content". But that's what you're supporting, while turning a blind eye to the valid (and, I hope, equally constructive) complaints from the segment of the populace that knows WTH badges take to earn the MOST.

A reward for doing nothing is not a badge. You're right: Neither is Empath. Neither is Immortal. Neither are the vet badges. If I had my way, I'd see THEM removed from the badge system too.

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There have been mny comments about getting day job badges for doing nothing, well I don't feel that is completely true. You need to decide which badge you want to go after and then make the effort to goto the right place at the end of every game play session and log out..... you have to go to your JOB when you're done playing hero or villian. So you're getting a badge for going to your job.

Consider this: for defeat badges you need to kill a certain number of foes, many times 100 bosses. For a day job badge you need to log your toon out of the game at a certain place for a certain number of days. But how many times do you have to logout? As few as one if you stay away for 30 days or maybe 36 times after having play sessions of 4 hours each. Then you can move on to the related second one to get an accolade and a temp power. Bonus for you.

In the end you are doing somthing for the badge, about as meaningful as getting any other badge in the game.... like going to Perez with a high lvl toon to clear out skulls was hard or running a quick katie or a 45 minute ITF. So many things have been trivialized by speed demons, personally that sucks the fun out of my game.

For the die hard badgers who don't like vet badges or others that they think should be removed from the system: you all need to get together and decide which badges you all don't like as a community and then subtract those from your totals before you compare e-peens, I don't think there is any other way they are coming out of the game.



I like collecting badges, it is a level of fun for me. I see nothing wrong with the current plan for day jobs. I really liked the write up. Its a cool new flavor to the game. I in no way shape or form got the impression that we are getting day jobs at the expense of other content. There are plenty of new things coming.

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he said, "e-peens".


ROFLMAO!

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Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars

I honestly feel that this system could be improved by becoming an either/or system. If you're a casual player and want more XP, log out on the streets and be 'on patrol'. If you want the normal XP progression and would rather unlock badges and costume pieces (clearly a more devoted player mindset), log out in one of the interior locations. Thoughts?

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The fun of badges is in the earning not in the chasing. 30 days on offline badges pushing the earnings so far apart as to be unnoticable, thus they're not a very fun badge concept.

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I just wanted to say that this is the best argument I've seen against the 30-day decision. Vet badges aren't fun, they're milestones; if these are supposed to be fun, they need to be moved a little further away from the award latencies of Vet badges. That is, something that can be measured in weeks (2-3) rather than months.

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My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.

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DJ [day jobs] the players are reward for not playing.


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I have to disagree with this mentallity. It has come up several times. Day Jobs is NOT do not play and we reward you, Day Jobs is WHILE you are not playing, you can still progress to a reward. In all the time you have had an account, most of your time is offline. Now with I13, that offline time will slowly build up some extra flavor and badges to your toon. DAMN YOU DEVS FOR GIVING ME MORE!

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Didn't have time to look through all the posts to see it mentioned, but could we get like a construction worker day job for heroes? You'd get it be logging out somewhere in King's Row or somewhere else with contruction. Maybe the reward is a minor health increase or something idk.

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Another thing.... just keep all your toons logged off for 3 days... call your contact or whatever, drop your mission and get double xp! lol

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Ugh, even I didn't think about that. I personally detest the way players use that "feature". It was meant to bypass buggy missions so you wouldn't have to call a GM to fix things. It was NOT meant for risk free xp on lesser played characters.

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Another thing.... just keep all your toons logged off for 3 days... call your contact or whatever, drop your mission and get double xp! lol

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Ugh, even I didn't think about that. I personally detest the way players use that "feature". It was meant to bypass buggy missions so you wouldn't have to call a GM to fix things. It was NOT meant for risk free xp on lesser played characters.

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Didn't the announcement say that it was only for mob kills?

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In addition to all of the Day Jobs, every character is "On Patrol" after they log out of the game. When players log back into Paragon City or the Rogue Isles they will gain 1 bar of double experience (when defeating enemies) for every 24 hours they are logged out. A player can earn up to 10 bars of double experience this way. Double experience is shown as a blue portion of your experience bar. One thing to note is that if a player has any experience debt, the debt will be removed first before any double experience is applied.

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Bolded part relevant.

Also, I'm pretty sure the system doesn't remove debt before the rested xp starts accumulating. I think you have to work off debt (at the normal rate) before you get double xp. Work through the red bar, before getting to the blue.

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Didn't the announcement say that it was only for mob kills?

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In addition to all of the Day Jobs, every character is "On Patrol" after they log out of the game. When players log back into Paragon City or the Rogue Isles they will gain 1 bar of double experience (when defeating enemies) for every 24 hours they are logged out. A player can earn up to 10 bars of double experience this way. Double experience is shown as a blue portion of your experience bar. One thing to note is that if a player has any experience debt, the debt will be removed first before any double experience is applied.

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Bolded part relevant.

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That's one possible interpretation, but it might also be shorthand for "when doing any activity that would normally award XP". i.e. "to clarify, you do not get free XP from this, but rather the XP you would normally earn is now doubled for the duration".

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The Badge Hound's lament that they need to get every badge should be vigorously ignored by the development team, for, in the end, it's a demand that the devs do not put in so much content that they can't do it all. In the end, it's a brake on the development of the game. It's the equivalent of demanding an amusement park that's not so large that they can't go on every ride in a single day.

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Wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

No badge hunter in this thread up until your post has suggested removing the system entirely. There are those that want the times reduced and those that want the badges removed, but no one mentioned the reward system itself.

There is also calls for clarification of a few points (like what level 50s are going to get for being on patrol).

Having issues with the badge aspect of the system does not equal people wanting the content removed.

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Another thing.... just keep all your toons logged off for 3 days... call your contact or whatever, drop your mission and get double xp! lol

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Ugh, even I didn't think about that. I personally detest the way players use that "feature". It was meant to bypass buggy missions so you wouldn't have to call a GM to fix things. It was NOT meant for risk free xp on lesser played characters.

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Didn't the announcement say that it was only for mob kills?

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Even if it were only double xp for mob kills, there are other considerations with the mission dropping. Namely, the salvage drop bonuses. I could see entire accounts being made that devoted to mission dropping for salvage.

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Yeah I was wondering if they had Postal drivers, or Private Eye (detective) day jobs?
Dont remember seeing it but, I assume they have scientist dayjobs with a science origin.
I was thinking you ought to able to log out at PocketD for a Dj, waiter, host, singer or dancer.


Just thinking of some origins I had already used for some heroes I play.

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50's on Freedom--12+ Lone Eagle INV Tanker, Crey Avenger NRG Blaster,
Dnase EMP Defender, Paradox? GRAV KIN Troller,FireFox FIRE Blaster,
Irish Ember FIRE EMP Troller, Marble ST Tanker, Archangel FIRE Kintroller

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"Getting a badge for doing nothing isn't fun."

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For *you*. It's great fun for *me.*

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We all play the game. The completist/collector mentality is just as valid as the Social Networker or PVPer.

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Rewards for being logged out of a toon isn't "content". But that's what you're supporting, while turning a blind eye to the valid (and, I hope, equally constructive) complaints from the segment of the populace that knows WTH badges take to earn the MOST.

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I reject your implication that badge hounds have more expertise in game design simply because this mini-game involves badges.

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Badgers have more expertise when it comes to badges than anyone else in the game. This includes the developers. Just because the developers have created the badges doesn't mean that they fully understand the implications behind the badge hunting/collecting mentality. In fact it has been proven that Positron and the rest of the developers do NOT understand this group of players.

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A reward for doing nothing is not a badge. You're right: Neither is Empath. Neither is Immortal. Neither are the vet badges. If I had my way, I'd see THEM removed from the badge system too.

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If you can see why Empath is a broken badge, then a rational person would ignore it. If you can see why the badges associated with Day Jobs are not like the other badges, then a rational person would ignore them. If you're claiming you have the inability to simply ignore it, then you are admitting you have a problem and are in the same company with the one who admits they have an OCD.

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Actually, the system hasn't been put into place. Now is exactly the right time to get the badges fixed. All you have to do is look at the resistance Positron is exerting to NOT change the Empath badge.


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Zombie, NEVER encourage the populace to ignore each other. Because at the end of the day, all that encourages is ignorance.

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Reread please. I said that the *lament* should be ignored, not the hounds. The lament is a demand that all badges should be obtainable on one toon. And that lament is a straitjacket to development of content *and minigames* such as badging. It is that straitjacketing of game development that should soundly be ignored.

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Nope, you are asking that those who enjoy the badge system the most should be ignored.

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I'm just saying make badges as a result of doing stuff, not as a result of NOT doing stuff. I can't see how anyone, regardless of "hardcore badger" status, could be objecting to that.


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I am not a hardcore badger, but I understand your point. However, the point of doing something for a badge, kinda blows itself in the foot when it comes to "spend time in X zone badges."

How many people have gotten the "spend time in zone" badges without actually being at their computer? (Incase it's an exploit, I am not stating how to do it.)

Or, the infamous damage badge trick? Which also lets you not log off, go to sleep, and wake up with a badge or two.

Isn't this the same principle as staying in one place and actually logging off?

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I'm actually pretty infamous in the badge section for fighting against all your rebuttals in this post.

I've asked for removal of the auto-log prevention for years. I've been consistent in this plea.

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Another thing.... just keep all your toons logged off for 3 days... call your contact or whatever, drop your mission and get double xp! lol

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Ugh, even I didn't think about that. I personally detest the way players use that "feature". It was meant to bypass buggy missions so you wouldn't have to call a GM to fix things. It was NOT meant for risk free xp on lesser played characters.

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Didn't the announcement say that it was only for mob kills?

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Even if it were only double xp for mob kills, there are other considerations with the mission dropping. Namely, the salvage drop bonuses. I could see entire accounts being made that devoted to mission dropping for salvage.

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Hmm.
My initial concern when the Day Job system was first announced was that it would end up possible to "farm" them by creating multiple characters. The 10 day limit seemed to curtail most of that, and giving the rewards at the end of missions was another way to limit it. Even if you can autocomplete a mission every now and then, is switching characters around to do so really worth it? You could do it at the most once every 3 days per character, and it doesn't really take too much time to get a random salvage drop by playing regularly instead. It'd seem to be a very small benefit, and not really worth setting up several characters with Day Jobs for.

However...
It sort of depends on how the Day Job bonuses "stack", and on how their duration is measured.
If they do stack, and if the duration is in-game time rather than real-time, then you could end up with a situation where you could have multiple Day Job bonuses, which might *all* trigger on a mission completion. Since it only takes a very small amount of time to login/autocomplete (especially radio missions which would be an unending supply of missions), each bonus would last for *a lot* of mission completes if setup in this way.

So, where's the limit for when it starts to become overly "farmable"?
I'd say that 1 random salvage every 3 days (per character) isn't really much to bother with.
But... 2 random salvage, 1 enhancement, 1 large insp, 2x inf bonuses, plus whatever else they come up with ("Below is a list of most, but not all, of the Day Jobs available"; Recipes? Merits? Prestige? Ponies?) might have crossed that line.


So, this suddenly pops up on my list of concerns again.
How is the duration of the buffs measured (real-time, in-game time), and is it possible to have more than one of them?

If the bonuses are an all-or-nothing affair where you only get them after 10 days of logged out time it should be possible to make them mutually exclusive, but that wouldn't be as easy if they gradually accrue (if logged out 1 day you get 10% of the duration). "So, you had gotten your Professor Day Job bonus maxed out, and then happened to crash during a Portal mission? Sucks to be you!!"

Though it might be possible to set up the end-of-mission bonuses so that you only get one of them when the mission completes...

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I honestly feel that this system could be improved by becoming an either/or system. If you're a casual player and want more XP, log out on the streets and be 'on patrol'. If you want the normal XP progression and would rather unlock badges and costume pieces (clearly a more devoted player mindset), log out in one of the interior locations. Thoughts?

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I'm not sure that's the best idea either. I'm pretty sure there are people who will want both progress to their Day Jobs and get Rested XP (and I would guess that number is higher than the number of people that (fairly) strongly want to complete all content on one character).

The people that really want to run more content on one character always have the option of staying in debt (my first hero/villain stayed in perma-debt for prolonged periods of time for this specific reason). It might be a bit trickier now if you want to run all content (with added content, "XP smoothing" (still don't like that name), and soon Rested XP), but it should still help a lot. We now also have Oroborous that can to a degree help with running missed content.
Also, wanting to run *all* content on *one* character is a fairly extremist position (it is often nice if you can see some new content if you start a second character, so it should probably not be trivial to see *all* content on your first character. That means that you'll generally need to run alts to see all content, and this is something that is also encouraged by these systems.


Anyway, it feels to me like these new systems have a focus on increasing retention among certain groups of players (like players toward the more "casual" end of the spectrum), so a big question is: What will serve this purpose the most, leveling a bit faster or seeing a little more content per level? That's not a trivial question (and also varies with exactly what content is missed; not all content is created equal), but I'm inclined to believe that the On Patrol system would be a net positive among this group, especially since content/time would tend to remain approximately the same, and progressing at a higher speed can have quite a significant psychological effect if you do not play "very often".


Are there possible drawbacks by adding Rested XP?
Yes. But I'm not convinced that it is a *bad* thing to add (and making it possible to opt out of everything you don't like is not always the best policy).

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Didn't the announcement say that it was only for mob kills?

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In addition to all of the Day Jobs, every character is "On Patrol" after they log out of the game. When players log back into Paragon City or the Rogue Isles they will gain 1 bar of double experience (when defeating enemies) for every 24 hours they are logged out. A player can earn up to 10 bars of double experience this way. Double experience is shown as a blue portion of your experience bar. One thing to note is that if a player has any experience debt, the debt will be removed first before any double experience is applied.

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Bolded part relevant.

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That's one possible interpretation, but it might also be shorthand for "when doing any activity that would normally award XP". i.e. "to clarify, you do not get free XP from this, but rather the XP you would normally earn is now doubled for the duration".

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It actually seems pretty explicit to me. And, if indeed it is modeled after WoW's rested xp, you only get double for mob kills. Quest xp isn't increased.

On the subject of farming mission drops (for xp and/or Day Job bonuses), is it really possible to make any kind of significant headway by dropping one mission every 3 days?

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Didn't the announcement say that it was only for mob kills?

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In addition to all of the Day Jobs, every character is "On Patrol" after they log out of the game. When players log back into Paragon City or the Rogue Isles they will gain 1 bar of double experience (when defeating enemies) for every 24 hours they are logged out. A player can earn up to 10 bars of double experience this way. Double experience is shown as a blue portion of your experience bar. One thing to note is that if a player has any experience debt, the debt will be removed first before any double experience is applied.

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Bolded part relevant.

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That's one possible interpretation, but it might also be shorthand for "when doing any activity that would normally award XP". i.e. "to clarify, you do not get free XP from this, but rather the XP you would normally earn is now doubled for the duration".

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It actually seems pretty explicit to me. And, if indeed it is modeled after WoW's rested xp, you only get double for mob kills. Quest xp isn't increased.

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It does, and it is very possible that you are correct. However, sometimes people end up phrasing things a bit incorrectly, so I wouldn't take it as a given (possible and maybe even probable, but not a guarantee).


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On the subject of farming mission drops (for xp and/or Day Job bonuses), is it really possible to make any kind of significant headway by dropping one mission every 3 days?

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It's not really the reward/real time that matters, it's the reward/invested time.
It doesn't take very long to log in and autocomplete a mission, so the threshold for when it becomes time efficient to do so is rather low. Once it is time efficient, you can set up multiple characters (over a hundred if the gains are significant enough) to take advantage of it, and at that point the rewards/real time can also become significant.

Some of the rewards are obviously less meaningful at lower levels (and it is possible that there is some form of level limit on participating in the first place), and this would limit how much the system could be exploited (since getting 100+ characters to higher levels would not be an insignificant time investment).

But if the rewards/invested time is significant enough, you don't even need all that many characters to profit from doing it.

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No badge hunter in this thread up until your post has suggested removing the system entirely. There are those that want the times reduced and those that want the badges removed, but no one mentioned the reward system itself.

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But, as with the veteran rewards, it appears they need some kind of flag to determine who gets what, and the badge/accolade system is the easiest way to do that. Sure, they could come up with an entirely new system that duplicates exactly what we already have with badges and accolades now, but that seems like a big waste of time. Why can't badge hunters just separate "collector's badges" from "flag badges" in their minds instead of essentially asking the devs to waste development time doing the same thing?

You say that no one is against the reward system itself, but don't you think people could just as easily want to collect Day Jobs as badges? What is it about a badge that makes it different from any other reward? Just because something is called a "badge", that somehow makes it more collectible than other rewards, and requires the devs to make it relatively easy to obtain?

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Ok take this in the best possible light, no true harshness intended...but:

If I can't have a day job as a reporter and/or Newspaper photographer, thats just just EPIC PHAILURE right there. I mean seriously, come on, thats just like not launching with capes!

On Villains side you already have the WSPDR building for it.

Also sadly lacking are the options for Billionaire/induralist/playboy probably the single most common day in all comics.

Also: Ruler of my own tiny European/African/Asian/Island/undersea nation? In the comics they're as common as telemarketers.

Instead we get Mortician? Name me a comic book hero/villain who was a mortician? Shopkeeper?

Have some respect for your source material! :-)

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You can't tell people "be a collector, of some stuff." That's incompatible with the collector mindset, and a good game designer should acknowledge the target audience they are targetting. If the devs are targetting people who care enough to pursue some of the badges with no meaning beyond collection, and will happily ignore all the ones that are designed to be out of reach, they are targetting a phone booth: there aren't bound to be lots of people like that.

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Really? So stamp collectors don't collect stamps unless they can have every stamp ever made? Coin collectors don't collect coins unless they can have every coin ever made? Heck, some people like collecting junk simply because they like collecting things, and not because they want to have everything ever made in the entire world. In fact, I would think a lot of collectors would be disappointed if they ever got everything because then there would be nothing more to collect.

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Gotta catch 'em all!

"Pika-pi?"

BACK IN THE CAGE YOU OVERRATED LIGHT BULB!

"PIKA-EEP!"

If you make things to collect... there will be the small number of people that will try to collect them all.

Not all of them will be patient. And it's not up to them how long it takes to get them. They just wish they were.

That is all.

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Thank you, City of Heroes, for giving me a superhero social network combined with amazingly smooth game play. Petitions signed with realistic expectations.

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No badge hunter in this thread up until your post has suggested removing the system entirely. There are those that want the times reduced and those that want the badges removed, but no one mentioned the reward system itself.

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But, as with the veteran rewards, it appears they need some kind of flag to determine who gets what, and the badge/accolade system is the easiest way to do that. Sure, they could come up with an entirely new system that duplicates exactly what we already have with badges and accolades now, but that seems like a big waste of time. Why can't badge hunters just separate "collector's badges" from "flag badges" in their minds instead of essentially asking the devs to waste development time doing the same thing?

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Actually they don't have to come up with a new system that does exactly what these badges do:

There are badges that are not visible, are not counted towards the the badge count, yet functions as gatekeepers for different things. Case in point: completing the other faction's mission for the Valentines event awards one of these invisible markers.

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You say that no one is against the reward system itself, but don't you think people could just as easily want to collect Day Jobs as badges? What is it about a badge that makes it different from any other reward? Just because something is called a "badge", that somehow makes it more collectible than other rewards, and requires the devs to make it relatively easy to obtain?

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I'm sure people would love to collect day job badges. However the length of time proposed is too much.

People collect the in game souvenirs, yet they are not visible to others so that could be a personal record. Day jobs could have been like that. Day jobs could have been a special title that you could go to a trainer or one of the "professionals" related to the day job to apply to your character. The badge system didn't need to be used visibly.

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You can't tell people "be a collector, of some stuff." That's incompatible with the collector mindset, and a good game designer should acknowledge the target audience they are targetting. If the devs are targetting people who care enough to pursue some of the badges with no meaning beyond collection, and will happily ignore all the ones that are designed to be out of reach, they are targetting a phone booth: there aren't bound to be lots of people like that.

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Really? So stamp collectors don't collect stamps unless they can have every stamp ever made? Coin collectors don't collect coins unless they can have every coin ever made? Heck, some people like collecting junk simply because they like collecting things, and not because they want to have everything ever made in the entire world. In fact, I would think a lot of collectors would be disappointed if they ever got everything because then there would be nothing more to collect.

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I think a lot *more* collectors would be disappointed if you found an item of the kind that they collect, but that they don't have yet, and waved it in their face saying "you like it? huh? huh? well too bad, you can't have it! nyah nyah! you should be happy with the ones you have already, it's not like you need every X in the world!".

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