Discussion - Dev Diary: Designing Day Jobs Feature
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2008-10-09 16:16 in Developers' Corner
I can see it now. "Hey why don't you go grab your main tank and we will help this guy get his MoSTF badge" - "Sorry I can't I'm working on a badge so I can't actually log in and play, or it will take me too long to get it". /sigh
Badges should be about showing your commitment to the game. It's about getting rewards for your hard work and dedication not to mention patience in farming completely annoying tasks. This idea rewards you for the exact opposite. Don't play, don't help people out and, certainly don't run a heal farm night after night to get Empath or an Illusionist farm and we'll reward you for your lack of effort.
I knew we were heading down the wrong path with the silliness of crafting badges which require you to make thousands of IOs even though a vast majority of them won't get used. But this is going even further down that wrong path.
Day Jobs should be about helping people with limited time keep up with those people who have more time to spend in-game. It's clear the Devs are playing WoW and Eve Online because these ideas are pulled straight from those games, heck the double-xp buff is EXACTLY what happens in WoW right down to the Blue XP bar to indicate how much double XP you've earned.
You have so many opportunities to take what others games do and turn it up a notch or provide a unique spin, certainly the additional buffs and rewards are a great idea, but you need to seriously reconsider what you feel is an acceptable time table and/or farm requirement to get these things. After all, it's suppose to be about gameplay.. not craftplay or loggedoutplay
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I can see it now. "Hey why don't you go grab your main tank and we will help this guy get his MoSTF badge" - "Sorry I can't I'm working on a badge so I can't actually log in and play, or it will take me too long to get it". /sigh
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I like nice round numbers, so let's assume in that scenario that you log in your main for 2 hours to help out. Let's further assume that you do this 2-3 times a week and it works out to doing it 12 times in the course of a month, which means that your character has been played an extra 24 hours. That means that you'll earn your offline badge a WHOPPING one day later than you would have otherwise. Big deal.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Ah, the day has finally come to pass. Me and my buds played this little game before CoH came out called Earth & Beyond. It used a cool and (at the time) unique death penalty system that called XP debt. In thier system, a character 'worked off' the debt when they were logged out. A way to encourage characters to take a break and wind down, when falling into a 'death spiral'.
When CoH came out and we started playing, we liked that the Dev's had taken half the system from Earth & Beyond but had always wondered why they never used the logged out aspect of the system.
"One thing to note is that if a player has any experience debt, the debt will be removed first before any double experience is applied."
It took almost five years, but I see they finally got the other half of the system added in... hehe.
There has been alot of back and forth about the merits and pitfalls of Day Jobs. Personally, I like it. Like many folks I think 30 days logged out might be a little excessive. But, I like the system, overall.
Just remember. Much like the Invention System. If you dont want to participate in the system, you dont have to.
I really like the Day Jobs (Especially that the costumes don't need to be unlocked) But I do have a fairly major concern, that is... when managing my Day Job's progress - having to:
1. Login and make sure which Day Job I'm working on for that character.
2. Travel to one of the Markets - To make sure my stuff doesn't go 'POOF'!
3. Travel back to my "Day Job spot" for that character.
4. Log out (wait the 30 secs), and repeat...
If they're going to set these up in 30/60 day increments, I really hope they get the "issue" with the Client checking/contacting the Market Server at login "fixed".
Seriously, we should be able to see the blue message = "X items sold" (or whatever), each time we Exit to the Login Screen and then "Re-"Login into an Alt on that server.
As it is, It only seems to do this properly - when I Exit to the Desktop, then Re-Launch the game.
I think it will occasionally also work properly - if I Exit to the Login Screen & then Log back into an Alt on a different server than I was just on. But, I'm not certain that works reliably.
Day Jobs are going to make the whole deal of - Having to go and click on a Market NPC, and then wait for the Market UI to load up, in order to make sure that each specific Character's Market slots don't get wiped...
Its going to be a MUCH more noticeable headache/PITA with Day Jobs coming into play.
Right now - you can Logout near a Market & it's not all that big a hassle.
But, that will definitely change when your Logout Spot actually makes a tangible difference
Hopefully they'll do something about this...
There would seem to be a variety of ways to handle this, doing away with the "market wipe at 60 Days" being the most preferable.
IMO, just having it check that you've logged into your Account (within a certain time period) would be the most player friendly solution.
Especially since they're putting in this Reward/Bonus for NOT logging in Characters - it would seem to make sense that this current market setup/policy - runs contradictory to this new game feature.
(Regardless of whatever reason it was originally implemented - I've heard all the plausible reasons & I'm not arguing that there wasn't a necessarily a good reason/justification/idea behind &/or for it initially).
At this point it just seems to be in conflict with the spirit(?) of the "Day Jobs" Feature - which BTW, I'm not slamming at all. I really like what I've read about it so far.
I don't know how else to put it - the mechanics of "Day Jobs" appear to be very much at odds with the current incarnation of the 60 Day Market "Inactivity Wipe"...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.
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I'm with the party that thinks that 30 days per badge is a bad idea. The article claims there are 12 day job and more coming.
This means it's going to take at minimum of 260 days to earn 12 badges which assuming you don't actually play the character at all. If you reduce the number of days to 10 it would only take 120 days to earn 12 badges, which is a bit more reasonable but still quite a bit. Personally I would like to see the count be 7 days per badge which would be 84 days or 12 weeks for 12 badges, makes it seem a lot more reachable for both the casual and hardcore gamer. However like they said this is not all of the day jobs available and the more you increase the number of badges the more unreasonable 30 days becomes.
Ok, I just spent the morning reading the entire thread, so I could hear all the opinions.
So you know where I am coming from, I am a casual gamer that plays once or twice a week. I have a job, a spouse, and a life that precludes sitting in front of a computer screen for 8+ hours a day. Don't get me wrong, if I could do that, I probably would because I love COX.
However, what this means is that I frequently fall behind my friends and SG mates in both levels, accolades, badges, invention sets, etc. It can be discouraging to watch characters I started at level 1 with zooming far ahead of me, making me feel a bit like a second-class citizen in the pecking order that is the game.
The way I see this is as a bone thrown to casual gamers like myself. This is our moment in the spotlight to get the shiny first. The truly dedicated gamers get everything else first, don't begrude us casual types this little perk. (Everyone else was saying me! me! me!, so I thought I would join in 
)
Honestly, I don't see the point in the outrage I have read so far. Play an alt, make a new character. While you are doing this, your badge hound is working away at his day job. I agree with the other posters that from a RP persepctive, it is ludicrous for any character to have all the jobs. I understand the "want to get the shiny" mentality, I really do, but that is not what Day Jobs are all about IMHO.
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Looks like a good system. 1 year for all the badges seems like a pretty straightforward design. Shouldn't be too hard to do, particularly if you have a lot of alts. Two thoughts:
- What's the unit these are tracked in, or, more specifically, what "counts"? If I log off for an hour do I get 1/720th of a badge or do I have to be logged out for a full day?
- Fashion Designer seems a little wrong the villain side simply because of the flavor of their Tailor. Plastic Surgeon or ID Maker seems a little more fitting.
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of course its not hard but im being penalized for playing the toons i want these badges on
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No, you're not penalized at all. This is purely optional. So if you insist on playing a single character 24-7, then you won't earn progress on anything.
Of course I think most people have more than one character, and many work, sleep, and eat, so they'll earn these automatically by just going along as normal.
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Exactly.
~ Infinity Heroes ~
Dark Voltage - 50 NRG/NRG/EM Blaster
Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
Silent Shadow Blade - 50 Katana/SR/BM Scrapper
Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
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Seriously, we should be able to see the blue message = "X items sold" (or whatever), each time we Exit to the Login Screen and then "Re-"Login into an Alt on that server.
As it is, It only seems to do this properly - when I Exit to the Desktop, then Re-Launch the game.
I think it will occasionally also work properly - if I Exit to the Login Screen & then Log back into an Alt on a different server than I was just on. But, I'm not certain that works reliably.
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The message stops showing up if you have "too many" things on the market. The display system essentially isn't able to handle a large number of items properly.
So, "how" you login shouldn't matter, it's a question of what (how much) the characters in question have on the Market.
I don't know how else to put it - the mechanics of "Day Jobs" appear to be very much at odds with the current incarnation of the 60 Day Market "Inactivity Wipe"...
Only for people who NEED to have their first badge the very first minute possible. And that's for people manipulating the market for extra storage, so I'm not crying for them anyway.
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I knew we were heading down the wrong path
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What you consider the wrong path is not indicative of what others (including myself) believe.
If its broke, don't fix it... I like the chaos!
I knew we were heading down the wrong path with the silliness of crafting badges which require you to make thousands of IOs even though a vast majority of them won't get used. But this is going even further down that wrong path.
No one is required to get these. My character builds for our supergroup, so the crafter table and memorization badges are great for me. But if you are just feeding a Gotta Get Them All mentality, you are the one being silly, not the game developers.
If you reduce the number of days to 10 it would only take 120 days to earn 12 badges, which is a bit more reasonable but still quite a bit.
It doesn't matter one stinking bit how long it's going to take to get 12 day job badges because you're not supposed to have 12 on the same character.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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If you reduce the number of days to 10 it would only take 120 days to earn 12 badges, which is a bit more reasonable but still quite a bit.
It doesn't matter one stinking bit how long it's going to take to get 12 day job badges because you're not supposed to have 12 on the same character.
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Exactly how I see it. Lowering the number just allows people to do this, which seems pretty much against the point.
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If you reduce the number of days to 10 it would only take 120 days to earn 12 badges, which is a bit more reasonable but still quite a bit.
It doesn't matter one stinking bit how long it's going to take to get 12 day job badges because you're not supposed to have 12 on the same character.
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But four or five are okay? What's the demarcation line?
See, having a badge for "each" day job doesn't make sense. Let's say, three years down the road, Beef Cake cracks his knuckles, and shows off all of his Day Job badges.
One hero can have 12/20/50 day jobs? At the same time?
It's nonsense, right?
So, you'd be in FAVOR a singular Day Job badge, whose title could be replaced like the Patron badge, or the MacComber badge, right? Why should a hero potentially have 20 day jobs? It should be one.
Right?
@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE
Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
Turg Fiction: IX is now LIVE on Architect Entertainment!
I tend to look upon badges like this: You should get badges for doing things, you shouldn't be doing things to get badges. So, a badge thats is awarded for crafting lots of things is intended for characters who spend a lot of time crafting. Exploration badges are there for people who enjoy exploring the zones, Task force badges are there for people who wanted to do a Task force etc...
I think new badges have to be designed around that sort of criteria, rather than 'How fast can someone who just wants the badge, and has nothing else left to do, get the badge'.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
I would also like to voice my objection to the 30 days per job timer. I would like to see the times required for these badges lowered to something around 10-15 days. My reasoning is if the devs continues to try and release three issues a year ( i know only 2 this year) that puts the realse of a new issue on average between 4-6 months. Therefore a player could have all the badge content done for one issue before the next issue is released. This way some badgers, such as myself, can have a sense of accomplishment between issues and not have more and more badges show up, burying us, making us feel like you can never catch up (like with veteran reward badges).
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I knew we were heading down the wrong path with the silliness of crafting badges which require you to make thousands of IOs even though a vast majority of them won't get used. But this is going even further down that wrong path.
No one is required to get these. My character builds for our supergroup, so the crafter table and memorization badges are great for me. But if you are just feeding a Gotta Get Them All mentality, you are the one being silly, not the game developers.
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And for those of us with legitimate mental disorders (obsessive-compulsive collecting habits)? What benefit is gained from making us wait, inactive, and penalize us for playing the game we want to play it?
And not everyone wants to make more alts, nor do we want to play all the alts we might already have.
(As for "Gotta Get 'Em All," yes, I've played all the Pokémon games. For every single one, I catch everything that's available in the game... then buy a $20-40 cheat device to get those that are from the alternate copy or some kind of event rewards, because it's the only way I can relax in the end.)
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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It should take time to earn those. I worked three years at a garage, five years doing retail, and 7 years at my current Journalism/PR gig. I consider myself able to slip back into those prior roles without trouble. Your character shouldn't need to forget the skills learned in his prior career, but it should take some time to earn those skills.
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I tend to look upon badges like this: You should get badges for doing things, you shouldn't be doing things to get badges. So, a badge thats is awarded for crafting lots of things is intended for characters who spend a lot of time crafting. Exploration badges are there for people who enjoy exploring the zones, Task force badges are there for people who wanted to do a Task force etc...
I think new badges have to be designed around that sort of criteria, rather than 'How fast can someone who just wants the badge, and has nothing else left to do, get the badge'.
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Agreed!
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Perhaps the devs are leaving room for the system to be expanded in the future?
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It was already said that this wasn't the complete list at launch, much less ever.
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Apologies for the subtlety 
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
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I knew we were heading down the wrong path with the silliness of crafting badges which require you to make thousands of IOs even though a vast majority of them won't get used. But this is going even further down that wrong path.
No one is required to get these. My character builds for our supergroup, so the crafter table and memorization badges are great for me. But if you are just feeding a Gotta Get Them All mentality, you are the one being silly, not the game developers.
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And for those of us with legitimate mental disorders (obsessive-compulsive collecting habits)? Why benefit is gained from making us wait, inactive, and penalize us for playing the game we want to play it?
And not everyone wants to make more alts, nor do we want to play all the alts we might already have.
(As for "Gotta Get 'Em All," yes, I've played all the Pokémon games. For every single one, I catch everything that's available in the game... then buy a $20-40 cheat device to get those that are from the alternate copy or some kind of event rewards, because it's the only way I can relax in the end.)
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I feel for you, but you can't expect the entire MMORPG community to revolve around making you able to relax. In order to give you comfort, they'd have to make a broken system that allows people to get all these rewards in a much shorter period.
And for those of us with legitimate mental disorders (obsessive-compulsive collecting habits)?
OCD patients playing MMOs and then complaining that said products obsess them is like alcoholics going to bars and complaining when served alcohol.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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It should take time to earn those. I worked three years at a garage, five years doing retail, and 7 years at my current Journalism/PR gig. I consider myself able to slip back into those prior roles without trouble. Your character shouldn't need to forget the skills learned in his prior career, but it should take some time to earn those skills.
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You shouldn't have to. But you have one day job. Does your business card say "Garage Monkey / Register Monkey / Ambulance Chaser Journalist?" No: It says "Journalist". You have ONE day job, not many.
Omitting the plethora of badges would NOT impact your ability to invest time in those other skills. Behind-scenes tracking doesn't require badge markers. So you CAN work on those other skills, or show that you HAVE worked on those other skills and can acquire the accolades associated with them, without having to suddenly change your career for it.
@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE
Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
Turg Fiction: IX is now LIVE on Architect Entertainment!
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Perhaps the devs are leaving room for the system to be expanded in the future?
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It was already said that this wasn't the complete list at launch, much less ever.
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Apologies for the subtlety
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Sorry 
Been dealing with so many people no reading the article or adding their own spin to it in this thread, my sarcasm detector is shot.
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A system based on PAYING to NOT play the game?
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I'm getting so tired of this mischaracterization.
Do you currently demand that you not be charged for the time you don't spend playing the game? I spend roughly 36 hours out of each 168 hour week playing the game; that other 132 hours is wasted. Gone. I'm sleeping, working, or doing something else. Every minute I'm not logged into City of Heroes I still have to pay for. It's $15/month whether you spend 1 hour a week or 23 hours a day on the game.
All the Day Jobs mechanic was intended to do was fill the gaps when you're not playing the game. It's a freebie that wasn't intended to alter your playstyle except for where you log out after each session. Now, that 132 hours that I'm not logged into CoH each week actually works toward something in the background.
And none of this even addresses the question of alts.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.